Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW?

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Subs in silent mode should probably not be spottable by adjacent enemy ships. It should take a direct encounter to find the damn thing.

Subs should probably do a super alpha strike to any BB,CC,CA or DN that runs directly into them when they weren't already spotted. Think 7th Cruiser Squadron 1914, HMS Barham... Central Powers submarines sunk 10 battleships and 18 cruisers during the WWI! They shouldn't do this alpha strike to DD or Torpedo Boats though. DD should stop and spot them if they attempt to cruise over an enemy sub hex.

But similarly subs in silent mode should be blind. They shouldn't be super scouts. Historically the Germans (and Japanese in WWII etc) attempted to use sub flotillas to locate enemy fleets, but the results were usually poor to mediocre at best. Certainly not reliable. Wikipedia also implies that WWI subs had worse visibility while submerged. Maybe someone who knows the naval history could confirm or deny this. While "silent mode" doesn't equate precisely to submerged, it does partly. So that helps to justify why silent subs could not have vision of adjacent hexes.

Nice ideas. I know the Japanese used subs as scouts very poorly as well. Maybe they should only be able to scout in hunt mode?

[Chernobyl]

Thanks. And I know my ideas would be big changes and there are probably balance issues with them. Not trying to be bossy, just offering suggestions. I think it is great that the developers are paying attention to improving this game. I know they are also busy working on other games.

[Tanaka]

Another idea is subs not being attacked by ships with no ASW such as battleships as you approach them when they are hidden...

[Tanaka]

So the only use of my subs I have found I can do without the complete annihilation of all of them is cutting of the Russian supply line so my opponent just turned it off. I found some success! [:D] So now should I go again through the English Channel of death with them or around the northern Scottish Cape of Bad Hope?

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Another idea is subs not being attacked by ships with no ASW such as battleships

Yes I really support this. Unfortunately I can't figure out a way to make this happen in the editor. The best I can do is eliminate the ridiculous BC/CA/CL +1 sub attack from anti-sub tech upgrades. I would prefer to make it so Battleships simply aren't allowed to attack subs*

*This change would require some further rebalance, particularly with respect to the Russian sub in the Black Sea which is already a little overpowered against the puny Ottoman destroyer.

Since I can't do that, I am experimenting with giving subs a defense value of 1 in my mod (in vanilla it starts at 0 and stays at 0 even if you upgrade your subs). In that way, battleships might be deterred from contributing to the anti-sub gangbangs. You can still do it, but you might take damage. I increased DD starting anti-sub damage from 1 -> 2 and increased their anti-sub upgrades to the following: 2, 3, 3, 4 while sub defense will get something like 1, 2, 2, 3.

The biggest change I am considering is lowering submarine vision to 0 to prevent it from acting as a super scout. I'd love to lower the sub-searching vision of vessels and aircraft but there doesn't seem to be any way to selectively alter vision. I even briefly considered lowering all naval vessels to 0 vision but I think that might create other big problems.

Note: I can't seem to find any information about WWI Light Cruisers and depth charges. Did they typically carry ASW weaponry? I know WWII Light Cruisers often had some depth charges but I can't find any solid WWI info on this point.

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
So now should I go again through the English Channel of death with them

Against a human you can still get away with some VERY LIMITED sub attacks if you are extremely patient and silent move them all the way to bizarre map locations. Southwest Atlantic near South America or if they are doing the Russian convoy then you can silent move a sub up to Santa's house and do a couple raids then slip away.

Even if you successfully raid and then slip away, you still need to make it back home, and a smart human will be patrolling near the blockade area. I usually try to figure out the location of his CVL, mines and patrolling subs (this needs rebalance because subs are too good at finding all kinds of ships including enemy subs). Outside of a large fleet battle where subs actually block for your more valuable warships, subs are usually alone and just trying to make it home. And in those cases, a found sub is pretty much a dead sub.

Sometimes if you have multiple subs one can scout ahead for the others.

The English Channel really doesn't work against a smart human as I mentioned before because he will patrol with aircraft and or block it with ships/mines.

You need to note that the cost of losing a couple subs is far greater than several successful raids, both in MPP and in NM. This is also a balance issue that needs to be addressed which I will attempt to do in my mod. I'm not sure if there's any way to lower the NM swing from losing a certain unit, but I can at least do something like lower the cost of submarines and increase the NM/MPP damage they do in raids.

[Chernobyl]

Oh yeah I also want to increase some of the NM hexes and enlarge the "size" of some of the convoy routes by making them zigzag with waypoints especially the closer you get to England. Could look ugly but I think they need to be larger in diameter. You shouldn't be able to completely scout down a convoy line with one only one CL

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Another idea is subs not being attacked by ships with no ASW such as battleships

Yes I really support this. Unfortunately I can't figure out a way to make this happen in the editor. The best I can do is eliminate the ridiculous BC/CA/CL +1 sub attack from anti-sub tech upgrades. I would prefer to make it so Battleships simply aren't allowed to attack subs*

*This change would require some further rebalance, particularly with respect to the Russian sub in the Black Sea which is already a little overpowered against the puny Ottoman destroyer.

Since I can't do that, I am experimenting with giving subs a defense value of 1 in my mod (in vanilla it starts at 0 and stays at 0 even if you upgrade your subs). In that way, battleships might be deterred from contributing to the anti-sub gangbangs. You can still do it, but you might take damage. I increased DD starting anti-sub damage from 1 -> 2 and increased their anti-sub upgrades to the following: 2, 3, 3, 4 while sub defense will get something like 1, 2, 2, 3.

The biggest change I am considering is lowering submarine vision to 0 to prevent it from acting as a super scout. I'd love to lower the sub-searching vision of vessels and aircraft but there doesn't seem to be any way to selectively alter vision. I even briefly considered lowering all naval vessels to 0 vision but I think that might create other big problems.

Note: I can't seem to find any information about WWI Light Cruisers and depth charges. Did they typically carry ASW weaponry? I know WWII Light Cruisers often had some depth charges but I can't find any solid WWI info on this point.

Love your ideas hopefully a mod is not necessary and the Devs will work on these issues!

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Note: I can't seem to find any information about WWI Light Cruisers and depth charges. Did they typically carry ASW weaponry? I know WWII Light Cruisers often had some depth charges but I can't find any solid WWI info on this point.

I have had a quick look and found this excellent website and it had this list of German submarines sunk during WW1. There were a wide range of causes but depth charges were relatively rare (introduced in 1916) and it looks like destroyers (also Q-ships and trawlers) were the main users of them . . .

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/sml00001.htm

On this website the light cruisers do not have depth charges listed among their armaments. For example . . .

http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/lightcru.htm

[Chernobyl]

Because submarines get gangstomped if they attempt to convoy raid (vs humans, you can raid vs the AI pretty darn effectively), I tend to use them for what they actually do best: advance fleet scouts.

Subs prowling around in the Baltic can detect Russian mines or Russian subs that might try to raid the Sweden convoy, then your fleet can pounce and give the Entente some of their own medicine with your DD

Subs in the Med can convoy raid quite close to certain ports in Turkey and Greece if you conquer Greece. Raiding once or twice might force the Entente to keep a bunch of ships around waiting near Greece/Egypt and think twice about doing some micro landing (though they can usually scout ahead with their own subs so it's not too tough). But there's not much space and it's pretty obvious where your subs will go if they intend to raid. Also there are some chokepoints if you attempt to return home to port especially if you attempt to raid in an unpredictable location (tough to make it home safely if you raid in the western Med) and you CAN easily lose subs even if they raid close to home ports.

HOWEVER the MAIN effect of subs in the Med is that they can sail to Constantinople and provide scouting for your modest Turkish fleet. If the Russians blockade Zonguldak with their own submarine, your lone destroyer can't damage it fast enough to make it retreat, and it will do substantial economic damage to Turkey (whose MPP are more valuable simply because Turkey has few MPP). You really need to use your whole Turkish fleet to attack the sub to lower its supply by 4 each turn (and even then it may still be worth it for Russia to repair a sub but cause MPP damage to Ottomans). HOWEVER attacking the sub with all your ships can be extremely risky to do because the Russian player can keep a DN or BB hidden at sea along the path to their sub. So ysou need a scout to make sure the sea path is clear to the Russian sub off Zonguldak. You can do this with aircraft too but it's less reliable due to the weather and I find I don't have any aircraft to spare in 1915. So anyhow, if your submarine detects their Black Sea fleet, you actually have a really good chance of sinking their DN especially if you repaired your BB. Furthermore, the sub can also provide scouting for any brave Entente vessels that stray too close to the Dardanelles from the Aegean side. This provides opportunities for "free" damage to enemy naval vessels (you get to retreat safely to port or to the Sea of Marmara).

Overall this kind of scouting is actually far more beneficial to your war effort than any convoy raiding you might do, and FAR less risky.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Because submarines get gangstomped if they attempt to convoy raid (vs humans, you can raid vs the AI pretty darn effectively), I tend to use them for what they actually do best: advance fleet scouts.

Subs prowling around in the Baltic can detect Russian mines or Russian subs that might try to raid the Sweden convoy, then your fleet can pounce and give the Entente some of their own medicine with your DD

Subs in the Med can convoy raid quite close to certain ports in Turkey and Greece if you conquer Greece. Raiding once or twice might force the Entente to keep a bunch of ships around waiting near Greece/Egypt and think twice about doing some micro landing (though they can usually scout ahead with their own subs so it's not too tough). But there's not much space and it's pretty obvious where your subs will go if they intend to raid. Also there are some chokepoints if you attempt to return home to port especially if you attempt to raid in an unpredictable location (tough to make it home safely if you raid in the western Med) and you CAN easily lose subs even if they raid close to home ports.

HOWEVER the MAIN effect of subs in the Med is that they can sail to Constantinople and provide scouting for your modest Turkish fleet. If the Russians blockade Zonguldak with their own submarine, your lone destroyer can't damage it fast enough to make it retreat, and it will do substantial economic damage to Turkey (whose MPP are more valuable simply because Turkey has few MPP). You really need to use your whole Turkish fleet to attack the sub to lower its supply by 4 each turn (and even then it may still be worth it for Russia to repair a sub but cause MPP damage to Ottomans). HOWEVER attacking the sub with all your ships can be extremely risky to do because the Russian player can keep a DN or BB hidden at sea along the path to their sub. So ysou need a scout to make sure the sea path is clear to the Russian sub off Zonguldak. You can do this with aircraft too but it's less reliable due to the weather and I find I don't have any aircraft to spare in 1915. So anyhow, if your submarine detects their Black Sea fleet, you actually have a really good chance of sinking their DN especially if you repaired your BB. Furthermore, the sub can also provide scouting for any brave Entente vessels that stray too close to the Dardanelles from the Aegean side. This provides opportunities for "free" damage to enemy naval vessels (you get to retreat safely to port or to the Sea of Marmara).

Overall this kind of scouting is actually far more beneficial to your war effort than any convoy raiding you might do, and FAR less risky.

Subs in the Med? How do you even get them out of the Adriatic or Dardanelles and keep them alive? Impossible! ASW seems much more powerful in the WW1 game. You can say subs were in their infancy but so was ASW...

[stockwellpete]

Against the AI I can get A-H subs into the Mediterranean once I have taken Cetinje. Even then they do come under considerable pressure, but deploying (higher Tech) German subs at Pola really helps and you can do a lot of damage to Entente convoy routes.

I think the relationship between destroyers/light cruisers, ASW Tech and submarines is OK, but Maritime Bombers are too powerful against submarines. Basically, I think they should be used for reconnaissance.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

Against the AI I can get A-H subs into the Mediterranean once I have taken Cetinje. Even then they do come under considerable pressure, but deploying (higher Tech) German subs at Pola really helps and you can do a lot of damage to Entente convoy routes.

I think the relationship between destroyers/light cruisers, ASW Tech and submarines is OK, but Maritime Bombers are too powerful against submarines. Basically, I think they should be used for reconnaissance.

Maritime Bombers were already reduced and is one of the few defenses you have to try and clear a path though allied doom fleet hordes lol. I actually think Blimp naval attack should be stronger. Mainly talking about MP though...

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Maritime Bombers were already reduced and is one of the few defenses you have to try and clear a path though allied doom fleet hordes lol. I actually think Blimp naval attack should be stronger. Mainly talking about MP though...

I am talking specifically about Maritime Bombers and submarines, not other shipping. Hardly any subs were sunk by Maritime Bombers/Seaplanes in WW1 although they did help to identify their positions for friendly shipping to go after them.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Maritime Bombers were already reduced and is one of the few defenses you have to try and clear a path though allied doom fleet hordes lol. I actually think Blimp naval attack should be stronger. Mainly talking about MP though...

I am talking specifically about Maritime Bombers and submarines, not other shipping. Hardly any subs were sunk by Maritime Bombers/Seaplanes in WW1 although they did help to identify their positions for friendly shipping to go after them.

Ah gotcha you mean the ASW of Maritime Bombers? Agreed!

"By 1918 the Allied anti-submarine measures had continued to become more effective. Aircraft began to play an increasingly effective role in patrolling large areas quickly. While they had little effect when attacking (only one U-boat was confirmed as sunk by air attack) the presence of aircraft forced the U-boat to dive, becoming blind and immobile, or risk the air patrol summoning hunting warships to the scene. During 1918 no convoy escorted by air patrol lost a ship, and U-boats were forced increasingly to operate at night or beyond aircraft range."

"Of the 373 German submarines that had been built, 178 were lost by enemy action. Of these 40 were sunk by mines, 30 by depth charges and 13 by Q-ships."

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete
Maritime Bombers are too powerful against submarines. Basically, I think they should be used for reconnaissance.

Reconnaissance is honestly what is too powerful against subs. Any ship (including submarines), blimp or aircraft can easily search/patrol for subs coming in and out of the Atlantic, and it quickly becomes impossible to head out to sea without being detected and gangstomped. Even if the Allied player does not commit mines or vessels to the Channel, a submarine attempting to silent move back to Antwerp will be detected by Entente aircraft and then battered by vessels which were patrolling the unrestricted warfare NM hex area.

I haven't really been able to come up with an idea to make sub raiding in the Atlantic viable. Subs simply need to be more difficult to detect but there's no way to do that in the editor besides give them a monstrous movement speed. This would make them too powerful (especially as scouts themselves).

So as it is, the German subs will mostly stay in port (or the Baltic) vs a human player.

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Subs in the Med? How do you even get them out of the Adriatic or Dardanelles

I've had some success sneaking subs out of the Adriatic early game but I think this is mostly due to errors on my opponent's part. If they kept a decent patrol going they would have detected my sub. Once again, part of the issue is that submarines are too good at scouting for little risk. The Entente can use its own submarines as effective detectors (tripwires) during the Centrals' turn, and then on top of that still search an area, returning to its optimal tripwire/spy cam hex at the end of every turn. You can't run past them and you can't sneak past them either.

Now once you conquer Greece it becomes easier to break out of the Adriatic with submarines and the Entente does have to retreat a little bit from the zone where your surface vessels could possibly hit and then return to port in one turn.

But I don't think it's possible to do much raider damage with them. MAYBE after Greece falls you can do a bit of Egypt convoy damage near your new ports, or at least force the Entente to commit more vessels to the area.

But you're not going to be roving the Med doing hundreds of MPP points of damage. It's pretty obvious where your subs will be (all they have to do is patrol the red lines and have a gank team on standby).

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Subs in the Med? How do you even get them out of the Adriatic or Dardanelles

I've had some success sneaking subs out of the Adriatic early game but I think this is mostly due to errors on my opponent's part. If they kept a decent patrol going they would have detected my sub. Once again, part of the issue is that submarines are too good at scouting for little risk. The Entente can use its own submarines as effective detectors (tripwires) during the Centrals' turn, and then on top of that still search an area, returning to its optimal tripwire/spy cam hex at the end of every turn. You can't run past them and you can't sneak past them either.

Now once you conquer Greece it becomes easier to break out of the Adriatic with submarines and the Entente does have to retreat a little bit from the zone where your surface vessels could possibly hit and then return to port in one turn.

But I don't think it's possible to do much raider damage with them. MAYBE after Greece falls you can do a bit of Egypt convoy damage near your new ports, or at least force the Entente to commit more vessels to the area.

But you're not going to be roving the Med doing hundreds of MPP points of damage. It's pretty obvious where your subs will be (all they have to do is patrol the red lines and have a gank team on standby). And the pain of losing a sub (MPP damage, big NM swing) is far higher than doing some turns of raiding.
[/quote]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Subs in the Med? How do you even get them out of the Adriatic or Dardanelles

I've had some success sneaking subs out of the Adriatic early game but I think this is mostly due to errors on my opponent's part. If they kept a decent patrol going they would have detected my sub. Once again, part of the issue is that submarines are too good at scouting for little risk. The Entente can use its own submarines as effective detectors (tripwires) during the Centrals' turn, and then on top of that still search an area, returning to its optimal tripwire/spy cam hex at the end of every turn. You can't run past them and you can't sneak past them either.

Now once you conquer Greece it becomes easier to break out of the Adriatic with submarines and the Entente does have to retreat a little bit from the zone where your surface vessels could possibly hit and then return to port in one turn.

But I don't think it's possible to do much raider damage with them. MAYBE after Greece falls you can do a bit of Egypt convoy damage near your new ports, or at least force the Entente to commit more vessels to the area.

But you're not going to be roving the Med doing hundreds of MPP points of damage. It's pretty obvious where your subs will be (all they have to do is patrol the red lines and have a gank team on standby).

Oh you might be able to get them out but can you get them back in? I'm also impressed if you have conquered Greece! Against a human player that is...

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete
Maritime Bombers are too powerful against submarines. Basically, I think they should be used for reconnaissance.

Reconnaissance is honestly what is too powerful against subs. Any ship (including submarines), blimp or aircraft can easily search/patrol for subs coming in and out of the Atlantic, and it quickly becomes impossible to head out to sea without being detected and gangstomped. Even if the Allied player does not commit mines or vessels to the Channel, a submarine attempting to silent move back to Antwerp will be detected by Entente aircraft and then battered by vessels which were patrolling the unrestricted warfare NM hex area.

I haven't really been able to come up with an idea to make sub raiding in the Atlantic viable. Subs simply need to be more difficult to detect but there's no way to do that in the editor besides give them a monstrous movement speed. This would make them too powerful (especially as scouts themselves).

So as it is, the German subs will mostly stay in port (or the Baltic) vs a human player.

Have you played WIE/WAW? Subs work quite well in these games...