A truly terrible game

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

Then only frustration I feel in this game is when I suffer a consequence because of my own stupidity or lack of understanding of a rule or game mechanic. I'm still learning. I've also had the game for years, played UV, and have been playing war games in one form or another since the 1970s. This is still the best game I've ever played. I don't fault the game because I fail to understand something. Instead, I think how much of a learning curve the actual war was for the real players, and thank God I am not playing with real lives.

I think this is a very wise approach to the game. My stream of thought is "ok, this thing doesn't work as I expected. Where am I wrong / haven't understood ? "

I wouldn't say "stupidity" and I wouldn't feel "frustrated": I simply adopt fatalism. "Yeah, it didn't work out. Fair enough. I missed something. I'll do better. Hell, this game is really complex and you never stop learning it!". Once you are in this state of mind, you will no longer get angry at the poor Lieutenant Baker because he doesn't carry the attack as you would have like to or you don't blame the guys who are taking ages to "mount" (is this the word or is it only referred to things like "mounting the horse"? [:D][:D][:D]) the bombers because they eventually lost the instructions. Etcetc.


Also, I have seen billions of people (and opponents........ [&:]) who, albeit experienced, have their own mindset about "what should work and how" and they do refuse whatever is not part of their view.
Generally, these games end up very nasty with the opponent accusing you (in order):
A) to take shortcuts
B) to exploit the game engine
C) to cheat
D) to be a-historical
E) to go against a supposed (?!) "spirit of the game"
F) to do all the above together
And they do ragequit or, all of a sudden, became "busy". I have an opponent who is "busy" since 2/dec/2019 for example... [8|] Not an issue per-se, but the timing of his mini-KB being smashed by Dutch bombers in front of Java at 25/dec/1941 is quite suspicious... It's not the game that doesn't work. It's your CAP setting which is poor. [:)]

For many contested combat results, there are explanations grounded on historical facts and logic. For many game mechanics there are perfectly logical explanations.



Been there so many times... And the funniest part is that, as far as I know/understand of the game mechanics, I am always quite open to give my perspective and "explain" (as much and as good as I can) something that is immediately labelled as cheating and so on.

Due to these stuff, I almost decided to quit the game entirely some time ago.

F.ex. Skipping the Philippines invasion as Japan, from my perspective, is not being a-historical more than avoiding fights with US CVs for the first couple of years (yes, couple) of war. I mean, I am not cheating or "going against the spirit of the game" or whatever. I am just playing better overall.
Same goes for autovictory. "Ah! You play for points!". No. I play well not caring at all of points. If, by 01/01/1943 I am at 5:1 in score, it's not because "I played the 'points-game' ", it's because I have overplayed the opponent in every relevant field of the match.

And so on...



Sorry for the long post, maybe a little bit OT, but I am still so damn pissed by these rants...

[RhinoDad]

Hear Hear!! ITAKLinus

[Rising-Sun]

Guess he doesnt understand the nature of carrier warfare. The weathers is one things can be tricky and the other is radar to see incoming threats. So having alot of fueled aircrafts on the deck, is extremely dangerous situations.

Hard to spot ships at the seas, unless you have radars. Search patterns is realistic, but doesnt mean you gonna pick something up, but the higher the pilot skill in search, make a huge different.

All i can say, read the bloody manual, even twice if you have to. Do some research, before making a comment like this.

[Alpha77]

OP has a point when he means feedback and ergonomy are quite bad in the game, even fans (I play this game at the moment only no other game so one could call me a "fan") need to agree...

1) The buttons etc. are too small one can easily cklick wrong (even if the interface looks nice it needs inprovement)
2) Playing vs. the AI it seems to be sluggish (see post "memory leaks") PBM runs fine and fast tho.
3) The feedback of messages and events are a joke, if we are lucky we get a line saying "raid xyz cancelled by weather" (we need to be very observent of this as it flashes fast) if we are unlucky we get no info at all why a specfic mission is not carried out etc. Also the messages log is from 20 years ago, games like AGEOD have these logs and those can
a) be filtered for message types eg. movement, events, battles etc. and b) also one CAN CLICK on the message and it brings you to the location of event. In AE you get a simple text file with coordinates which you need to search on the map or even a base name which you do not remember and you need to bring base list up filter list before you get to the location where something happened...[:-]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

OP has a point when he means feedback and ergonomy are quite bad in the game, even fans (I play this game at the moment only no other game so one could call me a "fan") need to agree...

1) The buttons etc. are too small one can easily cklick wrong (even if the interface looks nice it needs inprovement)
2) Playing vs. the AI it seems to be sluggish (see post "memory leaks") PBM runs fine and fast tho.
3) The feedback of messages and events are a joke, if we are lucky we get a line saying "raid xyz cancelled by weather" (we need to be very observent of this as it flashes fast) if we are unlucky we get no info at all why a specfic mission is not carried out etc. Also the messages log is from 20 years ago, games like AGEOD have these logs and those can
a) be filtered for message types eg. movement, events, battles etc. and b) also one CAN CLICK on the message and it brings you to the location of event. In AE you get a simple text file with coordinates which you need to search on the map or even a base name which you do not remember and you need to bring base list up filter list before you get to the location where something happened...[:-]

How kind of you to appoint yourself as the representative of everyone who plays AE and present the entire community's position as being in accordance with your subjective conclusions outlined in the above post.

Well you most definitely do not articulate my views correctly. In fact there is nothing in your subjective post with which I agree with and therefore the liberty you have taken of presenting your subjective views as objective fact is quite objectionable.


1. Buttons too small.

I have never ever, repeat ever, missed the button I want to hit and clicked the adjacent button instead. Nor have I ever failed to hit the base icons (airfield, port indicators etc. But then I don't also miss hitting the intended buttons in Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel et al, which buttons are of a similar size to those of AE. I'm certain Bill Gates must consistently spend sleepless nights castigating himself for the failures of his software designers.

Here is a free tip. Don't like the size of the buttons, change your resolution. Oh dear, the OP lauds the original DOS based PACWAR as being a far superior game to AE, a game where you, the player, couldn't change the resolution.



2. Sluggish computer processing.

Again, how prescient of you to know from Mitteleuropa that computer systems 20k kilometerw away exhibit the same sluggishness. Except that has never been a problem for me. Could it be that I understand the limitations of computer hardware and software and therefore avoid operating in circumstances which might, I repeat might, perhaps be sub optimal for running any software. And no, the memory leaks thread doesn't demonstrate a problem with the game; it just displays the usual ignorance and sub optimal actions taken by complainers. So much easier to scapegoat someone, or something else, rather than taking responsibility for one's own mistakes.


3. Feedback is q joke.

Really. Is this the internationally much praised Teutonic humour in operation. That would explain why I, a non Teuton, don't consider it to be joke. Perhaps because I don't have any problems in utilising the in game generated reports. I have no need for Tracker or any other third party software to navigate the ingame data. But then I don't have 30 separate land locations where land battles occurred, nor a further separate 30 locations where air combat occurred but no land combat, nor a further separate 30 sea locations where naval combat occurred.

You see, I know daily where my task forces are located and their travel direction. If I have a TF with the BB Iowa in it, and the TF is approximately 2 steaming days away from its destination of Adak Island, and I come across a combat report involving that TF, I don't for a single moment waste any time wondering if the coordinates listed on the Combat Report might mean the battle took place near Auckland or perhaps Diego Garcia.

Similarly, before I end inputting orders and the computer processes the turn, I know where the land and air battles are going to occur. I know what units I have on the frontlines and where my HQs are located. It isn't difficult, after all the combat is usually multiday affairs, if not multimonths in duration. So many things to organise regularly for combat, things revolving around logistics and appropriate asset allocation, that the visual game on map cues that combat occurred at "this" location are not even necessary for me.

Just because something is handled in a particular manner by different software, doesn't mean it can be transferred to AE or any successor. You have no idea of how many computations, nor the nature of those computations, which the different software handle. Nor can a hex and tile system be compared, the CPU processing demands of the two are quite different.



We all don't share your game deficiencies. Nor are our game experiences shared. So no, I'll file your attempt to speak as a spokesman on my behalf where it appropriately belongs.

Alfred

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

OP has a point when he means feedback and ergonomy are quite bad in the game, even fans (I play this game at the moment only no other game so one could call me a "fan") need to agree...

1) The buttons etc. are too small one can easily cklick wrong (even if the interface looks nice it needs inprovement)
2) Playing vs. the AI it seems to be sluggish (see post "memory leaks") PBM runs fine and fast tho.
3) The feedback of messages and events are a joke, if we are lucky we get a line saying "raid xyz cancelled by weather" (we need to be very observent of this as it flashes fast) if we are unlucky we get no info at all why a specfic mission is not carried out etc. Also the messages log is from 20 years ago, games like AGEOD have these logs and those can
a) be filtered for message types eg. movement, events, battles etc. and b) also one CAN CLICK on the message and it brings you to the location of event. In AE you get a simple text file with coordinates which you need to search on the map or even a base name which you do not remember and you need to bring base list up filter list before you get to the location where something happened...[:-]

How kind of you to appoint yourself as the representative of everyone who plays AE and present the entire community's position as being in accordance with your subjective conclusions outlined in the above post.

Well you most definitely do not articulate my views correctly. In fact there is nothing in your subjective post with which I agree with and therefore the liberty you have taken of presenting your subjective views as objective fact is quite objectionable.


1. Buttons too small.

I have never ever, repeat ever, missed the button I want to hit and clicked the adjacent button instead. Nor have I ever failed to hit the base icons (airfield, port indicators etc. But then I don't also miss hitting the intended buttons in Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel et al, which buttons are of a similar size to those of AE. I'm certain Bill Gates must consistently spend sleepless nights castigating himself for the failures of his software designers.

Here is a free tip. Don't like the size of the buttons, change your resolution. Oh dear, the OP lauds the original DOS based PACWAR as being a far superior game to AE, a game where you, the player, couldn't change the resolution.



2. Sluggish computer processing.

Again, how prescient of you to know from Mitteleuropa that computer systems 20k kilometerw away exhibit the same sluggishness. Except that has never been a problem for me. Could it be that I understand the limitations of computer hardware and software and therefore avoid operating in circumstances which might, I repeat might, perhaps be sub optimal for running any software. And no, the memory leaks thread doesn't demonstrate a problem with the game; it just displays the usual ignorance and sub optimal actions taken by complainers. So much easier to scapegoat someone, or something else, rather than taking responsibility for one's own mistakes.


3. Feedback is q joke.

Really. Is this the internationally much praised Teutonic humour in operation. That would explain why I, a non Teuton, don't consider it to be joke. Perhaps because I don't have any problems in utilising the in game generated reports. I have no need for Tracker or any other third party software to navigate the ingame data. But then I don't have 30 separate land locations where land battles occurred, nor a further separate 30 locations where air combat occurred but no land combat, nor a further separate 30 sea locations where naval combat occurred.

You see, I know daily where my task forces are located and their travel direction. If I have a TF with the BB Iowa in it, and the TF is approximately 2 steaming days away from its destination of Adak Island, and I come across a combat report involving that TF, I don't for a single moment waste any time wondering if the coordinates listed on the Combat Report might mean the battle took place near Auckland or perhaps Diego Garcia.

Similarly, before I end inputting orders and the computer processes the turn, I know where the land and air battles are going to occur. I know what units I have on the frontlines and where my HQs are located. It isn't difficult, after all the combat is usually multiday affairs, if not multimonths in duration. So many things to organise regularly for combat, things revolving around logistics and appropriate asset allocation, that the visual game on map cues that combat occurred at "this" location are not even necessary for me.

Just because something is handled in a particular manner by different software, doesn't mean it can be transferred to AE or any successor. You have no idea of how many computations, nor the nature of those computations, which the different software handle. Nor can a hex and tile system be compared, the CPU processing demands of the two are quite different.



We all don't share your game deficiencies. Nor are our game experiences shared. So no, I'll file your attempt to speak as a spokesman on my behalf where it appropriately belongs.

Alfred

Well said !

I’ll add that a lot of buttons have a keyboard shortcut, for the fingerly challenged, and AE is not a game in which speed is critical : no need to rush the movement of your mouse to hit the button in a fraction of a second.

And regarding feedback, do you know many other games creating text files with the various reports, allowing third party programs to check them and compile their information ? Let alone a program checking the save file to create databases, like Tracker does ? Furthermore, it only takes a small time to start knowing the coordinates of the map, and to know that « heavy volume of radio transmissions detected at 142,97 » is in fact slight east of Wake, and has to be investigated.

If the messages flash too fast, maybe you set them on a too short delay in the preferences. The resolution of the turn is not meant to be made without paying attention to it, reports are only a summary and will never replace actually watching the replay. Especially at the beginning of your AE career, a delay of 2 to 3 seconds might not be out of bounds.

[Alpha77]

@Alfred: Cool post, ok I am wording it different, fans should agree.. not "need to". My other points however I stand by. That does not mean I agree with the other points of OP, no this is certainly not a terrible game [:'(]

Yes, I am probably just too bad in this game compared to most here incl. you (as one of the leading experts).

The "sluggish" problem is also not a hardware (HW) problem, as outlined here also by others: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4951390

@Ambassador: I know where in your example Wake is or other known or major bases. But for example I needed to look up "Sampit" last turn.

Yeah the various reports are nice, but also yes there were a bunch of games I played which also had such .txt reports, eg. TOAW; Steel Panthers, ah also Total War series in some form. But my main point was compared to the AGEOD games (I played To End All Wars and Civil War 1/2) were the messages are clickable (!) AE still loses.

Why can one not name a better system for perhaps future improvements ? I do not see at all why this causes a "stir" with Alfred (plus some strange "teutonic references [:D]) at all..Teutons were quite formidable why thank you.

[Ambassador]

I could understand having a hard time locating Port Heiden or Katiu, but Sampit, really ? It’s a great base with SPS 2/5, will probably be the first base allowing you to bomb Singapore with B-24, if you’re coming through the DEI from SWPac. You can also put B-25 attack bombers and threaten both Miri and Palembang, and even have Lightnings, Mustangs or Thunderbolts on escort. If you can’t identify that base by name, you haven’t played the game enough, or you haven’t paid attention enough most probably.

SP is a tactical game, the TW series can really not be compared to historical games given the abstraction levels, TOAW is very simplistic compared to AE, and ACW even more so. You might as well play Civ2 for that level of detail (and I’m only half joking). The amount of information in the text files in SP or TW are also way lower, and you can’t read the save files. Please do not compare apples and oranges, there is much more computing, details, data, events, etc, in AE than in all those games combined. So, if this is a « better » game system for you, good for you, just don’t imagine you can consider yourself a typical AE player.

[Alpha77]

Agreed mostly...I still do not know where Sampit is, I looked it up 3 days or so ago on my PBM turn but forgot it already again. Need to google [:D] If such an important base I need to keep an eye on it, thanks for the info...


I disagree when you said " ACW even more so" listen these AGEOD games are also published by Matrix so I am not "promoting" an "outsider product" or competition to AE at all here.

There are some things that AE just does not have and which are really cool. Outside from the better feedback system, there is also eg. the NM (=national morale) which is missing totally in AE: You can take as many dead Americans and Brits as you like without much consequence on the home front (morale of population and politicians). In AGEOD system if you lose too many men and big cities, the overall morale of your nation suffers (=NM). This not only leads to your defeat if this morale falls below a certain point but also the "cohesion" (which is a number taken from morale, supply, exp) for units suffers so overall combat readiness.

Also it seems to generate some kind of "rebels" in your nation (like in Germany or Ireland 1918 eg.) meaning the populace may grow more and more upset. Also you have war weariness, the longer the war takes, this also adds to "rebels" levels. These were new and innovative features for me in wargames at all..I just remember that Europa Universalis also had a simmilar concept (bit OT sorry) Edit, also the older SSI game Red Lightning (WW3 baby!) had a morale level for Nato/WP and neutrals!

Edit, I also want to add an observation, YES AE is a very good game unparalled on many levels. But "some"(!)take it as if someone has insulted their daughter or beloved pet. It reminds me on rabid football fans or sometimes also metal fans [:'(] I am metal (among other styles) fan but if you say a certain band I like is rubbish I do not take it personal (anymore) [8D] Also if you say AGEOD system sucks, ok you have not understand it or it is just nor for you - no problem with that.

Edit2: Ah I understand the point of most of course, the OP was not "very nice" in his tone, but who cares? Also he said he paid 20(!!) bucks for the game which is a steal. Coming to a forum where most love the game and then using this language seems a bit trollish, yup[:-]

[Ambassador]

Southern coast of Borneo, slightly west of Bandjermasin. Port Heiden and Katiu are insignificant dot bases, respectively in Alaska (mainland, east of Dutch Harbor) and in the French Polynesia (E/NE of Tahiti).

A national morale mechanic might be appropriate for wars like the ACW or WWI, but not WWII, especially a game focused on only one theater (and not even the primary theater of the war, according to the Allied doctrine). You don’t manage a country, you manage a war theater, there are plenty of things not taken into account (like feeding the Japanese population...). It’s a design choice appropriate for this kind of game, if you want a larger scope and more control on societal factors, try HoI. But for AE, such a mechanism would bring nothing useful (even in the whole WWII, if the German population did not overthrow the Nazi government despite all the RL destruction in German cities and the privations, there’s no point in having a national morale system). I love the EU series, but this is not the same game philosophy (nor design choices) as in WitP - I sure would like to bribe the USSR in declaring war to Japan in mid ‘42, but it would not be appropriate for this game design.

Hence, apples and oranges.

[Alpha77]

Ok lets agree to disagree... but "just for the record" all points I brought up are actually also found in other posts by other forumites (veterans not newbies), Just a recent example, the AAR from Castor, the Allies there took basically Millions of losses and many major ships were smashed, some posters pointed out in the AAR that.. (not only there just taking it as example that I am not the only "asshole from Mitteleuropa" making these arguments)..

.. these losses were actually kind of impossible to accept at home in Britain and the US and support for the war would plummet to nothing, as these were still (kind of, even in wartimes) democracies (yes, in the case of the US a republic which is a different). OTH all Axis countries were dictatorships and police states (plus USSR of course).

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: alimentary

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth.

ORIGINAL: Ambassador
I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

Irrelevant baseball details...

If the batter hits the ball into the air and a fielder catches it before it hits the ground, this is called a "fly ball" or "fly out" and the batter is "out". He loses his turn at bat. He is not allowed to run to a base.

In an "inning", one player after another from the batting team take their place at the batters box where they attempt to hit balls thrown past ("pitched to") them. After three players are "out", the inning ends and the other team takes its turn. A standard game has nine innings. A "fly out" as described above is only one of several ways in which a player can be "out". He could also strike out, be tagged out or forced out.

Google tells me the "mercy rule" is that a team that is ahead by 10 runs or more after seven complete innings [or by 15 or more after five] is deemed the winner.

The mercy rule also doesn't apply in professional baseball. It's for amateur play only.

[katherin3]

ORIGINAL: btd64

That said. Try checkers. Might be more your speed. Oh by the way, I bought WPO and WITP before AE and I joined the forum just after I bought AE. I had been reading the forum for years and with AE I needed some help and support. I asked all the wrong questions and sometimes a brief spanking. You just joined the forum and broke the rules. Your first few posts should of been questions. Not an attack on something a lot of people love. Think about that for a while....GP

I'm thinking more tic-tac-toe ....

I was thinking the same about human noughts and crosses relay game and this gam is played on a three-by-three-square grid