HB (Axis) vs MM (Allies) No MM for now

[malkarma]

A full France conquer will end with the whole french fleet in the hands of the uK...we are taling about some thousands of PP for free. Just read my AVis game against MM, in which in neqarly sunbk the whole bitish fleet...buyt still failed to control the med due those exttra ships. For me, the full conquer vcan be resumed in this: "Never before, never again".

ps: Also a full conquer will gran Syria to the UK for free unles you quickly move units there as soon as Paris is taken and Italy joins the war.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Vichy. What does North Africa do for you besides create a lot more places to garrison? And why hand over the French Navy?

The only reason to knock out France entirely like this is if you intend to go all in on the West. If you are planning on a 41 Barbarossa, wrap this up ASAP.

My usual plan is to DOW Vichy as soon as France falls anyway and then proceed to conquer both mainland France and French North Africa. My reasoning is:

1. I may actually need the 2 Vichy Victory hexes to score enough points to win a VP Victory. Keep in mind I have not (yet) captured either Oslo or Amsterdam.

2. I have found from experience that if as the Axis you don't capture Vichy France and French North Africa it gives the Allies easy access to first Italy and later Mainland Europe. Keep in mind that the Allies now need to capture Tripoli to cause an Italian surrender.

I am not saying you don't have some very good points; in fact it is because you make such good points that I am having such a hard time deciding this.

I seem to recall you previously posting that you do DOW Vichy right after France falls, have you changes your view on this?

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: malkarma

A full France conquer will end with the whole french fleet in the hands of the uK...we are taling about some thousands of PP for free. Just read my AVis game against MM, in which in neqarly sunbk the whole bitish fleet...buyt still failed to control the med due those exttra ships. For me, the full conquer vcan be resumed in this: "Never before, never again".

ps: Also a full conquer will gran Syria to the UK for free unles you quickly move units there as soon as Paris is taken and Italy joins the war.

You make a good point about the French Fleet. But I don't really plan to contest the Allies much at sea anyway.

The UK will get Syria for free anyway. They already have troops on the border waiting for France to fall. If the Vichy Syrian garrison destroys even 1 point of UK forces I will be surprised.

But just as I told Flavius, you are probably right. I have to think on it some more.

[Flaviusx]

It's better to let the allies spend the time and effort to take North Africa and then respond to this than to try to preempt it, imo.

The biggest reason to take NA and Vichy early just went away in this patch: Spain. Now that Portugal triggers Spain you have a bit more leeway in Iberia. Beforehand it was very tempting to Dow Vichy immediately after getting it to surrender in order to get better access to Spain. That meant taking NA along the way.

Letting this slide also means you don't have to garrison a bunch of ports. Something like 3 corps equivalents, which is no joke.

[Harrybanana]

Still JULY 19, 1940

I take take the wise advice being offered and limit my moves to conquering France to accept the Vichy surrender. I am still worried about not conquering Vichy France and French North Africa, so we will have to see how that works out.

[Harrybanana]

Aug 2, 1940

5 MS and an escort sunk, but I also took 3 U-Boat hits.

After examining the map (below) I change my mind again and decide to try for the full French surrender. It may prove to be a mistake, but if ever there was a time to go for it I figure this has to be it. Not only is French army just about destroyed but 2 French BBs are in bombing range, one in Dover and one in the port I captured NW of Lille. Unfortunately I did a poor job of cropping the map so you can only see part of one of them. Also Marseilles was unoccupied. A problem was that since I wasn't planning on doing this I didn't have any Italian corps available to invade as all the ones in range were all in garrison mode. So I used HQs instead.

[Harrybanana]

I bombed the 2 French BBs and after several strikes (and several destroyed bombers) I sink them both. I captured Marseilles with my HQ forcing the French Fleet stationed there to retreat. I then moved in my Italian fleet, the French intercepted and I sunk another BB and a CA. I think I would have done well without the ambush, but I will take it.

[Harrybanana]

The map at the end of my turn. I am hoping to capture Metz next turn, but it might be a tough nut to crack. It occurred to me afterwards that once France surrenders the UK will also receive the French MSs and the unsinkable French escort. I regret this more than I do them getting the remainders of the French Fleet.

[Harrybanana]

I also invaded (again with an HQ) a port in French North Africa. My fear is that MM will transport UK units into Algiers and other ports in French North Africa. If so, I will have to fight him here anyway. My understanding is that UK units in French North Africa will be moved to the build queue if Vichy is declared, but will stay in place if there is a full French surrender.

[Harrybanana]

AUGUST 16, 1940

Only 2 MS sunk and my out of supply U=Boats return to port.

The attack on Metz proved less expensive than I feared.

[Harrybanana]

But MM did occupy Algiers and Oran with British units. This forces me to invade Bone. So really I am no further ahead and in fact even worse off than if I had just accepted the Vichy surrender and then invaded Vichy. Obviously I should have listened to the good advice I received.

I build a German armour and 10 supply trucks. The Italians build an infantry corps and 10 supply trucks. Did I mention that I disbanded both the Italian armour and mechanized units.

[Harrybanana]

August 30, 1940

No MS sunk as my U-Boats started the turn in port. But I take yet another page out of MM's book and sortie with the German Fleet. I had a bit of a panic attack after I moved the fleet as I forgot to change it into Raider mode. But luckily I remembered this before moving any other units and also remembered that there is an undo button (Whew!).

[Harrybanana]

France surrenders. I didn't think I would be able to move units into the formerly French ports this turn, but I was wrong. Now I will have to see how strongly MM will contest me in Algeria.

[Harrybanana]

Quiet in Libya/Egypt.

[Harrybanana]

I also prepare to invade Yugoslavia. But with only 2 likely clear turns left and exhausted panzer units this could be tougher than usual. The Germans build another armour and U-Boat.

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

France surrenders. I didn't think I would be able to move units into the formerly French ports this turn, but I was wrong. Now I will have to see how strongly MM will contest me in Algeria.

That's gotta be a bug.[;)] How is it a French surrender allows both the Allies and Axis to have access to the ports? Should be one or the other? I would figure, the ports remain Free French allied with UK.

( p. 88 )If its major country ally surrenders, it will choose a new major allied country.

[Harrybanana]

I don't think it is a bug. The British units moved in before France surrendered and the ports were still under Allied/French control. Generally when a country surrenders all of it's territory reverts to the control of the conqueror. The exception are hexes occupied by units of the former Allies of the conquered nation, which remain in the control of the former Ally. For example this is what happens when the Allies conquer Italy. At the beginning of the Allies turn that Italy surrenders (ie on the turn after the Axis fail to capture back enough production Cities) than all former Italian territory reverts to the Allies except those hexes occupied by German units. But I am pretty sure that when this has happened I have tried to transport UK units into former Italian ports and they have not been able to unload, even though they were coloured UK control. I have not been able to unload Allied units until the following turn. So that is why I was surprised that I was able to transport the Axis units into the former French ports in French North Africa. I thought I would have to wait a turn. So I am not sure what the bug is, that Allied units can't transport into former Italian ports on the same turn that Italy surrenders, or that Axis units can unload into former French ports on the same turn that France surrenders.

Of course, the exception to all of the above is if the Germans accept the Vichy surrender. In this case all of the above rules are applied to all of mainland France that is "Occupied France"; so British units remains in place. But all British units in Vichy France (including French North Africa and Syria) get booted out. I have created a thread on the Forum where I am lobbying to have this changed.

[ago1000]

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize that French minors were impacted that way(p. 25). I've read this too many times.

Edit: Just tested both cases, Italian and French full surrender, Hotseat. Hexes change ownership during your opponents turn in both cases. This give your opponent time to capture necessary ports. So a French surrender occurs during the Allies turn and all hexes not occupied by Allies are converted to German control at that time.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize that French minors were impacted that way(p. 25). I've read this too many times.

Edit: Just tested both cases, Italian and French full surrender, Hotseat. Hexes change ownership during your opponents turn in both cases. This give your opponent time to capture necessary ports. So a French surrender occurs during the Allies turn and all hexes not occupied by Allies are converted to German control at that time.

I am not quite sure what you mean by the above. using the example of the Italian surrender my understanding of the sequence is as follows:

1. On an Allies Turn, the Allies capture enough Italian production and population cities to Trigger Italian Surrender.

2. On the Axis next turn the Axis still has full control of all Italian hexes and units. Accordingly, the Axis can move German units into Italian controlled hexes by regular movement, rail or transport. If at the end of this Axis turn the Axis have recaptured enough Italian production and population Cities to increase Italian morale back over the surrender threshold than Italy will not surrender.

3. At the start of the next Allies Turn, if the Axis have not recaptured enough Italian Cities, than Italy surrenders and all Italian hexes not occupied by German (or Axis minor) units convert to the control of the conquering Allied nation.

This much I understand. What I don't know is whether or not the Allied player can transport units by sea into the formerly Italian ports it now controls. In previous versions of the game I know I could move units by sea into these ports, but I could not disembark. It was the same as if I had captured the ports that turn by a naval invasion. So I don't know if this is bug that has been fixed or what. So age1000, did you try to transport an Allies unit into a formerly Italian port and, if so, could you disembark?

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize that French minors were impacted that way(p. 25). I've read this too many times.

Edit: Just tested both cases, Italian and French full surrender, Hotseat. Hexes change ownership during your opponents turn in both cases. This give your opponent time to capture necessary ports. So a French surrender occurs during the Allies turn and all hexes not occupied by Allies are converted to German control at that time.

I am not quite sure what you mean by the above. using the example of the Italian surrender my understanding of the sequence is as follows:

1. On an Allies Turn, the Allies capture enough Italian production and population cities to Trigger Italian Surrender.

2. On the Axis next turn the Axis still has full control of all Italian hexes and units. Accordingly, the Axis can move German units into Italian controlled hexes by regular movement, rail or transport. If at the end of this Axis turn the Axis have recaptured enough Italian production and population Cities to increase Italian morale back over the surrender threshold than Italy will not surrender.

3. At the start of the next Allies Turn, if the Axis have not recaptured enough Italian Cities, than Italy surrenders and all Italian hexes not occupied by German (or Axis minor) units convert to the control of the conquering Allied nation.

This much I understand. What I don't know is whether or not the Allied player can transport units by sea into the formerly Italian ports it now controls. In previous versions of the game I know I could move units by sea into these ports, but I could not disembark. It was the same as if I had captured the ports that turn by a naval invasion. So I don't know if this is bug that has been fixed or what. So age1000, did you try to transport an Allies unit into a formerly Italian port and, if so, could you disembark?

I'm so lost. The video below is what I see. It's the same for both France and Italy. Unless I'm missing a scenario where Italy can surrender without capturing all its green and brown circles and there is a teetering effect when a moral center is recaptured?

France/Italy full surrender video.
https://youtu.be/mhHpR6t7sgs (correction: Italy is gone, I keep saying France is gone. lol)

For example:
1. (Allies Turn)capture of all green and brown hexes, end turn.
2. (Axis turn)Surrender occurs at beginning of turn, all hexes not occupied change control. Italian units disappear. Axis can then recapture or flee. No change in status of country that surrendered no matter what they recapture. End turn.
3. (Allies turn)Any hex not recaptured can be used by the Allies as they wish, ports, etc..

Edit: I think I figured out what you are saying. What you are describing above I believe is a negotiated surrender.
Negotiated Surrender: The Tripoli Event
https://youtu.be/Dp2gALYtiqU
No you cannot disembark in the port in the same turn you accept.

//once USA enters the war Italy's morale break drops to 56 if Tripoli is Allied
$ModifyCountry
if_Date=1/1/1941
if_Country=3
if_Alliance=Allies
//Tripoli
xyControl=160,14,Allies
lifespan=tillTrigger
actionCountry=7
moraleBreak=56
addReportTo=All
text=With the USA declaration of war on the Axis, and the capture of Tripoli, Italy's government is concerned about their chances of a military victory. Italy's new morale break is 56.
$End
Thanks for being so patient. This was driving me crazy.