Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Don't forget a night fighter. You will "need" one earlier than historical.

Yeah, that'll be on the acceleration list. Not sure which one, but my current thought is speed above all else. I don't expect them to shoot many planes down but they have no chance if they can't keep up.

I'm no longer a fan of accelerating NF's. The issue is so few groups and then so few planes in those groups. Don't miss understand. I build the best one. I'd rather have some really good fighters early.

As you note, you can't get everything early.

I think 1 x 30 Irving NF is fine and gives you that plane a few months early, plus the ready production you'll need to build a pool. It is your best NF until the Randy C can be made.

If you are going N1K and A7M for IJN and Ki-84 and Ki-83 for IJA, i would go 12x30 N1K, 12x30 A7M, 18x30 Ki-84 and 12x30 Ki83. Minimum. that's 54 taken. Then 6 - 9 on A6M. It's your best fighter through '42.

The A6M line is of course very important through 43, but the Tojo is the best fighter in 42. You have to get it early and plentifully, and burn a ton of them to subjugate any upstart Allied threats.

You should see:
N1K in early '43. If you are lucky Feb/Mar. Yes the statistics say Apr (50%), BUT this is a one sided curve AND a high deviation (meaning broad, not sharp). It comes in Sept 100%. It's like a 20% chance to have it in Jan IIRC with 12. People forget that, they only remember the 50% mark … plus remember the second benefit: you have 360 production right away. 12 planes/day. 3 days to fill a 36 plane group. You get 2 groups converted to N1K every week.

A7M - Late 44. 12/44, close to that.
Ki-84 - 8/43 - 9/43. Something like that. Just after you get the Tojo-c. So you are going to fly the Tojo-a a long time.
ki-83 - somewhere just at the beginning of 45 … 1/45 or so. This will give you a 430 mph AC when the allies are also flying them. 9/45 when they start flying +460 mph aircraft you'll still be competitive.

I think 12 x 30 for Ki-83 is too many. I only used like 4/5 x 30 and got it in early 45. If you do 8 x 30 you'll have it in 44 for sure.

You have to think about what you're making in the end too. I don't think you can plan for making 12 x 30 (or 360/month of Ki-83). That's also a massive investment in engines, with 720/month of Ha-43 just for this plane!! [X(] The N1K5 and the A7M also use the Ha-43, so you're basically going to screw yourself making that many of these engines. I'm only making 850/month for all of them right now.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: JoV

I have a 50 odd page word doc of notes that I pulled out of your other thread. Time to reopen it I guess [:D]

Good luck with Mersing. Hopefully the stingbags don't bite too hard. Be careful in the South Pacific too. A tricksy Allied player might just jump your early invasions of Tarawa/Tabiteuea.

Best of luck [:)]

50 pages?! [X(]

Yeah, I'm not too worried about any of those early invasions except for Wake. Those other ones are just a partial unit on one xAK(L) and a PB.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli




Yeah, that'll be on the acceleration list. Not sure which one, but my current thought is speed above all else. I don't expect them to shoot many planes down but they have no chance if they can't keep up.

I'm no longer a fan of accelerating NF's. The issue is so few groups and then so few planes in those groups. Don't miss understand. I build the best one. I'd rather have some really good fighters early.

As you note, you can't get everything early.

I think 1 x 30 Irving NF is fine and gives you that plane a few months early, plus the ready production you'll need to build a pool. It is your best NF until the Randy C can be made.

If you are going N1K and A7M for IJN and Ki-84 and Ki-83 for IJA, i would go 12x30 N1K, 12x30 A7M, 18x30 Ki-84 and 12x30 Ki83. Minimum. that's 54 taken. Then 6 - 9 on A6M. It's your best fighter through '42.

The A6M line is of course very important through 43, but the Tojo is the best fighter in 42. You have to get it early and plentifully, and burn a ton of them to subjugate any upstart Allied threats.

You should see:
N1K in early '43. If you are lucky Feb/Mar. Yes the statistics say Apr (50%), BUT this is a one sided curve AND a high deviation (meaning broad, not sharp). It comes in Sept 100%. It's like a 20% chance to have it in Jan IIRC with 12. People forget that, they only remember the 50% mark … plus remember the second benefit: you have 360 production right away. 12 planes/day. 3 days to fill a 36 plane group. You get 2 groups converted to N1K every week.

A7M - Late 44. 12/44, close to that.
Ki-84 - 8/43 - 9/43. Something like that. Just after you get the Tojo-c. So you are going to fly the Tojo-a a long time.
ki-83 - somewhere just at the beginning of 45 … 1/45 or so. This will give you a 430 mph AC when the allies are also flying them. 9/45 when they start flying +460 mph aircraft you'll still be competitive.

I think 12 x 30 for Ki-83 is too many. I only used like 4/5 x 30 and got it in early 45. If you do 8 x 30 you'll have it in 44 for sure.

You have to think about what you're making in the end too. I don't think you can plan for making 12 x 30 (or 360/month of Ki-83). That's also a massive investment in engines, with 720/month of Ha-43 just for this plane!! [X(] The N1K5 and the A7M also use the Ha-43, so you're basically going to screw yourself making that many of these engines. I'm only making 850/month for all of them right now.

I'm WAY behind you in this thinking, mainly because I have absolutely no experience playing the Japanese in 44 (almost there!) let alone 45. Obvert, I understand your issue with the engines. But, you're going to make X number of planes late war a month. What difference does it make what type of engines you use? They all cost the same and you'll be spending the same number of HI regardless.

[RangerJoe]

You can always switch engine factories over from engines that you aren't using as many of to the ones that you need. Yes, I know that there is a cost but then there is also the opportunity cost of shutting factories down and not producing any engines - not to mention having lots of engines of a type that you don't need now but needed before.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo



I'm no longer a fan of accelerating NF's. The issue is so few groups and then so few planes in those groups. Don't miss understand. I build the best one. I'd rather have some really good fighters early.

As you note, you can't get everything early.


If you are going N1K and A7M for IJN and Ki-84 and Ki-83 for IJA, i would go 12x30 N1K, 12x30 A7M, 18x30 Ki-84 and 12x30 Ki83. Minimum. that's 54 taken. Then 6 - 9 on A6M. It's your best fighter through '42.



You should see:
N1K in early '43. If you are lucky Feb/Mar. Yes the statistics say Apr (50%), BUT this is a one sided curve AND a high deviation (meaning broad, not sharp). It comes in Sept 100%. It's like a 20% chance to have it in Jan IIRC with 12. People forget that, they only remember the 50% mark … plus remember the second benefit: you have 360 production right away. 12 planes/day. 3 days to fill a 36 plane group. You get 2 groups converted to N1K every week.

A7M - Late 44. 12/44, close to that.
Ki-84 - 8/43 - 9/43. Something like that. Just after you get the Tojo-c. So you are going to fly the Tojo-a a long time.
ki-83 - somewhere just at the beginning of 45 … 1/45 or so. This will give you a 430 mph AC when the allies are also flying them. 9/45 when they start flying +460 mph aircraft you'll still be competitive.

I think 12 x 30 for Ki-83 is too many. I only used like 4/5 x 30 and got it in early 45. If you do 8 x 30 you'll have it in 44 for sure.

You have to think about what you're making in the end too. I don't think you can plan for making 12 x 30 (or 360/month of Ki-83). That's also a massive investment in engines, with 720/month of Ha-43 just for this plane!! [X(] The N1K5 and the A7M also use the Ha-43, so you're basically going to screw yourself making that many of these engines. I'm only making 850/month for all of them right now.

I'm WAY behind you in this thinking, mainly because I have absolutely no experience playing the Japanese in 44 (almost there!) let alone 45. Obvert, I understand your issue with the engines. But, you're going to make X number of planes late war a month. What difference does it make what type of engines you use? They all cost the same and you'll be spending the same number of HI regardless.

For me it is that the Ha-43 is used late war only. So you have to build up the Ha-32 and Ha-33 for a lot of mid-war planes, then when the N1K5 comes online, the A7M2 begins and the Ki-83 is producing, the Ha-43 demand is suddenly very high. I'd rather build more slowly and not have to use quite so many Ha-43 late.

The Frank uses Ha-45 all of the way through, so you can monitor and build that as research and production ramp up.

You may want to scrimp on the Ha-35 early, build to just break even, so that late war you don't end up with 2k in the pools and 650 factories with nothing using them. You will likely switch them over to something else for the most part.

In the end you have to make something, and lots of them, so it's probably about planning more effectively what will switch, what you don't need, and what will have to ramp up and when. With engine factories a switch of a factory to create a new 250 engine plant takes 250 days to repair. That is a long time, so it's important to figure out when that all happens.

When the N1K5 and A7M2 come online you suddenly need 600-700 Ha-43 you didn't need yesterday. If they're staggered it's obviously better. You're also still using a lot of them to add to research after your first engine factories are built so you may not build pools as quickly as you'd think. If you add to that another 720 for the Ki-83 that is a lot of factories having to build up, a lot of supply used over that period of time. You won't have enough overall factories to ensure you can use smaller 50-100 engine plants for all your needs. Some will necessarily be massive.

If I start another game I'll look at cancelling some airframes altogether that aren't essential, even the Helen, if the engines don't make sense. It complicates matters that different scenarios use different engines for the Tojo also. It's better to have it use the Ha-35 rather than the Ha-34 that the Helen uses.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: obvert
...
When the N1K5 and A7M2 come online you suddenly need 600-700 Ha-43 you didn't need yesterday. If they're staggered it's obviously better. You're also still using a lot of them to add to research after your first engine factories are built so you may not build pools as quickly as you'd think. If you add to that another 720 for the Ki-83 that is a lot of factories having to build up, a lot of supply used over that period of time. You won't have enough overall factories to ensure you can use smaller 50-100 engine plants for all your needs. Some will necessarily be massive.

Engines are more predictable compared to airframes, cause they repair at a given rate. It largely does not matter what production profile (engine types wise) you want to end up with, you'd still spend 1k supply per factory point at the start no matter producing factory or R&D. Large end-war demand for modern engines can be met by smaller supply distributed over time. Both Ha-43 and Ha-45 can start production in 43 or even 42 if you wish, when their airframes are still deep in the R&D phase.
What matters more in mine view is the discussion around x2 engine airframes since they create additional nontrivial engine demand when mass-produced.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You can always switch engine factories over from engines that you aren't using as many of to the ones that you need. Yes, I know that there is a cost but then there is also the opportunity cost of shutting factories down and not producing any engines - not to mention having lots of engines of a type that you don't need now but needed before.

That's standard practice for me. I try not to have a huge surplus of engines that I won't need later. Ha-34 for example. I've shut that factory down (and changed to the Ha-45) and am using up the engines. I'll phase out the Helen in favor of the P1Y2 Francis, which becomes operational in June 44.

[Mike Solli]

What you guys are discussing concerning engines and late war fighters is precisely what I'm attempting to figure out. I bungled that badly in the other game. I have an idea of what I want to do. I'm in the process of figuring out exactly when I want the Ha-43 and Ha-45 to become operational. The other issue is how many of the R&D engine factories to allow to become operational factories. Probably few to none for the Ha-45 and most to all for the Ha-43.

The final issue is whether or not to research the Ha-44 or NE Turbojet. I can't see being able to do both so I need to finalize my late war fighters now so I can make a decision on whether to work on one of them or not.

[Lowpe]

What scenario game is this, 1?

[Mike Solli]

Yep, scenario 1.

[Mike Solli]

Ok, some very rough calculations on R&D engine factories.

11 factories total:

Aichi Ha-60: 40(0) - Judy 1 & 2 - keep
Aichi Ha-60: 80(0) - Judy 1 & 2 - keep
Aichi Ha-60: 5(0) - Judy 1 & 2 - convert to Ha-45, increase to 30
Kawasaki Ha-60: 20(0) - convert to Ha-45, increase to 30
Kayaba Argus: 5(0) - convert to Ha-45, increase to 30
Ha-42: 2(0) - convert to Ha-45, increase to 30
Ha-43: 10(0) - keep and increase to 30
Ha-44: 10(0) - convert to Ha-45, increase to 30
Ha-45: 30(0) - keep
NE Turbojet: 2(0) - keep and increase to 30
Toko Rocket: 2(0) - convert to Ha-45, increase to 30

This is 8x30 factories for the Ha-45. It will complete in July 42. At that point 2 become operational and the remaining 6 convert to the Ha-43.

The 2 Ha-60 factories complete in June 42. The 80(0) becomes operational and the 40(0) converts to the Ha-43.

By the end of Aug 42, there are 8 repaired factories researching the Ha-43 (7x30 and 1x40).

The Ha-43 completes in September 43. Two become operational and the remaining 6 convert to NE Turbojet and are repaired by the end of September 43.

This makes 7x30 NE Turbojet researching. The NE Turbojet completes March 44 and all become operational. Some of them will convert to something else as needed.

This will cost a lot of supply:
Dec 41: 230k
June 42: 40k
July 42: 180k
September 43: 180k

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: rustysi

12*30 on N1K you should expect to see this plane early '43. You will need a lot of Ha-45's, so plan accordingly.

I think 12 George factories are too many. I got the plane with six R&D sites in mid Mar '43.

It depends upon his plans. 12*30 means a chance for Jan/Feb which is nice, but that ain't the complete reason. 6*30=180. So, you can only convert maybe 4 groups per month to N1K. 12*30 means you can convert at least 8 groups to N1K in the first month. If he has plans for India, he would be moving on that target towards the end of 42. Think of the impact of suddenly having 8 groups of N1K turn up Feb 15 43 and start sweeping. In one or two turns, and this is a 2 day turn game, so even more of a chance, you might obliterate the allied fighters in India before the allied player can even react.
6*30 means 8 groups won't show up until late May or June.

This is why I tend to go big or leave it alone. If I RnD a plane, I want a serious contribution, else I just wait for the plane to arrive historically.

Its all about strategy at this point and the ability to open up tactical options.

OK, been thinking about this, and here's my rub with this strategy.

Japan during this time frame has about 5 chutai of Zeros with just over 200 planes operational throughout the empire. She has 5 or 6 more in the HI, but most or all of these are permanently restricted. That means to use so many Georges she has no choice but to remove groups from carriers. This at a time when US strength is growing to the point that CV capacity is approaching equity. Doing what you propose will hand parity to the US that much earlier. To me that's a dangerous thing.

Now if US CV losses are higher than that of the Japanese, then fine, but you've no way of predicting that from the get go.

In addition its my feeling that a late '42 thrust into India is much too late. If your going for gains in India it should be from the beginning IMHO. By late '42 US pressure should be starting to tell. In addition, if your opponent has paid attention you'll still be heavily involved in China. Think you can still pull this off. I think its a big gamble.

All JMHO. Mike YMMV.

[rustysi]

I think 12 x 30 for Ki-83 is too many.

Agreed.

You may want to scrimp on the Ha-35 early, build to just break even, so that late war you don't end up with 2k in the pools and 650 factories with nothing using them. You will likely switch them over to something else for the most part.

Not so fast. If you want those late war Kami aircraft these will come in handy. In my current game I built the engine to 15/day. Its pool rose sharply even using the engine bonuses. For a while now demand has outpaced supply and I'm down to about 625 in the pool, but I have more demand on the way. The Dinah NF, and the Randy NF. The Dinah, because its the first NF I can get. The Randy because its the best (IMO) and its an Army plane. BTW both of these are twin engine planes. Yes, I know you don't get many NF units, but I feel I need some, at least over my more important targets. Once these are done the Kami's should eat the rest of the supply.

I'll phase out the Helen in favor of the P1Y2 Francis

You know these aren't interchangeable, one's Army, the other Navy.

OK, let's see if I can find more.[:D]

[rustysi]

Ha-34 for example. I've shut that factory down

I intend to keep a few for the Tojo. I like the idea of having an OK SR 1 plane available for a long time. However that may change with more late war experience.

This makes 7x30 NE Turbojet researching. The NE Turbojet completes March 44 and all become operational.

I think doing all the other stuff and this is simply too much of a reach. I don't bother, nor think I ever will. Your conventional late war aircraft are of sufficient quality to get the job done.

This is 8x30 factories for the Ha-45. It will complete in July 42. At that point 2 become operational and the remaining 6 convert to the Ha-43.

Those two Ha-45 plants are going to have to be large as there's quite a demand for it. Just Frank's alone should take at least 10/day. Edit. Not to mention if you go for the 12 Georges/day. The first two models use this engine.

[rustysi]

Wait there's more....[:D]

Ha-43: 10(0) - keep and increase to 30

Here's the thing about this engine. You only need it for two planes, if you want them. The first is the original Jill. Now I've built enough to equip three heavy CV's and one baby. Just got the Jill-II starting, which uses the Ha-32(?). The other is the KI-94. A nasty looking brute. Thing is its a late starter. I figure early '45 in my game. So that means for a time there'll be no engine draw. As a result I only produce 90/month. At the end of APR '43 I'll have 299 in the pool. It'll rise over the 500 mark in a little over two more months and I'll see what happens when the bonus starts to draw.

Have we confused you enough yet. So many different opinions and possibilities.[8|]

[RangerJoe]

What I did for my game was to put the planes and engines on a spreadsheet. The upgrades in the next column with the engine at the end. If the plane upgrade used a different engine, then it was at the end of the row for planes then it was on its own row.. Then I sorted by engine. For me, while the Ki-61 Tonies used the Kawasaki Ha-60 engine, the Ki-100 Tonies use the Mitsubishi Ha-33 Engine, so do the Judy 2 and 3. The Jack uses the same engine as the Emily. The entire Tojo line uses the Nakajima Ha-35.

So I am going for the Ki-100 Tony but I am going through the line from the Ki-61a with most of the factories with only on on the Ki-100 Tony. This is so I can see the difference in time to complete the factories and start the research since this is a learning game for me.. I know that there will be die rolls involved, just like every game since PacWar by Gary Grigsby. So whatever game/scenario is played with whatever database is used, a suggestion is to do what I did for the planes and engines. If you already have the experience, you could probably cull the list to the planes that you want. That way you can see the final plane and engine. Maybe you already do that or know enough that you don't have to but that is best for me. Of course, I was not a logistical specialist but a line trooper [:D] so I need things like this put to me in such a simple way.

I am learning a lot from your discussion and I must say, the Allied side is so much easier but its boring - at least against the computer.

[rustysi]

The entire Tojo line uses the Nakajima Ha-35.

Not in scenario 1. It uses the Ha-34.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I'll phase out the Helen in favor of the P1Y2 Francis

You know these aren't interchangeable, one's Army, the other Navy.

Yeah, I know that. Sometimes I just can't tell the difference between IJN and IJA. [8|]

I mean't Peggy, mainly because that model uses the Ha-45. Fewer engines to manage.

[rustysi]

So I am going for the Ki-100 Tony but I am going through the line from the Ki-61a with most of the factories with only on on the Ki-100 Tony.

You'll find by now most of us agree this plane is a waste. If you produce the Tojo, there're essentially the same, so don't waste your R&D on a one engine (the Ki-61's) aircraft.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I'll phase out the Helen in favor of the P1Y2 Francis

You know these aren't interchangeable, one's Army, the other Navy.

Yeah, I know that. Sometimes I just can't tell the difference between IJN and IJA. [8|]

I mean't Peggy, mainly because that model uses the Ha-45. Fewer engines to manage.

Got it, just making sure.[8D]