RTFM?

[DWReese]

Hahahha

"Aim for the notch. Aim for the notch, damn it."

Doug

[guanotwozero]

Hehe! I always reckoned it was a North marker, as it always appeared in the same place no matter your orientation or activity.

So that should maybe become the official version - "it's a feature, not a bug!"

[thewood1]

You guys want a perfect example of what I am talking about...

tm.asp?m=4458225&mpage=1&key=&#4458406

1) He asks questions he should know from some very basic looking at the manual or the forum
2) He has never responded to a single person helping him
3) He asks the same question multiple times
4) He is clogging up a forum. He is literally dominating that forum.

5-6 people have stepped up to help him. Does anyone think he is just wasting people's time? People want to help him, that's fine. But how long before frustration sets in on both sides. This started a couple months ago and I have just been watching to see what happens. You can build a 2000 page manual with 8-1/2 x 10 color glossies, detailed tutorials, and step-by-step videos, but I doubt it will help this guy.

About 75% of the threads in that forum have been started by this guy and he has not responded to one of them. I am beginning to think this is one of those guys who comes in just to stir things up. He is either a sock puppet, or has no self awareness.

This doesn't mean that improving documentation isn't warranted, but it is not going to solve that guy's problem. And that is the one I focus on.

[guanotwozero]

Sure, but I'm pretty sure the OP was asking for ideas that would better reach most newbies. There will always be outliers. I suggest an attitude of "meh".

[thewood1]

And my point exactly is the outliers. All people ever think is we attack new players with questions. Its exactly guys like this one. There have been dozens of guys exactly like this one. There is no need to clog up a forum like that. If this was the main forum, I would have stepped in a lot earlier. But most activity that forum has seen in a year.

Do you think that is appropriate behavior for someone looking for help? I am very suspect of his true intentions based on to ever responding to anyone helping.

[BDukes]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

And my point exactly is the outliers. All people ever think is we attack new players with questions. Its exactly guys like this one. There have been dozens of guys exactly like this one. There is no need to clog up a forum like that. If this was the main forum, I would have stepped in a lot earlier. But most activity that forum has seen in a year.

Do you think that is appropriate behavior for someone looking for help? I am very suspect of his true intentions based on to ever responding to anyone helping.

Ughh! Another guy you have problem at. Yes there is conspiracy to ask question on forum. You do know you can not read or respond and life go on? [:D]

Forum needs to be nice place for everybody. Not just peoples that trigger Wood paranoid thought. Again support forum is for question.What is problem?

Thank!

[thewood1]

Still hovering around a 20% error rate. I was hoping to see some continuous improvement.

btw, being the white knight for that particular guy is not going to get you much support around here.

[thewood1]

Maybe the message is getting through over on that forum. He replied to his first thread in three months.

[guanotwozero]

Perhaps the success of improving the learning resources is to minimise the number of outliers. If a certain amount of hand-holding is built into the tutorials, then many of these obvious (to you and me) steps will be covered for those who don't see them as obvious.

That also show that perhaps there should be a split approach - a learning track for absolute beginners, which includes all that hand-holding, and a briefer track for military geeks, who can happily skip much of it.

There are two main objectives here; learning the mechanics (menus, actions, info, etc), which we all have to do, and learning how air/naval warfare is prosecuted, which the geeks will know already. Or at least parts thereof.

So does that give us 2 separate parts?

1) Hand-holding tutorials teaching basics of warfare AND mechanics of game.
2) Game mechanics tutorials for those who already understand warfare.

Both should teach players how to use the database and manual, and encourage their use.

[BDukes]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Still hovering around a 20% error rate. I was hoping to see some continuous improvement.

btw, being the white knight for that particular guy is not going to get you much support around here.

Being paranoid all this time is not going to get you much support around here.[8D]

Here is song for you. Be Happy! Enjoy game not user squash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

[thewood1]

Only if they are willing to use what they have. You keep talking about outliers. The gentleman we are talking about is exactly that. And those are the ones I am concerned with. Do you think that guy would have used any of the old or new documentation? It is not going to decrease the outliers. It will help others struggling with how to play, but the people I am talking about will continue on blissfully as before.

[guanotwozero]

Well, maybe. Or it could be that the questions asked by outliers tell us exactly what should be covered in the hand-holding guide.

Now, I think it's unrealistic to have a hand-holding guide for the whole of the game, so I've refined the idea a little:

1) Hand-holding guide up to a point A.
2) Mechanics guide up to point A.
3) Mechanics guide from point A onwards.

Where should that point A be? Something to figure out. The idea is that if you've reached point A, you're now able to use the manual, database and internet as references, so can learn the rest of the game the same way the geeks do.

[thewood1]

And my point is not to use those outliers as the measuring stick. Its the 80/20 rule. Really look at all of that guy's posts. Not until today has he responded in three months to queries about what he is actually trying to do. Where do you think you are going to start with someone like that.

[kevinkins]

ORIGINAL: apache85

I recently asked a question to a closed group of ‘power users’ and got some interesting answers. I’d really like to open this question up, and I would encourage everyone (brand new, lurker, poster, veteran) to respond.

What kind of learning resources would you like to see in CMANO? Would you prefer written (the manual), hands-on (tutorial scenarios), visual (videos ala Baloogan); or some other format?

It is sad that such a simple question turned into a nightmare thread. The developers want input from all sorts of players. I give them a lot credit for that. They are not asking about the past ... they are trying to move forward understanding they must attract younger war gamers or their business will die. These players are "babies" regarding war gaming and especially at the complexity of Command. Some older players here are choking on their Squad Leader / Harpoon chits. Please get over it... and help the new players. I agree with a recent post. Without new player silly questions, this forum would be dead. Put a fork in it. Does everyone want that? Who cares if they didn't do their homework. Who are they affronting by posting a question? Who? Are they taking resources away from who, what, and where? Don't answer them if you feel abused in some way. If this forum is such a detriment to the Command development timeline then take it down because silly novice questions will always be #1 around here.

Kevin

[guanotwozero]

Learning materials are always created by those who already know the stuff, and a frequent problem is that they take for granted certain knowledge that newbies don't have. They may drop in jargon or concepts that beginners just don't understand, just by not conceiving that the learner doesn't know it already.

That's where "outliers" can be useful - see what they ask and aim to cover that. Coverage rather than a simple yardstick.

Doubtless there will be some who don't use the resources and keep asking what's already there, but by then you know it's not because there's something lacking. Treat them as a coverage-creation resource, while knowing that you'll never completely eliminate their existence. For those who remain, then it's safe to go "meh".

[thewood1]

Again, please read the entire thread. Or at least take a little bit to digest it.

"silly novice questions"

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

Learning materials are always created by those who already know the stuff, and a frequent problem is that they take for granted certain knowledge that newbies don't have. They may drop in jargon or concepts that beginners just don't understand, just by not conceiving that the learner doesn't know it already.

That's where "outliers" can be useful - see what they ask and aim to cover that. Coverage rather than a simple yardstick.

Doubtless there will be some who don't use the resources and keep asking what's already there, but by then you know it's not because there's something lacking. Treat them as a coverage-creation resource, while knowing that you'll never completely eliminate their existence. For those who remain, then it's safe to go "meh".

So how about this? How about leading a team of community people to take what exists, consolidate it, format it and clean it up. I think that is a pretty worthy contribution and looking at this thread, you'd have a lot of volunteers to help.

[kevinkins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Again, please read the entire thread. Or at least take a little bit to digest it.

"silly novice questions"

Was that in response to my post a few minutes ago? Not sure who it was directed to ...

[guanotwozero]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

... The developers want input from all sorts of players. I give them a lot credit for that. They are not asking about the past ... they are trying to move forward understanding they must attract younger war gamers or their business will die. These players are "babies" regarding war gaming and especially at the complexity of Command...

Very astute observation. It's in all our interest to reach out to as many potential players as possible, including taking them from the ground up.

ORIGINAL: thewood1
So how about this? How about leading a team of community people to take what exists, consolidate it, format it and clean it up. I think that is a pretty worthy contribution and looking at this thread, you'd have a lot of volunteers to help.

Hehe! I wouldn't presume to have the leadership abilities to organise all that, nor necessarily a commitment to the time. But I'd be happy to contribute where I could. I'm only recently returned to CMANO from the early days, and I'm still on a long learning curve myself so my own knowledge is limited.

In any case the OP is asking for ideas - these should be hammered out into an agreed, workable plan before any creation effort is started.

But yeah - ultimately we, the community, should be able to do this.

[thewood1]

Ah, I see.