OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edition)

[RangerJoe]

The Air Force Just Bought Its First New F-15s in Decades
The F-15EX is really a different Eagle under the hood.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... hter-jets/

[Alpha77]

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit[:)]

[fcooke]

very interesting video. I know why the airforce wants to take it out of service, but seems like a pretty dumb idea.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Air Force Just Bought Its First New F-15s in Decades
The F-15EX is really a different Eagle under the hood.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... hter-jets/

Odd we would need to go back to a nearly 50 year-old design when we had the "new" and "improved" Gen V fighter F-35.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit[:)]

Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Air Force Just Bought Its First New F-15s in Decades
The F-15EX is really a different Eagle under the hood.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... hter-jets/

Odd we would need to go back to a nearly 50 year-old design when we had the "new" and "improved" Gen V fighter F-35.

That is because they are different tools in the tool box and they do different things.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.

50% isn't bad. "Of he 23 F-35s in the test fleet they only had a readiness of 8.7%"

https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2019 ... ess-rates/


"Hangar Queens" is what they call them.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Just don't see how a single seat fighter can manage all that. A two seater with a RIO I can kind of get my head around.

Which is why so much computational power is packed into the F-35.

The modern ide is that smart algorithms do a much better and quicker job than a second pilot/bombardier/navigator whatever, at a cheaper price in the long run too. Main reason why so much development time and cost is involved.

Alfred

Yes, very powerful computers. Can they use those computers and cool weapons while sitting in the hangar?

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

Who knows what war plans are going around in the top "elite" circles - for which they think they need planes like F-35.

Remember the A-10 is not only a tank killer it provides CAS against all kinds targets even the Taliban feared the plane i have read. However against an enemy that has no modern anti air weapons or an air force himself even a P47 can do some damage. Or Skyraiders or those old Fiat G91 ground attack planes etc. Taliban or simmilar "terrorists" have usually only some HMGs and Stingers (or the Russian versions of these) as AA weapons. Compared to WW3 in Europe scenario "quite" low threat.

Even some Shilka AA tanks and older S300 systems or so would change that picture I guess. Serbians managed to shoot down some Nato planes I believe with older AA missile systems.

F-35 in air combat is also not the best compared to eg. SU35 etc. Escept stealth and computer tech. So the new F15 makes sense to have some cheaper but still capable planes for A2A combat. The US also has F16s or not, updated versions are usefull.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

Who knows what war plans are going around in the top "elite" circles - for which they think they need planes like F-35.

Remember the A-10 is not only a tank killer it provides CAS against all kinds targets even the Taliban feared the plane i have read. However against an enemy that has no modern anti air weapons or an air force himself even a P47 can do some damage. Or Skyraiders or those old Fiat G91 ground attack planes etc. Taliban or simmilar "terrorists" have usually only some HMGs and Stingers (or the Russian versions of these) as AA weapons. Compared to WW3 in Europe scenario "quite" low threat.

Even some Shilka AA tanks and older S300 systems or so would change that picture I guess. Serbians managed to shoot down some Nato planes I believe with older AA missile systems.

F-35 in air combat is also not the best compared to eg. SU35 etc. Escept stealth and computer tech. So the new F15 makes sense to have some cheaper but still capable planes for A2A combat. The US also has F16s or not, updated versions are usefull.

I suspect one of the new types of combat the F-35 is supposed to tackle is drone swarms. To handle them you need an aircraft that can detect the individual drones in the swarms, prioritize them and direct its own swarm of drones or missiles to intercept. That is the only scenario I can picture for all the computer and interlink power they are packing into it. None of the other current generation aircraft can handle that role.

[Alpha77]

BB Fanboy, even F16/15s will be able to do this detecting work on many single incomming threats (planes,missiles or drones), especially when fitted with this radar:

Air Force increases its buy of advanced F-16 jet fighter SABR AESA radar avionics buy from Northrop Grumman

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/senso ... et-fighter

"WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB, Ohio – U.S. Air Force aerial warfare experts are ordering additional modern active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for F-16 jet fighter aircraft under terms of an order announced Friday worth more than a quarter billion dollars......"

"...The bandwidth, speed, and agility of AESA radars enable legacy fighter aircraft like the F-16 to detect, track, and identify many targets quickly and at long ranges, and to operate in hostile electronic warfare (EW) environments...."

But there are also Awacs/AEW planes that can do this even better.
Also the stealth will be degraded as soon a plane turns on these powerful radars. ESM systems/radar warning devices will pick up the radiation and can give a picture were the radar orginates from.

[fcooke]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit[:)]

Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

The A-10 is the favorite air support system of ground troops for a reason. Drones have their place but manned aircraft with minds that can think on the fly also have a place. And speaking of relics, it looks like the B-52 will outlive the B-1 and B-2. Just saying.

As for the F-35 program. Trying to stuff all capabilities into one airframe is sort of dumb. P-51s were excellent fighters, not so good at strafing because of their engine. F4 Phantoms worked out well in multiple roles but very very few airframes have been good at doing 'everything'

[Lowpe]

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/ ... ghter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

This piqued my curiosity, so I looked up the transcript from the speech.

Seems to me there's no understanding that developing new technology isn't exactly straightforward, and that despite the large upfront cost, there's the potential for serious secondary benefits.

If one of the main advantages of EMALS is that it puts less strain on the airframe, what does that equate to in terms of write-offs/maintenance hours for USN carrier aircraft? How long does it take to pay off the over-run in that context? Ditto redundancy. Makes sense to have an electric system if you're going to the bother of lugging a nuclear reactor around in the hold of your ship.

Much like the F-35, it's about the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit[:)]

Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

The A-10 is the favorite air support system of ground troops for a reason. Drones have their place but manned aircraft with minds that can think on the fly also have a place. And speaking of relics, it looks like the B-52 will outlive the B-1 and B-2. Just saying.

As for the F-35 program. Trying to stuff all capabilities into one airframe is sort of dumb. P-51s were excellent fighters, not so good at strafing because of their engine. F4 Phantoms worked out well in multiple roles but very very few airframes have been good at doing 'everything'

The B-52 is limited to Stand-off attacks against even 2nd rate AD. All they did in the Yugo conflict was stand-off ALCM attacks. They are obsolete.

B-1s readiness is down to single units they are so bad. Great looking plane, but another waste of money.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... readiness/

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/ ... ghter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.

All the good his talking did. Look at the monstrous F-35 and it's "development" time.

And since when do we design planes in "secret" like this? Obviously to escape oversight.

Who knows what other "Secret", wasteful projects they are working on.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: fcooke

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961





Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

The A-10 is the favorite air support system of ground troops for a reason. Drones have their place but manned aircraft with minds that can think on the fly also have a place. And speaking of relics, it looks like the B-52 will outlive the B-1 and B-2. Just saying.

As for the F-35 program. Trying to stuff all capabilities into one airframe is sort of dumb. P-51s were excellent fighters, not so good at strafing because of their engine. F4 Phantoms worked out well in multiple roles but very very few airframes have been good at doing 'everything'

The B-52 is limited to Stand-off attacks against even 2nd rate AD. All they did in the Yugo conflict was stand-off ALCM attacks. They are obsolete.

Different war, different context. Losses in the context of the breakup of Yugoslavia would have been unpalatable for the American public.

Less so for the intended purpose of the B-52, which was nuclear deterrence, flying low to get close to the Soviet Union to deliver nuclear payloads. In that context, losses are less of a concern. 50% losses are fine if half the payload reaches it's target.

B-1s readiness is down to single units they are so bad. Great looking plane, but another waste of money.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... readiness/

Again, context. B-52 aging, yet the B-2 bomber a fair way off. Sure wouldn't have been a waste of money if the Soviets came pouring through the Fulda Gap and there was a lack of an effective long-range strategic bomber...

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/ ... ghter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.

All the good his talking did. Look at the monstrous F-35 and it's "development" time.

And since when do we design planes in "secret" like this? Obviously to escape oversight.

Who knows what other "Secret", wasteful projects they are working on.

Are you suggesting we should crowd-source future aircraft designs? If so, interesting concept...

[fcooke]

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.

This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

[RangerJoe]

Think of the F-35 as the conductor for the orchestra while the other aircraft are the musicians.