Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

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Helpless
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Helpless »

Sent saves to Pav to check on airbase replacements.

Took a look at the saves provided. I was not in charge of supply code, so it was quite interesting for me as well.

First of all air bases do not follow normal replacement routines as usual units, they get all replacement during aviation support phase, which means:

- There will be no messaged in supply log if something is missing.
- Since it happens before production it is important what is the size of the pools before logistics.

As it expected in BI British manpower pool is limiting factor, but there is another issue - air bases try to pull the whole chunk of required aviation support. I.e. if you set it to 100% - 250 element x 10 men = 2500 men. In the save provided British pool is just below 2000. In such a case it will get none. So it may get at least something if TOE is set to lower value or on AUTO if some AC are in.

I found another issue with British/CW pool mismatch for the BR air base squads, but it is not related to support/av support.

We will try to improve it in future patches, but for I now I advise to track BR manpower pools in BI scenario and set airbases to smaller TOE (and keep increasing each turn) or AUTO if they have some planes.

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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

Happy to help Psv.

As per my previous agreement on WiTE testing happy for you to send me £100 for the glitch I've found to the same bank account [;)]
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Smirfy »

The British manpower shortage is interesting. The Royal Navy, Army and RAF all grew in size right to the end of the war. The actual shortage in manpower was in two areas. Trained infantry for the rifle companies to replace losses and the exponential increase in the need for men in logistics the deeper 21st army group got into Europe. Over 40% of the ration strength by the start of 45. Fighter Command and Bomber command had large surplus's by 45. Like I have said before the staff of the allied air forces was light years ahead of any other command in WWII if they put down a base it was operational in under one game turn. I'm glad the code is getting looked at the Allied air staff simply did not cross their fingers every time they established an airbase
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

Agreed Smirfy
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

Attacks by the Canadians and Brits almost take Messina on Turn 10.



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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

With Sicily almost at an end and many forces still in Africa preparations have been on-going for a few weeks now for follow up invasions.

This is my first time of planning these in WitW so I'm unsure if I'm being too cautious or ambitious! I have messed up some if the timings of my invasions with some of the latter invasions prepping quicker than the earlier ones.

At present weather permitting the following is planned:

Corsica - as soon as weather clears - I FF Corps: 1 x Div, 2 x Rgt

Sardinia - 3 weeks time - V British Corps: 2 x Div, 1 x ARM Div, 1 x ARM Bde

Salerno - 2 weeks time - VI US Corps: 2 x Div. X Br Corps in follow up with 2 x Div and 1 x ARM Div.

Crotone - Prepping very slow. ETA 2 months - 7th US Army: 4 x Div, 1 x ARM Div, US 82nd ARB will support.

In short not happy with how I've ordered things and prep times but lot's of lessons learned for the future!




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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Smirfy »

Speedy I would check the withdrawal schedule and. Review your plans
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

Yeah as I say I'm not happy with my planning on this as I've messed up the order and mis-judged the prep rate of certain forces. Too late now and that's part of the reason why I'm doing this against the AI - to go through these teething problems and learning now before PBEM!
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by LiquidSky »




You do know that the size of the port effects how fast it gets prep points, right?

So Crotone = level 1 port = very slow.

As well, the number of units effects how long it takes to prep. You can prep a regiment much faster then a division.



EDIT: Misunderstanding, I thought you were prepping in Crotone, but it appears after further review that you are invading Crotone.

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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

Does the damage of the port also affect the prep rate? The Crotone invasion are loading up at Catania which is still damaged

As say not happy with how I've planned things but it's first time I've done this and in effect a test run. I may re-order some things but I have a small window and need to invade before winter.
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Seminole »

Corsica - as soon as weather clears - I FF Corps: 1 x Div, 2 x Rgt
Sardinia - 3 weeks time - V British Corps: 2 x Div, 1 x ARM Div, 1 x ARM Bde
Salerno - 2 weeks time - VI US Corps: 2 x Div. X Br Corps in follow up with 2 x Div and 1 x ARM Div.
Crotone - Prepping very slow. ETA 2 months - 7th US Army: 4 x Div, 1 x ARM Div, US 82nd ARB will support.
In short not happy with how I've ordered things and prep times but lot's of lessons learned for the future!


I've yet to see a good reason for making an early invasion of Corsica and Sardinia. I'm ready to be proven wrong, but they strike me as mistakes, and I've made my opponents pay.
Why fight the Italian OoB when by invading the mainland (after July) first you get two trigger chances (the invasion itself and then the presence of a supplied hex on the mainland) to get Italian surrender? When the Italians surrender (and with the BG Italy scenario the Germans can't pack in more CV to Italy to try and stop it) you get that OoB fighting on your side in most cases (certainly in BG Italy). If the Germans left behind defenders the Italians won't liberate the entire islands themselves, but it takes no prep points to air transfer some airborne forces to help them out. Just plan on shipping up one corps HQ to oversee the operations and get the Italians+airborne supplies. Italians+airborne+TFs will take down the islands unless the Germans have made a serious commitment, in which case the 'half-ass' invasions you're planning now would be suicidal (in a grand campaign with the full western OoB at Germany's disposal).

Don't fritter away your weight advantage by spreading yourself too thinly.

Again, because you're playing the BG Italy scenario the Germans are playing with a limited OoB, the best way to take advantage of that is maneuver and disrupting their supply lines to reduce their unit range and magnify their lack of map counters. Prep regiments/brigades to land where he ain't. By the time he arrives/repositions you should be able to unload more than he can bring. Put your follow on forces on ships the turn before you plan to invade (but keep them in port so they get supplies! Just not the same ports you're prepping invasions unless you're willing to suffer the prep point cost), this way reduces nasty surprises about port capacity and you should be able to get the follow on forces positioned on a hex behind your invasion TF. With the 4x CV multiplier for hanging onto beachheads and one or more TFs offshore a brigade should be able to hold on in the event he has a unit next to your invasion site. But if you're coming in with at least 4 TFs losing one beach won't be the end of the world. He's not going to have the forces to kick off all four beachheads in the first turn.

Invasion planning table:

Image

The historical landing site at Salerno is a loser. Terrain is on the defender's side, unlike The Heel. That flat terrain with lots of coastal nooks and crannies for TFs to slip into and add their weight make it the battlefield of choice in my book. If panzers want to come tangle with my tanks and planes on clear terrain - let them! The Heel offers rail lines you can drop your temp ports onto, it also has lots of airbases already, and depending where you put your beachheads you can easily accommodate all of Tactical Air Force to aid the push on Foggia (once your air support gets in place... whenever that is...)

By turns 5 and 6 a lot of the Luftwaffe is withdrawn in this scenario, so you don't really have a naval interdiction threat that you would have to consider in the grand campaign (wherein you have more available naval patrol assets too, they'd just need to be rebased in Africa so they could assist).
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

Tempted to re-start things I think as I've messed up my future invasions too much for me to be happy.

Also unsure on what the manual says with regard to prep:

"The number of APPs that may be accumulated in a single turn is dependent on the size of the port and varies with the size of the unit as follows:

§§ Add truncated (port value/2)
§§ Add truncated (54/size of forces in hex) where each combat unit in the hex has a size value where Division=9, Independent Brigade=5, Regiments and Broken down division units (1/ 2/ 3/ regiments and brigades) =3 and a permanently motorized unit has 1 added to the size."

Take my Catania prep.

Port is size 4 = 2 APP

I've 2 x Divisions there (54/18 = 3 APP)

Total = 5 x APP not the 6 they've accumulated? Am I missing something?

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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Corsica - as soon as weather clears - I FF Corps: 1 x Div, 2 x Rgt
Sardinia - 3 weeks time - V British Corps: 2 x Div, 1 x ARM Div, 1 x ARM Bde
Salerno - 2 weeks time - VI US Corps: 2 x Div. X Br Corps in follow up with 2 x Div and 1 x ARM Div.
Crotone - Prepping very slow. ETA 2 months - 7th US Army: 4 x Div, 1 x ARM Div, US 82nd ARB will support.
In short not happy with how I've ordered things and prep times but lot's of lessons learned for the future!


I've yet to see a good reason for making an early invasion of Corsica and Sardinia. I'm ready to be proven wrong, but they strike me as mistakes, and I've made my opponents pay.
Why fight the Italian OoB when by invading the mainland (after July) first you get two trigger chances (the invasion itself and then the presence of a supplied hex on the mainland) to get Italian surrender? When the Italians surrender (and with the BG Italy scenario the Germans can't pack in more CV to Italy to try and stop it) you get that OoB fighting on your side in most cases (certainly in BG Italy). If the Germans left behind defenders the Italians won't liberate the entire islands themselves, but it takes no prep points to air transfer some airborne forces to help them out. Just plan on shipping up one corps HQ to oversee the operations and get the Italians+airborne supplies. Italians+airborne+TFs will take down the islands unless the Germans have made a serious commitment, in which case the 'half-ass' invasions you're planning now would be suicidal (in a grand campaign with the full western OoB at Germany's disposal).

Don't fritter away your weight advantage by spreading yourself too thinly.

Again, because you're playing the BG Italy scenario the Germans are playing with a limited OoB, the best way to take advantage of that is maneuver and disrupting their supply lines to reduce their unit range and magnify their lack of map counters. Prep regiments/brigades to land where he ain't. By the time he arrives/repositions you should be able to unload more than he can bring. Put your follow on forces on ships the turn before you plan to invade (but keep them in port so they get supplies! Just not the same ports you're prepping invasions unless you're willing to suffer the prep point cost), this way reduces nasty surprises about port capacity and you should be able to get the follow on forces positioned on a hex behind your invasion TF. With the 4x CV multiplier for hanging onto beachheads and one or more TFs offshore a brigade should be able to hold on in the event he has a unit next to your invasion site. But if you're coming in with at least 4 TFs losing one beach won't be the end of the world. He's not going to have the forces to kick off all four beachheads in the first turn.

Invasion planning table:

Image

The historical landing site at Salerno is a loser. Terrain is on the defender's side, unlike The Heel. That flat terrain with lots of coastal nooks and crannies for TFs to slip into and add their weight make it the battlefield of choice in my book. If panzers want to come tangle with my tanks and planes on clear terrain - let them! The Heel offers rail lines you can drop your temp ports onto, it also has lots of airbases already, and depending where you put your beachheads you can easily accommodate all of Tactical Air Force to aid the push on Foggia (once your air support gets in place... whenever that is...)

By turns 5 and 6 a lot of the Luftwaffe is withdrawn in this scenario, so you don't really have a naval interdiction threat that you would have to consider in the grand campaign (wherein you have more available naval patrol assets too, they'd just need to be rebased in Africa so they could assist).

Thanks Seminole. Yes As my above mail suggests I'm not happy with my planning and now I understand a lot more about the mechanics, what's needed where and by when etc I think I'll re-start this scenario.

Even 'little things' like in my mind I now know which airbases on Sicily I'll be converting to which Air Commands (based on plane numbers, types and size etc), how to better utilise the system with regard to airbase support, where to watch out for which units are withdrawing and when (hence affecting future planning), awareness of amphib prep and port size etc etc
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

I'm going to re-start this scenario
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Smirfy »


I would wait until they sort out the transport losses in this patch before you restart. Ive just had to shelve my latest game.
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

I'll re-start anyway. I'm classing these AI games as prep for the real deal against Homo Sapiens anyway [:)]
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Joel Billings »

Where are you losing transports? Are you moving in generally friendly water, or a lot of neutral water?
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Smirfy »


As soon as i leave port every couple of hexes. Does not seem to matter which hex whether its 2 or not. I have created an additional airforce of patrol aircraft and it does not make a difference. This patch is a retrograde step. The last patch was much superior gaming experience by far.
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Speedysteve »

Oddly I'm not seeing this Smirfy. As an example in my latest new BG Italy start I transferred 2 x Div and 2 x Bde from Tunisia to Sicily in either neutral or WA controlled waters with no transport loss
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RE: Battleground Italy - vs Axis AI

Post by Smirfy »


Wait till you invade Italy. I honestly hope you are right but two games I have shelved due to losing 6,000 men in the space of 3 3 hex jumps Liquid Sky moves. Maybe Im just unlucky but like Sefton I'll bet you two packets of smokes your boys suffer the same. If you experience this believe me the airfield support bug will seem trivial.
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