Fall Gelb

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

I agree with Orm about leaving Saarbrucken empty for reserves: Saarbrucken= 8-4 MOT, 6-3 INF. Clear coal hex on Netherlands/Belgium border (reserves plus ENG)= 8-6 Mech, 9-4 INF, ENG div. The 5-4 MOT with the SP ARTY on the Danish border. The 3-1 GAR SW of Stuttgart, 5-1 and 4-1 in Stuttgart (the 4-1 should be railed to Copenhagen when possible). 7-4 MOT with 3ARTY, 1x7-4 INF, AA ARTY with 4ARTY. Alpine unit in hex just to west of Frankfurt. 6-4x2 INF in hex west of Bremen.

What div's are available for breakdown purposes? Reserving a 5-3 INF for this purpose, possibly the 5-4 MOT which then will be replaced with something else on the Danish border.

Available for Poland: V. Leeb, 7-4 INF, 7-3 INF, 6-4 INF, 6-3 INF, 5-3 INF, 4pt FTR, Do17E, Do17M, reserves to Poland: 5-1 GAR, 4-1 GAR, 5-4 INF(not positive about this one yet).

Air: NAV in Lubeck, FTR3 in hex SW of Bremen, Ju88 in hex SW of oil, ATR in oil hex, 5pt FTR(E4) in clear resource hex on Neth/Belg border, 5pt FTR(E2) in clear hex west of Frankfurt, Stuka in Frankfurt, Stuka in forest hex SE of Frankfurt.

Naval: Everything in Kiel except AMPH, TRS, cp's...put those in Konigsberg.

warspite1

Reserves must go in a city and you know they are disorganised so cannot be used in Sep/Oct (unless you re-organise)?

I have placed a 5-3 in Bremen for Breakdown.

What about the two divisions? These are currently in Kiel although you have moved the TRS and AMPH to Konigsberg?

Okay this is what I have so far - apologies if I have missed anything.

There is a Ju-52, 7-4 INF and 5-strength fighter + the units set aside for the Polish front.

Please let me know and we can move onto the Poles.

[Jagdtiger14]

Yes, I know reserves come in disorganized. I forgot they have to come in a city...sorry.

Ok, shift like this: In the resource hex on the Belgium/Neth border put the 3pt bombardment ARTY, move the 4pt ARTY to where the 3pt was. Move the 7-4 INF one hex west to the resource hex. The reserves 9-4INF and 8-6 Mech can go in Dusseldorf. So, in summary...in the resource hex you have the ENG, 3pt ARTY, 7-4INF, and 5pt FTR (5pt FTR maybe shouldn't be there...maybe move it to Cologne?), in Dusseldorf the AA gun and open for reserves, in the city west of Hanover (Essen?) is the 4pt ARTY and 7-4 MOT.

Air: Sorry, I wrote ATR...the Ju52 goes to the oil hex. The 3rd 5pt FTR I didn't see...put in with Rundstedt. I also didn't see the extra 7-4 INF...put it in the hex west of Bremen, along with the 7-4 I mentioned for Poland and take the two 6-4's there and put them on the Polish front.

Naval: Put the AMPH, 2cp's and TRS into Konigsberg (think this max's the port?), and the rest of the cp's in Memel, any extra cp's to Kiel. I assume the Allies (other than the Poles) can not reach Konigsberg or Memel with air?

Comments: Are there any divisions off board (not the two in Kiel) that can be placed on the map if a corp is broken down to do it?...ie, any more INF div's or MOT div's available?

Also...I would like other players to comment on the German set up.

Polish set up: 6-4 INF west of Posnan, 6-4, 6-3 in hex SE of Konigsberg, 7-3INF, v. Leeb in resource hex NE of Kat, 5-3INF in clear hex NW of the resource hex, 6-4INF in MTN hex west of Kat. 4pt FTR with v. Leeb, Do17E with the 6-4 west of Posnan, the Do17M right where you have it...hex SW of the Do17E.

[warspite1]

There are no more breakdowns until the next production step.

Right here is your Order of Battle. I will keep open for a while for any further comment, but as most people seemed to prefer a "Poland less Lite" I suspect that this is what we will go with (unless anyone convinces you of an alternative or two).

[warspite1]

I think you would need to be brave for this one - although the units in the west are undeniably powerful. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the various weather and dice possibilities.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think you would need to be brave for this one - although the units in the west are undeniably powerful. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the various weather and dice possibilities.

You need to be a gambling man. [:D]

One, small, downside with this strategy is that it will likely cost a lot of oil during end of turn to reorganize all those oil dependent units.

[Jagdtiger14]

In that case, the 5-3 can go in the hex SW of the 6-3 in E. Prussia. Why do you say brave?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think you would need to be brave for this one - although the units in the west are undeniably powerful. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the various weather and dice possibilities.

You need to be a gambling man. [:D]

One, small, downside with this strategy is that it will likely cost a lot of oil during end of turn to reorganize all those oil dependent units.

warspite1

Well the fact we are not playing with Oil probably helps then [:D]

The options in play are those we use and confirmed in Post 15 for anyone interested in following this.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

In that case, the 5-3 can go in the hex SW of the 6-3 in E. Prussia. Why do you say brave?

warspite1

Because, if I am totally honest I would not launch a single attack in Poland with what I have to hand.

- Maybe I will get lucky with ground strikes but mostly single stacks that reduce my chances
- No divisions to take losses (even the Germans can roll a 1 in Poland!)
- If a 5:1 you could lose 2 units and because of the lack of coverage that could be major problems to stop overrun of your disorganised aircraft.
- No automatic victories - every attack will have an element of risk (there's always some risk when you get to Lodz and Warsaw, but you don't expect to be on the receiving end at the outset).
- Only a weak HQ to reorganise units.
- No choice of combat table even if the Poles set up outside a city.
- The stated goal was getting the resources. This is far from certain with the units to hand.
- There is, unless you get incredible dice, no chance of taking Poland and that means the Poles get their reinforcements.

I suspect you are going through the west real quick - but what if you get unlucky with the weather there?.....

But those are just my thoughts ahead of this exercise - I may be talking total sloblocks.

[Orm]

The options in play are those we use and confirmed in Post 15 for anyone interested in following this.

I know. I just made that comment because I know how oil expensive it can be with such a strategy in oil games.

[Jagdtiger14]

Warspite...have you ever done a Barbarossa?[;)] You'll never make it across the Dnieper if all you look for are automatic victories. +10's are fine. The average roll is an 11 on a 2d10.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Warspite...have you ever done a Barbarossa?[;)] You'll never make it across the Dnieper if all you look for are automatic victories. +10's are fine. The average roll is an 11 on a 2d10.

warspite1

[&:] Did you read what I wrote?

Is it possible to take Poland, much less France or the Soviet Union with automatics? No - and that is not what I said.

Let me make it clear. If you can get automatics and remove the risk, while still achieving your goals then great. And this, with a Poland first strategy, may be initially possible. In my current AAR I had four attacks in Poland on the first impulse - 3 auto and one against Lodz. This allowed an attack against Warsaw in the next impulse - and the fall of Poland. Apart from the attacks on Lodz and Warsaw - no risk and no interruption of timeline. Of course the downside (and what we are exploring here) is that despite taking Poland in my second impulse, weather, disorganisation and the need to rail units from east to west meant that the attack on France has been badly compromised.

Most times you won't have automatics. In that scenario its about getting the best odds you can and the highest modifiers. The potential problem you have (and of course this is dependent upon the ground strike dice) is that getting positive modifiers may not be possible and so you run the risk of the dreaded 1 (or other low numbers considering you are forced to use the Assault Table and have less than ideal odds).

That is a particular problem here because a) you have no divisions and b) your forces are so light in the east, you have real problems if those 1's come to pass. Have a look at your set-up and then remove 2-3 units and disorganise the remainder.....

So please, if we are to make this as interesting and fun exercise as possible, lets take it as read that we both know something of how the game works? [:)]

[Jagdtiger14]

Sorry Warspite, didn't mean it that way. Anyway, per what Orm commented...we can go ahead and play with oil. You say the "dreaded 1"...for me its the dreaded 2 (and dreaded 14 result)...I have never played 1d10, always 2d10. I'm actually surprised 1d10 is in MWiF. When calculating if I will make an attack, I'll take the average roll (11), and proceed from there. If I have bad luck, oh well...I'll have to deal with that somehow if it happens. I'm not too worried about the Poles...not like they can get bigger and badder.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Sorry Warspite, didn't mean it that way. Anyway, per what Orm commented...we can go ahead and play with oil. You say the "dreaded 1"...for me its the dreaded 2 (and dreaded 14 result)...I have never played 1d10, always 2d10. I'm actually surprised 1d10 is in MWiF. When calculating if I will make an attack, I'll take the average roll (11), and proceed from there. If I have bad luck, oh well...I'll have to deal with that somehow if it happens. I'm not too worried about the Poles...not like they can get bigger and badder.

warspite1

Okay no problem. I'll ask if there is anyone else keen to take this on at this point. I am afraid 2d10 and, particularly Oil, are alien to me - but I know there are peeps here who use those options.

You have certainly piqued my interest in this set-up so I may test something similar, using the options mentioned previously, at some point in the future.

[Courtenay]

In my group, when my group existed (most have moved away), after our first few games, a France first strategy became routine.

We just screened against the Poles.

Sometimes France fell quickly, sometimes it did not. How quickly it fell mainly depended on the weather. In any case, it fell faster than it would have if the Germans had taken the Poles out, so the German player always thought attacking France and letting Poland live was worth it.

No Russian player was ever brave enough to declare war on Germany in 1940, which might be the counter to this strategy. The reason why was because he was afraid that if he did so, the US player might murder him. [:)]

[Centuur]

I don't like this setup at all. The Germans need to capture the Polish resources in the first turn. With this setup, you give the Polish army the possibility of trying to keep those out of German hands. Consider two stacks on the resources and the rest of the Poles go into Lodz, leaving Warsaw for the Germans to enter freely. Now, Germany has to make attacks on the Poles to get those resources. And those attacks will be very poor ones...

[Jagdtiger14]

Centuur: I'm not married to this set up. I'd like to over-run the Polish navy as well. Of course the resources are more important, in which case more units could be sent from the units in Prussia to down there.

Concerning leaving Warsaw open, I would walk into Warsaw, take Lodz and just wait and not worry about the resources for the first turn. I would like the resources the first turn, but if I can have them for almost free by waiting one turn rather than losing a lot of BP's of units in attacks that might take more than one turn anyway...

[brian brian]

One thing the Allies have in their favor if the Germans set up very heavy in the West and light vs. Poland is the last force to set up - the Poles.

How about this Allied response to a German set-up designed to get the Polish resources and little else, i.e. is very light in East Prussia and the Poznan corridor.

Set 2 or 3 Polish units (division) in Danzig. One throw away unit holds some key hex with a ZoC on moving the resources by rail, and temporarily screens Lodz & Warsaw from Assault on the first impulse when the Luftwaffe ground support can still be doubled.

The Poles now have their navy in supply, and a land unit reserve as well, depending on possible German ground strikes. Some German players (I do this) don't deploy the Convoy Points in the Baltic at-start to protect them from (usually French) possible Allied raids.

Some German players (I don't do this) set up very light on the Danish border. What if the Allies ground-strike the German forces in Schleswig-Holstein. Warspite's AAR featured that tactic. The German unit that took Frederikshavn was out of supply in that AAR = easy pickings for HQ Gort, as is any division sized German unit in that hex. This comes at the cost of one CW TRS mission in the North Sea, and thus one CW land unit in Belgium/France. This could be worthwhile, in my opinion, especially as the bigger CW deployment into France will be on the 2nd turn.

Now you might see British R-Class battleships (the Churchill dream scenario) backing up the defenders of Danzig, who can do various things, including reinforcing the Polish factory hexes, or simply deploying so that the Polish reinforcements can get on the map (these can be used to just cost the Germans impulses as they clear the approaches to the Polish factories). These units also maneuver (possibly difficult with CW combined impulses being strongly desired) to survive on their supply source, nicely covered by a river line vs East Prussia, and possibly blocked from German advance from the south by giving up a unit somewhere south of Danzig.

(Defensive Shore Bombardment and particularly Off-City Reinforcement optionals come into play so far in this narrative)

Meanwhile, Uncle Joe is keenly interested in these German shenanigans in Belgium. Rather than take his big piece of Eastern European pie right away, he bides his time and builds up around Pskov. If the Germans have any bad weather at all, there is little chance they take both Polish factories and taking East Poland / West Ukraine can wait a while.

As pointed out by Composer99, his moment arrives in Jan/Feb 1940. Adolf is at the gates of Paris when Stalin announces two simple Declarations of War vs Latvia and Lithuania, overrunning the two little Baltic States instantly with large deployments of airfield construction troops while simultaneously emboldening the GOP in the US Congress (two US Entry chits lost most likely).

He now has a common border with the Germans, albeit a very small one. Maybe a CW MIL can even land in the Free City of Danzig amidst the likely naval chaos in the Baltic, while the Poles move out, as much as they can, from their little supply source fortresses and embrace the German lines in East Prussia, such as they are. The Red Air Force redeploys en-masse into the Baltic States along with all the Soviet tanks (HQ-A, MECH) and some miscellaneous CAV and INF.

Stalin can now likely break the Nazi-Soviet Pact. He loses two Build Points per turn, but Adolf loses 3-5 BP and/or 0-2 Oil per turn. Stalin declines to declare war on Germany however, as he is under no obligation to do so. However he can set his sights on a certain hex a bit southwest of Odessa that is now the key to the entire German war machine, as well as finally getting his revenge for 1920 and gobbling up East Poland before the Eye of Sauron suddenly turns from the Eiffel Tower and frantically tries crazy things like maybe playing an Offensive Chit on von Leeb plodding his way through East Silesia to try and recover this bizarre situation...

...and the game breaks down in general over rules questions like can the Russians seize East Poland after the Pact is broken, and can they declare War on Rumania at all, or must they go through the normal demand Bessarabia process first, or even do that at all, or just what. I worry a little for what might happen to MWiF in this situation...

[brian brian]

(And actually, Stalin doesn't lose any net Build Points at all if he breaks the Pact as he now keeps 7 of his own resources, while Hitler is down only 1-3 BP but far more importantly, 2 Oil = very bad news for Italy as well)


Other notes -

If Germany threatens Holland on the first turn it should be automatic to put the Ark Royal with the best Gladiator in the 4 box of the North Sea, to give a 50/50 chance of intercepting the Kriegsmarine.

I have moved from an automatic raid on Kiel (historical) on the Allied Surprise Impulse to Ground Strikes on German forces on the Danish border, with the CW long-range bombers. However the usual result of attacking Kiel can frequently be simply disorganizing 1 of the German BBs and 1 CA, but this could be useful if the German are about to attempt an invasion of Rotterdam and the Presence of the Enemy optional is in play.

Maybe I would go with one Ground Strike and one Port Attack, though I also like to use the ATR capabilities of the Harrow. Tough decisions right from the start, though the easy one is to not load up any of the leaflets the Allies dropped historically if I recall correctly.

[Jagdtiger14]

Interesting response Brian. I would love to play you some day;-)

In response to you(excuse me if I don't understand something correctly that you wrote):
1. I assume you set up 2 or 3 Polish units in Danzig if there are no German ground strikers within range? Like you, I also do not deploy my German cp's at set up. So, under your Polish set up, the Germans getting the Polish resources will not be much of a problem?
2. I do set up less on the the Danish border (6 mover sp gun and 4 mover low value INF). What are the chances the Allies get both German units in S-H? Lets say for sure one...which can easily be re-orged by the un-used ATR. If the CW wants to commit something valuable, especially HQ Gort...as the German, please do! Eventually CW will voluntarily remove those units before they are destroyed post-France. As for CW naval activity in the Baltic (can I assume not playing with CL's?)...if the CW retreat from Denmark is not timely, those assets will be in danger...then let the damage/loss calculation and debate begin. CW units in Poland? I think you assume a German player who will take his eye off the real war in France and react to these side show adventures.
3. I don't think you can assume the Germans will be at the gates of Paris in J/F'40...that would be great for the Germans!...but I understand what you mean...busy over there... but you mention bad weather and the Germans at the "gates of Paris" (or doing well)...both wont happen. If the weather is poor, then the Germans will simply have to wait and conduct a more traditional war vs France. But over the bad Fall/Winter, the Germans will be free to re-inforce East Prussia a bit more...and then what are the Japs doing? Even in 1940...although there is a chance to do something garrison-wise vs Germany...it is still very difficult when you consider the defensive chits and garrison ratio.

4. O-chit on v. Leeb...never assume your opponent will make bad decisions.[X(]

I agree with you about putting a CV (plus) in the North Sea 4-box as the CW. ITPOTE is a bad option to play with.

[Centuur]

Well, this tactic can only work if Germany really sets up almost no units to engage Poland. Now, I would make sure that I can make at least one attack in Poland (probably on Katowice) and have some INF in East Prussia and around the Corridor too.

Also, this tactic can only work if the German units which are about to enter Denmark are disorganised too (or can't advance fast enough due to bad weather.

But it is indeed an interesting point of view.

On the rules, too me it looks to be clear. Every action allowed by the pact is started by the following line:

The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights (...)

If the pact is declared broken, the USSR can't exercise it's rights if it has not claimed them before the pact is broken. Because of this, the USSR can't declare war on either Rumania or Finland, since it didn't execute those rights...