Red Star Shining thru Darkness, Beender(Axis) vs HLYA(Soviet) All are welcom

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[MarauderPL]

I always wondered if irl Soviet Command, after hearing some of the shattering news (like Kiev or Vyazma encirclements), thought that the reality is way too pro-German [:D]

[chaos45]

the issue is the game allows the germans to be even better than historical by a large margin anymore.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I just want to note that I will be giving the hold ratio for all to see compared to all my last games. I found this game interesting already compared to the last few games because of this ratio. From the forward line on I received ZERO holds out of 44 front line combats on units(units facing PZ's).

My memory is fading due to having too many games at same time but I'm sure I did have a few helds, though admittedly none of them was significant.

My experience has been at least during the first few turns, to get a held from a German panzer attack is unusual. They simply brush aside CV1 and CV2 ants, and for CV3+, use two of them[:D]The panzers do get less sharper as fatigue builds up and equipment wears down. Still, this turn I expected to get one or two helds from the attacks against those decent Soviet units in the south, especially those near Zhitomir. Luckily I won them all in the first try IIRC, and the losses by the Soviet tank division retreating across the river impressed me greatly.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Nothing. They take no loses or limited when attacking, no fear of being attacked since the huge defense.

That is my impression when I first started playing this game vs human a few months ago. In 41 summer German forces are basically invincible and superior to their opponent in offence, defense, and maneuverability by a very large margin. In terms of finance German is able to pursue however high return without seriously risking much (by much I mean more than one panzer division or two[:'(]). Just do all the bold attacks conceivable, play "all in" whenever possible and force Soviet to show down early. Eventually result probably will turn out to be good. I have practiced this philosophy since then.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Soviets should just do the run away strat and just build up when you can face the Germans. At this point that is the best option in my opinion.

Yes I also hold this view after playing a few Soviet campaigns. Stand and fight in early turns is not efficient if not pointless. Have got to run the first minute. That is the best approach for Soviet however I hate it.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Just counted again with all attacks by Panzers, 44 of them. You had ZERO, ziltch, no holds by Soviets on those 44 hasty attacks. I have been looking at this for the last year and half with all other opponents and collected the numbers. There was always a minimum of 1 hold on average every 10 attacks by Panzers/Moto hasty attacks. You Sir are extremely lucky is what I am saying.

One "held" out of ten hasty on average is also my impression, though in early turns the odds tends to be lower.

Still, I believe the number in our game is not as low as zero. Not so sure about others but 25th Mot probably had a "held." I remember that because it started at 80 morale and I paid special attention to get a few easy wins for it.

Anyway, German panzers did save some extra MPs for accidents. I happened to take some pics before finishing the turn and now looking at them, some have 5, some have 10, and that cavalry division has 25 MPs left. So in other words the German side did not expect the extreme luck and therefore did not make full use of it. A few additional helds might not have made much difference IMO.

[Stelteck]

If i remember well HardLuckYA you have the doctrine as soviet to deploy your troops in the open to try to force the panzer to lost time moving though difficult terrains or having to fight their way. You may face the drawback of your doctrine here.
The soviet base fighting power is so weak that in this case the german can go though without having to think twice.

(Instead of for example to keep troops in defensive terrains to improve their combat value but with the drawback of being surrounded by panzer moving though undefended clear land. Looks like you are doomed either way).

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I was "not" looking for a "difference" in the overall outcome. I am looking for holds by my units. Now the ones in the Lvov pocket middle section and close to the German border attacked by Infantry and whatever in the middle of the Lvov had holds. Those were not included in the count. The CRT "Combat Results Table" in this game gives VERY random combat and even PZ/Moto's will get holds even on SEC units. I have played the Germans a bazillion times and I have always had holds on some scrap unit moving to position. I am saying you were extremely lucky to have gotten ZERO on those 44 outside of the Lvov pocket enclosure attacks. It is what is and yes I do keep an eye on this with iPad and ipencil (Yes, Tele I do keep statistics. Because statistics are king in telling you the likelihood of an event happening. In this case beender attacks were an outlier by the PZ/Moto outside of the Lvov Pocket Good job imo Beender on the luck)

I see so you were referring to a particular group of panzer battles rather than all of them. I guess you are probably talking about that breakthrough near Vinnitsa. Since I don't have game any more I cannot provide data or statistics, but yes that was a very smooth operation as I remember.

I may have a theory if not an explanation for it. The battles were all conducted by panzers against infantry in clear terrain, and more importantly, out of the 44 total, probably only the initial ones should count. My impression is that Soviet units only have a real chance to hold in their original positions. Once dislocated, they almost will surely keep retreating during that turn until they route, unless, of course, they are able to retreat to a better terrain or a good fort. In this case, there was none or I herded them away (a technique I learnt from you[:D]).

But I do agree that battle results in wite can be peculiar and are most impossible to predict. I used to get two consecutive helds from a FZ by a panzer division. Therefore, having said this and everything else in the above posts, I must clarify that luck did help me a lot in carrying out the operation this turn.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[beender]

There is definitely no hurry because I have quite a few games going on currently (bad scheduling and communication on my part). So seriously take however long you want to because the chance is I will be the one to be slow!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[beender]

4 server plus a slow-moving PBEM one.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

nada

[beender]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: beender

4 server plus a slow-moving PBEM one.

All Germany? 4 games as Germany is easy. 1 Soviet game to me is 4 German ones it seems like in the first 10-15 turns.

Sadly, 2 Germany and 2 Soviets. I roughly have the same feeling. One German turn converges to 2 hours' time or less very fast. One Soviet turn...is hell.

[56ajax]

Soviet turn is at least 4 hrs game time for me, then I get tired, make stupid mistakes and go ah bugger it and push end turn

[BrianG]

Yes, it was a hasty attack. Yes, it was successful. But of course I know the consequences of my actions really well knowing full well German PZ's full of fuel will counter surround what I have there making the pocket even bigger. Have my reasons for trying it. I have to live with it either way. Of course this could be a very quick game with a Beender win very early. But for now I have to work out what I am going to do on BrianG's turn before getting back to this one. Both games I am taking a pounding I still think the combat system is just too Pro German. Even playing as a German I thought this. But I am going to sux it up and go with it.

I think I am going to keep my eyes out of both threads.

As for the German airforce, they better show up and fight!