Adjusting Artillery

[Tanaka]

I am also putting my vote in on limiting the shells available per round after watching my opponent Old Crow just evaporate my Central Power fronts in two turns from unlimited shells...game over!

On that note why is artillery in this game so much stronger than the WW2 games? Why so many more shells?? Was not artillery in WW2 more powerful than WW1? This game makes it the other way around!

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I am also putting my vote in on limiting the shells available per round after watching my opponent Old Crow just evaporate my Central Power fronts in two turns from unlimited shells...game over!

On that note why is artillery in this game so much stronger than the WW2 games? Why so many more shells?? Was not artillery in WW2 more powerful than WW1? This game makes it the other way around!

Dude! I don't have max shells with Any of my Entente Powers, (yet). I hoarded the ones I have and I'm using shell discipline. I only have been pumping enough to de-entrench and maybe a little more, (especially Przemzl which is a fortress).
Also, T1 Arty combined with Inf1 follow up attacks on enemies that Only have Trench 2 tech (no concrete) will be eaten like mincemeat. That is what is happening atm in our match.

HOWEVER....while there have been a lot of great ideas about how to temper artillery in this game, removing a chit in artillery research has only been a half measure. The SHELLS need to be fixed..and not by complicated means. Just Remove 1 (ONE) chit from their research tree. Like they say in the army, KISS : Keep It Simple Stupid.

If thats not enough...then restrict it to 1 chit only.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I am also putting my vote in on limiting the shells available per round after watching my opponent Old Crow just evaporate my Central Power fronts in two turns from unlimited shells...game over!

On that note why is artillery in this game so much stronger than the WW2 games? Why so many more shells?? Was not artillery in WW2 more powerful than WW1? This game makes it the other way around!

Dude! I don't have max shells with Any of my Entente Powers, (yet). I hoarded the ones I have and I'm using shell discipline. I only have been pumping enough to de-entrench and maybe a little more, (especially Przemzl which is a fortress).
Also, T1 Arty combined with Inf1 follow up attacks on enemies that Only have Trench 2 tech (no concrete) will be eaten like mincemeat. That is what is happening atm in our match.

HOWEVER....while there have been a lot of great ideas about how to temper artillery in this game, removing a chit in artillery research has only been a half measure. The SHELLS need to be fixed..and not by complicated means. Just Remove 1 (ONE) chit from their research tree. Like they say in the army, KISS : Keep It Simple Stupid.

If thats not enough...then restrict it to 1 chit only.

Well it sure felt like it when you had like 8 artillery pieces fire like 8 times each two turns in a row how was I to know! Or was it the same 4 because I assumed to have that many shells double the artillery? Haha. How did you fire that much two turns in a row? Nothing can survive that much artillery for two turns. Also regarding the trenches I don't know why my research is sooo abysmally slow in this game compared to the last...was research changed in the last patch?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Well it sure felt like it when you had like 8 artillery pieces fire like 8 times each two turns in a row it how was I to know! Or was it the same 4 because I assumed to have that many shells double the artillery? Haha. How did you fire that much two turns in a row? Nothing can survive that much artillery for two turns. Also regarding the trenches I don't know why my research is sooo abysmally slow in this game compared to the last...was research changed in the last patch?

The only research that has changed since the last patch (1.03.00) is the removing of one chit from Artillery research...which has helped somewhat.

Now...about my shell discipline.

one example: France ARTY lvl 1 #B has Shell LvL 2. I waited till I had 10 shells. I bombarded one of your positions (ger Inf corp 0, with a trench lvl of 2) I pumped 2 rounds in to de-trench it. Then, I checked a hypothetical combat check on that corp..saw it still had really high readiness and morale. Pumped 2 more shells into it. ARTY #B has 6 shells left.

I re-check combat probabilities..looks slightly better. Commence ground attack with 3 corps and one followup. Destroy ger Corp. Continue other movements and attacks on other sectors....

Next turn. France ARTY lvl 1 #B regains 3 shells (1 by default + 2 because of level = 3. 3 + 6 shells saved from previous turn = 9 shells.

That's what you are seeing.

Shell Discipline is Essential in this game. At least a 1 chit take away on Shell Research will make it even more essential...and would mirror how it was historically imo.

[Chernobyl]

I set all my artillery to silent mode, plan my shell usage in advance, and air recon where the enemy artillery is and sometimes evacuate certain locations that I know will die. Other times I let my opponent use his shells but I try to at least force him to use a high number of shells if he wants to kill my unit. I sometimes leave a weaker unit in place because it has full entrenchment, rather than moving in a 10/10 corps which would only get half +1 entrenchment before he fires at me. And of course I swap out any unit that got bombarded and somehow survived, because a new unit moving in will get more entrenchment. Due to Industry Tech MPP bloat, MPP becomes a secondary concern to shell numbers and NM.

I haven't gotten to the part of the game where both sides have +4 shells per arty per turn. That seems insane. I just got +3 for turn as Germany and it already feels stupid. Wasn't there a "Shell Crisis" in 1915? Seems everyone should dump 3 chits into Gas/Shell production and if you don't you've made a mistake.

I'm making a mod for fun and I have Gas/Shell Production set to level 2 maximum with only 2 chits invested allowed. But honestly even that might be too much. Might reduce it to 1 maximum Gas/Shell tech for everyone besides Germany France and UK, set max shells equal to 2 + logistics tech, and then equalize the number of guns.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I haven't gotten to the part of the game where both sides have +4 shells per arty per turn. That seems insane.

I have many times...and so have my opponents. It wrecks really good matches between reasonably equal players. A snowball effect begins...and its done by early 1917 at the latest, but mostly far earlier.

One common lament I've heard from both winners and losers is "crap, I don't get to deploy tanks....again!" [:D]

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I'm making a mod for fun and I have Gas/Shell Production set to level 2 maximum with only 2 chits invested allowed. But honestly even that might be too much. Might reduce it to 1 maximum Gas/Shell tech for everyone besides Germany France and UK, set max shells equal to 2 + logistics tech, and then equalize the number of guns.

Chernobyl, I would really be interested to try that mod your working on some point in the future..if possible. AI or Pbem. You obviously understand this problem fully.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Well it sure felt like it when you had like 8 artillery pieces fire like 8 times each two turns in a row it how was I to know! Or was it the same 4 because I assumed to have that many shells double the artillery? Haha. How did you fire that much two turns in a row? Nothing can survive that much artillery for two turns. Also regarding the trenches I don't know why my research is sooo abysmally slow in this game compared to the last...was research changed in the last patch?

The only research that has changed since the last patch (1.03.00) is the removing of one chit from Artillery research...which has helped somewhat.

Now...about my shell discipline.

one example: France ARTY lvl 1 #B has Shell LvL 2. I waited till I had 10 shells. I bombarded one of your positions (ger Inf corp 0, with a trench lvl of 2) I pumped 2 rounds in to de-trench it. Then, I checked a hypothetical combat check on that corp..saw it still had really high readiness and morale. Pumped 2 more shells into it. ARTY #B has 6 shells left.

I re-check combat probabilities..looks slightly better. Commence ground attack with 3 corps and one followup. Destroy ger Corp. Continue other movements and attacks on other sectors....

Next turn. France ARTY lvl 1 #B regains 3 shells (1 by default + 2 because of level = 3. 3 + 6 shells saved from previous turn = 9 shells.

That's what you are seeing.

Shell Discipline is Essential in this game. At least a 1 chit take away on Shell Research will make it even more essential...and would mirror how it was historically imo.

I see now thanks. I tend to use my artillery much more frequently than you and it is interesting to see the difference. Your way is much more deadly all at once for sure. I agree with your assessment about the shell research chit reduction. Great game and if you think I will be surrendering you are highly mistaken! I am learning much and the game is still on! Come at me bro!

[Chernobyl]

(Nevermind I think I saw something I didn't)

[Chernobyl]

Okay guys tell me which of these two schemes you prefer:

Global Changes that affect both plans:
-Artillery may not gain experience and may not gain elite reinforcements
-Elite reinforcements costs decreased to the same as regular reinforcements (tactical artillery will be constantly firing every turn)
-Decrease industry tech to +10% per turn instead of +15% MPP per turn to reduce late game mpp bloat (perhaps reduce chits invested from 3 to 2 also)
-Infantry get +1 de-entrenchment at level 2 weapons

ARTILLERY PLAN A:
Divide Artillery into two units: Heavy Artillery and Tactical Artillery
-Heavy Artillery represents big guns and can only de-entrench and do morale damage (level 2 morale damage reduced)
-Tactical Artillery represents light guns (e.g. French 75) and can only do strength damage (no de-entrenchment or morale damage)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)
-Perhaps give infantry +1 artillery defense if Tactical Artillery level 2 is too damaging

ARTILLERY PLAN B:
Don't divide Artillery into two different units (still does de-entrench, morale and strength damage), slightly INCREASE their number
-Maximum upgrade level 1 (level 2 does too much strength damage especially to weakened units)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)

[shri]

Plan A sounds good, because bulk of the artillery esp France and Russia was light/medium.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Okay guys tell me which of these two schemes you prefer:

Global Changes that affect both plans:
-Artillery may not gain experience and may not gain elite reinforcements
-Elite reinforcements costs decreased to the same as regular reinforcements (tactical artillery will be constantly firing every turn)
-Decrease industry tech to +10% per turn instead of +15% MPP per turn to reduce late game mpp bloat (perhaps reduce chits invested from 3 to 2 also)
-Infantry get +1 de-entrenchment at level 2 weapons

ARTILLERY PLAN A:
Divide Artillery into two units: Heavy Artillery and Tactical Artillery
-Heavy Artillery represents big guns and can only de-entrench and do morale damage (level 2 morale damage reduced)
-Tactical Artillery represents light guns (e.g. French 75) and can only do strength damage (no de-entrenchment or morale damage)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)
-Perhaps give infantry +1 artillery defense if Tactical Artillery level 2 is too damaging

ARTILLERY PLAN B:
Don't divide Artillery into two different units (still does de-entrench, morale and strength damage), slightly INCREASE their number
-Maximum upgrade level 1 (level 2 does too much strength damage especially to weakened units)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)

I like the Global Change without choosing Plan A or B (yet, or is the Global Change a separate option that can be used without A or B is what I mean.)

btw..is this an additional part of the mod details you mailed to me earlier?

[Chernobyl]

Haha well I have a scenario saved that has quite a few changes. And then I realized no one is going to agree to all of them. So it would probably be better to release a "lite" version of my scenario that only has the "most popular and agreed upon" changes

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Haha well I have a scenario saved that has quite a few changes. And then I realized no one is going to agree to all of them. So it would probably be better to release a "lite" version of my scenario that only has the "most popular and agreed upon" changes

lol..ok. Your still collecting data and what all us rascals want and don't want.

well, I like the Global Changes...so there! [:D]

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Okay guys tell me which of these two schemes you prefer:

Global Changes that affect both plans:
-Artillery may not gain experience and may not gain elite reinforcements
-Elite reinforcements costs decreased to the same as regular reinforcements (tactical artillery will be constantly firing every turn)
-Decrease industry tech to +10% per turn instead of +15% MPP per turn to reduce late game mpp bloat (perhaps reduce chits invested from 3 to 2 also)
-Infantry get +1 de-entrenchment at level 2 weapons

ARTILLERY PLAN A:
Divide Artillery into two units: Heavy Artillery and Tactical Artillery
-Heavy Artillery represents big guns and can only de-entrench and do morale damage (level 2 morale damage reduced)
-Tactical Artillery represents light guns (e.g. French 75) and can only do strength damage (no de-entrenchment or morale damage)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)
-Perhaps give infantry +1 artillery defense if Tactical Artillery level 2 is too damaging

ARTILLERY PLAN B:
Don't divide Artillery into two different units (still does de-entrench, morale and strength damage), slightly INCREASE their number
-Maximum upgrade level 1 (level 2 does too much strength damage especially to weakened units)
-Maximum shells per turn limited to 2 instead of 4 (one level of gas/shell production tech)
-Maximum stored shells limited to 3 instead of 10 (two levels of logistics tech)

I don't have a preference at the moment, but all those changes to Artillery are worth looking at in some detail to see what works best. My idea in my Mod works OK in terms of balance between Central Powers and Entente across the various fronts - and the 3 hex range does allow counter battery fire, but I would like to see a version with bigger guns and smaller guns (Your Plan A) so I could compare it with mine. I also think Your Plan B is an interesting variation on what I have done because the reduced number of shells does allow more guns which is a weakness in my idea. The Industry measure to address late game MPP bloat is also interesting (although I think ending the ability to re-fit "destroyed Infantry units" for 135 MPP by December 1916 to represent the beginning of serious manpower shortages would be good too).

[Patrat]

Just my 2 cents,,, I would prefer not to have 2 different kinds of Artillery to deal with. I think the KISS principal should be applied to any changes to Artillery.

IMO its much more likely to get a change implemented by the developers if you Keep It Simple.

[Chernobyl]

By the way, does Artillery Defense actually do anything? I am testing setting artillery to Hard Attack = 9 and firing on a corps that has Artillery Defense = 9 and the understrength artillery unit is doing about 5 strength damage PER SHOT to the corps

I tested arty defense = 1 vs arty defense = 10 and there doesn't seem to be ANY difference. Both corps in range show the same predicted damage (5 or 6 damage per shot) no matter what their artillery defense value is. I think this may be a bug.

[stockwellpete]

I am playing my first MP game as CP and I look like making it into late 1915 at least. On the Western Front it has been a bit like a "phoney war", where both us are probably keeping our powder dry while we build up our artillery arm. Early artillery is fairly weak and I have not fired my German unit at all. This is not really right though, is it? Because early artillery was just as lethal as late war artillery in many circumstances. What changed during the war quite considerably was artillery doctrine (e.g. creeping barrages, flash spotting etc) and the massive increase in shells (many were duds though when the numbers were first increased). So I think there are two things to put into the pot called "Adjusting artillery" for consideration -

1) correcting the feebleness of early war artillery by allowing them to de-entrench from the outset (should help to encourage more dynamic early play rather than a "phoney war")
2) the possibility of getting a "dud" result occasionally with artillery fire (maybe a 1 in 10 chance on average)

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I am playing my first MP game as CP and I look like making it into late 1915 at least. On the Western Front it has been a bit like a "phoney war", where both us are probably keeping our powder dry while we build up our artillery arm. Early artillery is fairly weak and I have not fired my German unit at all. This is not really right though, is it? Because early artillery was just as lethal as late war artillery in many circumstances. What changed during the war quite considerably was artillery doctrine (e.g. creeping barrages, flash spotting etc) and the massive increase in shells (many were duds though when the numbers were first increased). So I think there are two things to put into the pot called "Adjusting artillery" for consideration -

1) correcting the feebleness of early war artillery by allowing them to de-entrench from the outset (should help to encourage more dynamic early play rather than a "phoney war")
2) the possibility of getting a "dud" result occasionally with artillery fire (maybe a 1 in 10 chance on average)

First...Good Luck on your first MP! May the storm gods favor your enterprise.

Talking about pre-tech 1 artillery, I have been able to use them with great effect in demoralizing a target, especially in conjunction with the recon bomber.

Example: I as the CP was able to encroach on the Russian fortress of Novo-Georgievsk in Poland. I had 4 corps on it. I then got a message 'Novo-Georgievsk besieged..defenders morale reduced' (or something along those lines) So that turn I pushed up the arty behind my line...waiting for the turn I could upgrade it.

Next turn..upgrading the art still was shy, but I checked the fort defenders morale..it was really low...and decided to commence an attack on it. Recon Bmr first...then the arty about 6 shells...then a 4 corp attack. The defenders morale was down so low I was able to destroy it...and occupy the fort. It was even a turn of mud...but it worked!

Since that fandango worked...I have occasionally used pre-tech 1 arty in a similar fashion in other matches.
So...there is some utility in early artillery..just not the detrenching, but as a morale destabilizer, it works well.

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

First...Good Luck on your first MP! May the storm gods favor your enterprise.

Talking about pre-tech 1 artillery, I have been able to use them with great effect in demoralizing a target, especially in conjunction with the recon bomber.

Example: I as the CP was able to encroach on the Russian fortress of Novo-Georgievsk in Poland. I had 4 corps on it. I then got a message 'Novo-Georgievsk besieged..defenders morale reduced' (or something along those lines) So that turn I pushed up the arty behind my line...waiting for the turn I could upgrade it.

Next turn..upgrading the art still was shy, but I checked the fort defenders morale..it was really low...and decided to commence an attack on it. Recon Bmr first...then the arty about 6 shells...then a 4 corp attack. The defenders morale was down so low I was able to destroy it...and occupy the fort. It was even a turn of mud...but it worked!

Since that fandango worked...I have occasionally used pre-tech 1 arty in a similar fashion in other matches.
So...there is some utility in early artillery..just not the detrenching, but as a morale destabilizer, it works well.

Yes, I am sure you are right for occasional circumstances. It sounds like what you are describing happened in early 1915. I still wonder whether artillery should at least have a chance to de-entrench from the start of the game. In my mod they are able to and doesn't seem to unbalance things much at all. If you look at the early war schedule of when artillery is introduced into the game . . .

August 1914 - Germany 1st

January 1915 - Russian 1st

February 1915 - French 1st, Austro-Hungarian 1st

March 1915 - UK 1st

You also have the scripts that gives the UK artillery options in Egypt and Mesopotamia and Russia artillery options in the Caucasus (I always turn these scripts off now).

So there is not actually that many artillery units in the first 6 months of the war and extra purchases of artillery units and Tech advances do not start kick in until mid 1915.