expanded The Next War 1979

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Armored division with old equipment, for the 4th, 6th, 7th, and 10th Divisions. Probably need to add trucks so supply flows well.

Cheers

There are x20 155 SP Gun carriages. Should these be 155mm howitzers?

[mussey]

My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.

[cathar1244]

Hi Mussey,

I'll try to reply to all of your questions. Easy question first. The 155 SP's shown for the "old equipment" armored divisions is the first French 155mm postwar SP gun, called the "F3". See image below (the TOAW silhouette is not an accurate depiction). Information about it can be found the 'net. I'm reasonably sure the armored divisions had SP pieces, not towed pieces.



Cheers

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: mussey

My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.

From my notes above --
19e RA at Draguignan with 14th Infantry Division.
8e RA at Commercy with 4th Armored Division.
16e RA at Chaumont with III Corps, assumed to be an artillery observation battalion, but only an assumption
3e RAMa at Vernon with 12th Infantry Division

Others --
17e RA -- assigned to territorial forces, located at Biscarrosse, but was an air defense regiment from 1970 forward. Equipped with 40mm AA guns, it supported the missile testing facility at Landes.

24e RA -- an antiaircraft group in the immediate postwar era, not reformed as an artillery regiment until mid-1981 and subordinated to 5th Armored Division.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: mussey

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Infantry Division.

Cheers

Cathar, this Infantry unit is really slimmed down. The x70 jeeps look suspicious? In game terms the jeep is a recon vehicle that greatly adds to recon %. Can you re-verify that? Was there any other APC's?

60 of those jeeps are in the divisional recon battalion. Overall, the "division" was really weak; three infantry battalions, an artillery battalion, an engineer company, and the recon battalion.

I read the AML armored cars tended to be deployed within France, so I put them in the recon battalions of these infantry divisions. The APCs are something else. From what I read, there were still many truck drawn units among the motorized infantry into the 1980s, although the VABs were being deployed. You could make 100 of the trucks as VABs and the representation would not be too bad.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: mussey

On to two more orbat issues:

1) In the original scenario, the West German Jager Divisions (2nd and 4th) are composed of Panzer and Grenadier brigades and the divisions were designated as such. However, I found that from 1974-1980 they were true Jager's. Does anyone know what the equipment would be? My guess is they might be closer to the Mountaineer Div during this time frame.(x2 Mtn Bdes, x1 PG bde).

2) The West German reserves (Territorial Command) is paramount, yet I've found very little in Orbats for the 1979 time period. One source lists it as more of a security force for behind the lines, and that it did not become a more structured reserve force until 1982. Is this true?

If anyone can point me in the right direction on these issues, I would be much obliged.

I'll dig into this. I can say authoritatively the Jäger's for the 2nd and 4th Divisions were not mountain infantry. German Jäger organization, completely beyond the mountain and airborne infantry, was multi-faceted. There were these guys, plus each division had a Jäger battalion as light infantry dedicated to rear-area combat operations. Beyond even that, there were Jäger units in the reserve that were local defense units. Some were motorized, others had M113 APCs. I'll get back to you with more information. Ditto for the territorial forces.

On territorial forces, from Keegan's "World Armies" (published 1979).

The Territorial Army's combat units are of three sorts: (a) Home Defence Groups (Heimatschutzkommandos), of which one is in existence or planned for Military Districts II - VI (all have now been formed); (b) light infantry battalions (Jägerbataillone), of which 21 are in existence or planned for the Defence Regions; and (c) Security Companies (Sicherungskompanie), of which 300 are planned for or are in existence in the Defense sub-regions. The Home Defence Groups are effectively very lightly equipped infantry brigades of two motorised infantry battalions, one engineer battalion, one anti-tank company, and one very heavy mortar company, numbers which can be doubled in emergency by the call-up of recruits; in peace, each contains about 2500 men, of whom all but 15% are conscripts undergoing training. The light infantry battalions of the Defence Regions have a permanent cadre but are manned by reservists, who do 14 days annual training; the battalions are motorised but would requisition most of their vehicles from civilian sources. The Security Companies of the Defence Sub-regions are entirely reservist in composition and based in areas where the reservists live.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

More on W German territorial forces.

Each Heimatschütz Jaeger Battalion had three Jaeger companies described much as you mention – four platoons, with a support platoon that usually contained a pair of FK-20 or FK-20-2 20mm AA guns and a 106mm recoilless rifle or two (as well as 48 tripod-mounted machine guns, one per squad). Each Heimatschütz Regiment (of two battalions) also had a 120mm mortar company and a Kanonejagdpanzer Platoon of six vehicles.

Heimatschützkommando organization.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

W German rear-area combat ops Jäger battalion.

There's Jaeger and there's Jaeger and there's Jaeger…
There were also 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalions. Each West German division had one and its role was that of mobile infantry reserve and rear-area/convoy escort. A 'Heavy' Jaeger Battalion had three companies organised as above. Each battalion had three Jaeger Companies and a 120mm Panzer-Mortar Company (as for Panzer-Grenadier Battalions).

As mentioned above, 'pure' Panzer-Grenadier Battalions had Jaeger Companies. These were organised as described above: three platoons, each with three sections and mounted in three M113s. CHQ with a single M113. No reserve section or support platoon. Note: 27 tripod mounted MG's per battalion, one per rifle squad.

M113 PGr Platoon:
Each platoon has 3x M113, 3 nine-man sections, each section has 1 MG3 and 1
Milan-1. In theory each also section also had a Carl Gustav firing
illumination rounds only, but these were generally left in barracks. Each
Pz Gr battalion has 63 disposable LAW (M72A1 or Pzf-44) which would equate
to 2 per section, assuming HQs and the mortar company had some.

And, checking a different source, it looks like the Jaeger battalions of the Jaeger brigades of the 2nd and 4th divisions were issued Marder IFVs to replace their M113s in the early to mid 1970s. So only the divisonal "rear-area combat" Jaeger battalion should have the M113s.

On the Jaeger brigade structure, Keegan notes:

three [mech] infantry battalions, a tank destroyer battalion [32 Kanonepanzerjaeger and 8 Raketen-Panzerjaeger vehicles], and one artillery battalion (18 155mm SP howitzers)

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

ORIGINAL: mussey

My one source previously photo'd above has additional corps Art Rgts for 1977:

I Corps, 17 RA 155 (?), 19 RA 155 (?)
II Corps, 24 RA 155 (Reutlingen)
III Corps, 8 RA 155 (Commercy), 16 RA 155 (?), 3 RA RAM 155 (Vernon)

What does your source show for these? Let me know what you find.

From my notes above --
19e RA at Draguignan with 14th Infantry Division.
8e RA at Commercy with 4th Armored Division.
16e RA at Chaumont with III Corps, assumed to be an artillery observation battalion, but only an assumption
3e RAMa at Vernon with 12th Infantry Division

Others --
17e RA -- assigned to territorial forces, located at Biscarrosse, but was an air defense regiment from 1970 forward. Equipped with 40mm AA guns, it supported the missile testing facility at Landes.

24e RA -- an antiaircraft group in the immediate postwar era, not reformed as an artillery regiment until mid-1981 and subordinated to 5th Armored Division.

Cheers

Thanks for the cross-check. I should be finished with the French Orbat tonight, and will then proceed to WGer Terr Army. Once again, good work. Excellent pic of the F3, the TOAW silhouette threw me off, sorry to doubt you.

[cathar1244]

sorry to doubt you.

No,no, always look critically and ask. Remember our old US Army training ... the only dumb question is the one not asked.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers

The TO&E for these units will prove interesting. I'm assuming the Div's should be lighter than the other Panzer and Pzr Gren units, yet with armored/mech elements.

As for the Terr Army, I need to get this right, since with the presumed massive Soviet penetration, it will be these units that will be the second line in WGer. The current game has them attached as reserve bde's to the x3 Corps (iirc x6-8 per corp). I may leave them here, yet some sources suggest they had their own divisional/corp structure.

[cathar1244]

Location of Heimatschützkommando HQ.

HSK 13 in Eutin (Flensburg-Weiche)
..Jaeger Regiment 38 in Flensburg
..Jaeger Regiment 39 in Putlos
HSK 14 in Lingen (Ems)
..Jaeger Regiment 41 in ?
..Jaeger Regiment 42 in Ochtrup
HSK 15 in Wuppertal
..Jaeger Regiment 44 in Ahlen
..Jaeger Regiment 45 in Unna
HSK 16 in Zweibrücken
..Jaeger Regiment 47 in Oberbexbach
..Jaeger Regiment 48 in ?
HSK 17 in Böblingen (10 kilometers S of Stuttgart)
..Jaeger Regiment 50 in Böblingen
..Jaeger Regiment 51 in Münsingen
HSK 18 in Neuburg an der Donau
..Jaeger Regiment 53 in Munich
..Jaeger Regiment 54 in Neuburg an der Donau

Cheers

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: mussey

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

German Wikipedia brings out something interesting about the Jaeger Brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions. They had three Jaeger battalions, but one was equipment at a depot and would have to be filled out with reservists.

Cheers

The TO&E for these units will prove interesting. I'm assuming the Div's should be lighter than the other Panzer and Pzr Gren units, yet with armored/mech elements.

As for the Terr Army, I need to get this right, since with the presumed massive Soviet penetration, it will be these units that will be the second line in WGer. The current game has them attached as reserve bde's to the x3 Corps (iirc x6-8 per corp). I may leave them here, yet some sources suggest they had their own divisional/corp structure.

Territorial brigades did not appear until 1981. There are 12 territorial regiments as mentioned in my other comment. Organization in TOAW for a regiment: 96 assault rifle AT+, 96 MMG, 8 ea. 120-mm mortars, 6 PanzerjaegerKanone tank destroyers, 7 20-mm AA guns (towed), and six 106-mm recoilless or six "Cobra" ATGM.

Some of this may be a jumble. A good source claims there were two kinds of territorial Jaeger battalion, one heavy and one light, but this is a good start for the territorial OOB.

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

ORIGINAL: mussey

On to two more orbat issues:

1) In the original scenario, the West German Jager Divisions (2nd and 4th) are composed of Panzer and Grenadier brigades and the divisions were designated as such. However, I found that from 1974-1980 they were true Jager's. Does anyone know what the equipment would be? My guess is they might be closer to the Mountaineer Div during this time frame.(x2 Mtn Bdes, x1 PG bde).

2) The West German reserves (Territorial Command) is paramount, yet I've found very little in Orbats for the 1979 time period. One source lists it as more of a security force for behind the lines, and that it did not become a more structured reserve force until 1982. Is this true?

If anyone can point me in the right direction on these issues, I would be much obliged.

I'll dig into this. I can say authoritatively the Jäger's for the 2nd and 4th Divisions were not mountain infantry. German Jäger organization, completely beyond the mountain and airborne infantry, was multi-faceted. There were these guys, plus each division had a Jäger battalion as light infantry dedicated to rear-area combat operations. Beyond even that, there were Jäger units in the reserve that were local defense units. Some were motorized, others had M113 APCs. I'll get back to you with more information. Ditto for the territorial forces.

On territorial forces, from Keegan's "World Armies" (published 1979).

The Territorial Army's combat units are of three sorts: (a) Home Defence Groups (Heimatschutzkommandos), of which one is in existence or planned for Military Districts II - VI (all have now been formed); (b) light infantry battalions (Jägerbataillone), of which 21 are in existence or planned for the Defence Regions; and (c) Security Companies (Sicherungskompanie), of which 300 are planned for or are in existence in the Defense sub-regions. The Home Defence Groups are effectively very lightly equipped infantry brigades of two motorised infantry battalions, one engineer battalion, one anti-tank company, and one very heavy mortar company, numbers which can be doubled in emergency by the call-up of recruits; in peace, each contains about 2500 men, of whom all but 15% are conscripts undergoing training. The light infantry battalions of the Defence Regions have a permanent cadre but are manned by reservists, who do 14 days annual training; the battalions are motorised but would requisition most of their vehicles from civilian sources. The Security Companies of the Defence Sub-regions are entirely reservist in composition and based in areas where the reservists live.

Cheers

This is from Fire and Fury. Does this compare w/Keegan? {edit] the other Commands are also listed.

[cathar1244]

On the brigades in the 2nd and 4th Divisions, some translated comments.

The plan was for the 2nd and 4th Jaeger Divisions to have two Jaeger brigades and a Panzer brigade.

The reorganization actually took place like this:

4th PG Division was retitled as the 4th Jaeger Division with Jaeger Brigades 10 and 11, as well as Panzer Brigade 12.
Brigade 10 (at Weiden) with battalions 101 and 102; 103 was equipment only.
Brigade 11 (at Bogen) with battalions 112 and 113; 111 was equipment only.

2nd PG Division was retitled as the 2nd Jaeger Division with Jaeger Brigade 4, Panzergrenadier Brigade 5, and Panzer Brigade 6. The planned transformation of Panzergrenadier Brigade 5 into a Jaeger brigade did not take place.
Brigade 4 (at Göttingen) with battalions 41 and 42; 43 was equipment only.

Additionally, Panzergrenadier Brigades 16 and 17 of the 6th PG Division were assigned Jaeger Battalions 162 and 172...

Organization:

The Jaeger battalions of the regular army were all of Type JgBtl B3 with the following organization:
1st Headquarters and Headquarters Company
2nd Jaeger Company (four platoons mounted in M113s)
3rd and 4th Jaeger Companies (four platoons mounted in trucks)
5th (heavy) company with infantry fighting vehicles (10 vehicles), armored mortar platoon (6 mortars), and an armored ATGM platoon (with six COBRA)

Note: The COBRAs were probably replaced with MILAN in the early 1970s. Also, per my other source, the units in the actual Jaeger brigades moved to Marder IFVs in the early-mid 1970s, but the divisional (rear area combat) Jaeger battalions probably had the structure noted here.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

This is from Fire and Fury. Does this compare w/Keegan? {edit] the other Commands are also listed.

That is for the 1980s, note the brigades have come into existence (as of 1981).

Cheers

[cathar1244]

W German territorial forces: Besides the 12 HSK regiments, these Jaeger battalions existed in 1979.

JgBtl 714 Eutin 1971 – 1987
JgBtl 724 Bremerhaven 1974 – 1979, then Bremen until 1981
JgBtl 742 Koblenz 1970 – 1982
JgBtl 752 Oftersheim 1970 – 2006
JgBtl 762 Neubrunn 1971 – 1976
JgBtl 763 Regensburg 1975 – 1981

Structure was 48 assault rifle AT+ squads, 48 medium MG, eight 120mm mortar, seven 20mm AA gun, and six 106mm recoilless per battalion.

Cheers

[mussey]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

W German territorial forces: Besides the 12 HSK regiments, these Jaeger battalions existed in 1979.

JgBtl 714 Eutin 1971 – 1987
JgBtl 724 Bremerhaven 1974 – 1979, then Bremen until 1981
JgBtl 742 Koblenz 1970 – 1982
JgBtl 752 Oftersheim 1970 – 2006
JgBtl 762 Neubrunn 1971 – 1976
JgBtl 763 Regensburg 1975 – 1981

Structure was 48 assault rifle AT+ squads, 48 medium MG, eight 120mm mortar, seven 20mm AA gun, and six 106mm recoilless per battalion.

Cheers

Excellent work. This is a reduction from the original game, which had: 6 bdes, 16 rgt's.

I may be able to start on this tonight.

[mussey]

I'm nearing the finish with the W.Ger Terr Army reserves, but still have a few nagging concerns. For example, a source shows that by 1981-82, WGer had 1200 M-48 Pattons. I wonder if some (or most) of them would show up in these Territory units? Does Keegan account for these?:

German Army Formations [1981-82]
• 6 Tank Divisions (Panzerdivisionen)
• 4 Armored Infantry Divisions (Panzergrenadierdivisionen)
• 1 Mountain Division (Gebirgsdivision)
• 6 Home Defense Tank Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzerbrigaden)
• 6 Home Defense Armored Infantry Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzergrenadierbrigaden (not complete)

Number of tanks[1]
MBTs

1,200 M48 A2C/A2GA2
2,737 Leopard 1 A2/A3/A4/A5/A6/1A1A1
1350 Leopard 2
770 Kanonenjagdpanzer
350 Raketenjagdpanzer