Comments on Historical Naval Losses in MWIF Turns

[Courtenay]

Two interesting things about this entry:

1) There were more CV losses in this entry than in the whole war up to now.
2) The US and Japanese losses are identical in both number of heavy units (6) and total light units (18).

The US and Japanese naval losses were remarkably equal for the first year of the war. In the whole Guadalcanal campaign, both sides lost 24 combat vessels DD and SS and larger, with tonnage lost being within 10% of each other.

P.S. Kikutsuki is more commonly called Kikuzuki, but this may just be transliteration differences.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Two interesting things about this entry:

1) There were more CV losses in this entry than in the whole war up to now.
2) The US and Japanese losses are identical in both number of heavy units (6) and total light units (18).

The US and Japanese naval losses were remarkably equal for the first year of the war. In the whole Guadalcanal campaign, both sides lost 24 combat vessels DD and SS and larger, with tonnage lost being within 10% of each other.

P.S. Kikutsuki is more commonly called Kikuzuki, but this may just be transliteration differences.

warspite1

The importance of the carrier reflects the theatre - or I suppose more accurately the expanse of the Pacific reflects the development path of the carrier by the two navies.

The two may have been equal but of course the Japanese were fighting the Commonwealth and Dutch too - which puts them ahead - although not by the amount they needed to be (or which they could ever have achieved even if Midway happened in reverse and the Indian Ocean raid more successful).

But, the fact Japan couldn't win the Pacific War, doesn't alter things from a war gaming perspective, and the Pacific War - up to January 1943 - and the Guadalcanal campaign in particular, is (along with the War in the Mediterranean June 1940 - July 1943) probably the most interesting period of the war. Finely balanced forces, low density count, all naval, air and land war types - tanks, infantry, para drops, special forces, partisans, amphibious operations, submarines, carriers, battleships, cruiser warfare, destroyers, monitors - everything a war gamer could want can be found in one or both theatres, supply, logistics, just so much scope.... The fact these haven't been war gamed properly is criminal. Theses periods could be absolute classics if done properly - land, sea and air. Either side could 'win' without need for loads of artificial balancing rules. Ho hum......one day perhaps....[:(] [an unapologetic rant at war game designers for their unforgivable oversight [:D]]


The spelling of Japanese and Soviet names is never going to please everyone I'm afraid [;)].

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
But, the fact Japan couldn't win the Pacific War, doesn't alter things from a war gaming perspective, and the Pacific War - up to January 1943 - and the Guadalcanal campaign in particular, is (along with the War in the Mediterranean June 1940 - July 1943) probably the most interesting period of the war. Finely balanced forces, low density count, all naval, air and land war types - tanks, infantry, para drops, special forces, partisans, amphibious operations, submarines, carriers, battleships, cruiser warfare, destroyers, monitors - everything a war gamer could want can be found in one or both theatres, supply, logistics, just so much scope.... The fact these haven't been war gamed properly is criminal. Theses periods could be absolute classics if done properly - land, sea and air. Either side could 'win' without need for loads of artificial balancing rules. Ho hum......one day perhaps....[:(] [an unapologetic rant at war game designers for their unforgivable oversight [:D]]

Check out https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2529/flat-top

Not a computer game, but one of those monster board games from Avalon Hill in the 80's. Never played it but I've heard it does a good in-depth treatment of this exact time.

[paulderynck]

Umm, Flat Top might make a good computer game but it was a loser as a boardgame. All logistics and no action.

[Courtenay]

I have to confess that I bought the second edition of War in the Pacific. I have never played it, and never expect to play it, but I couldn't resist a game that had individual maps for every single island in the Pacific.

[brian brian]

Best sinking location so far: “off Stromboli”

[brian brian]

HMS Urge found recently near Malta:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-malt ... =applenews

[warspite1]

.

[Orm]

Soviet cruiser Komintern is listed with the wrong nationality in the table. Colour is right but the text say that it is a CW ship.

[Orm]

Is it correct to list Gneisenau as 'lost' when Germany, at first, decided to repair her? And only later decided to abandon the repairs due to a shift in focus?

I do understand the difficulty on how to classify this, and I appreciate your effort. [&o] [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Is it correct to list Gneisenau as 'lost' when Germany, at first, decided to repair her? And only later decided to abandon the repairs due to a shift in focus?

I do understand the difficulty on how to classify this, and I appreciate your effort. [&o] [:)]

warspite1

Thanks I will amend.

Re Gneisenau, yes I think the treatment is okay, and I've done this with others. The problem with doing it the other way is that I then need to keep track of those ships that have been taken to be repaired and have to note the date that stops. In the case of Conte di Cavour that would mean her never showing as lost, despite the fact she wasn't capable of combat from the time of Taranto.

[warspite1]

The intention is to continue to the end of the war but there is unlikely to be much further work until the autumn due to a) weather and b) work commitments.

I will ask VP to remove Orm's post from the actual thread so that this purely contains the bi-monthly tables.

[Orm]

Thank you, warspite1, for your continued effort. I appreciate it. [&o] [:)]


Any chance that the Historical Naval Losses in MWIF Turns can be pinned to the top?

[warspite1]

Project restarted

[Orm]

Awesome news. Thank you.

[Courtenay]

Tremendous!

[rkr1958]

Fantastic! Are you back to playing MWIF too or just this project?

[warspite1]

Fantastic! Are you back to playing MWIF too or just this project?

warspite1

I have not played any wargames for just over a year now. A few weeks back I put MWIF back on my computer - that is the only wargame now - but haven't played with it. Got a couple of projects re-started - this one and the Naval War Day to Day in the General Discussion forum. So that may generate the interest to return to MWIF during 2023.

[rkr1958]

Busy, burnt out on or lost interest in wargaming this past year?

[warspite1]

Busy, burnt out on or lost interest in wargaming this past year?

warspite1

Certainly I’ve been busier at work, but it started with computer problems prematurely ending yet another game. Then I found I haven’t missed wargaming enough to need to get back into it. I must say it feels comforting having MWIF reinstalled though!