Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory conditions

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: BaggieMania

While i agree that we should respect our fellow gamers and those who use these forums on a regular basis, I also do not want it personally to become a place where we focus on singular words who can have negative meanings in todays world. When we are mostly, at least in my case, using terms for cultures and nationalites in an era of mankind that was the most destructive we have ever seen on this planet, with rascism and genocide almost the norm. t
Therefore i generally see it as part of the roleplaying part. I know that many of use roleplay while in game, I go from liberating the world from dirty commies and decadent democracies (when playing Axis) to destroying the face of fascism and nazism (when playing the allies) to me that is part of putting ourselves in their shoes from a gaming perspective only. That is different from saying things with the intent to put down or marginalize anyone in todays world. To my best knowledge Elvis just love the roleplay and I am quite certain that does not reflect on how he view people in todays world. To me intent and context is everything otherwise we would suddenly have a truckload of words we can never use because some rednecked hillbillies used it to underline their ignorance. (apologies to the low income groups of people living in the Appalachian mountains ! )

This is spot on. While it ElvisJJ has rubbed me wrong at times, I always felt he was playing enrole or roleplaying the vernacular of the era. Now, let me be clear...I don't like the word 'Jap' or 'Nip' bandied about loosely, for my beautiful wife is East Asian, and for the last year here (in the USA) she has constantly gotten abuse. Also, while I am an old school hard core leftist..I can not stand the thought of muzzling free speach..PERIOD.

Alcibades, who ever you are. LISTEN and READ. ElvisJJonesRambo is no racist. He has been a member of many grognard gaming communities for decades. If you would of done some due diligence and looked into it..you would understand that its his style. Edgy yes, but its a role. And btw..you had mentioned on this thread "getting redress" if something wasn't done by the moderators here. What exactly do you mean, hmmm,? Inquiring minds would like to know.

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

...I can not stand the thought of muzzling free speach..PERIOD.

Alcibades, who ever you are. LISTEN and READ. ElvisJJonesRambo is no racist. He has been a member of many grognard gaming communities for decades. If you would of done some due diligence and looked into it..you would understand that its his style. Edgy yes, but its a role. And btw..you had mentioned on this thread "getting redress" if something wasn't done by the moderators here. What exactly do you mean, hmmm,? Inquiring minds would like to know.

I can only judge people by their speech and action; I am not obligated to do an exhaustive research on someone's background before forming my opinion about his character. Also, it's irrelevant whether the poster is a racist or not. Please distinguish between calling someone racist and pointing out racist speech. For the umpteenth time, the point I am trying to get across here is that words such as "Japs" and "Nips" are widely recognized as racist slurs today. This is not based on my own subjective personal opinion, as your friend implies; you can look up any reputable, accessible online source even. Consequently, I wanted to alert the moderators about the issue in the hope that they would properly moderate. If they do nothing about it, then the next step would likely be what I always do in a similar situation: Bring up the issue with someone higher up who can address it.

As for your position on "free speech": Suffice to say we differ dramatically. Even the law on free speech law, I must stress, recognizes many limits on it. You cannot, for instance, yell "fire" on a crowded theater - as Justice Holmes famously noted - because it may lead to public harm in the form of ensuing panic and possible stampede. In actual courts, the right to free speech is often balanced against potential harm. No right, even in this most rights-oriented society, is absolute; they are always balanced against other people's rights. Or do you think I should be permitted to hijack every thread and post "free Tibet!"?

But I don't want to get derailed on free speech law; I did enough of that kind of law aeons ago. Let me ask you this hypothetical: Do you think a poster should be permitted to litter the forum with the "n-" word, as long as he himself is not a racist? If you say "yes," then, well, there is not much more to discuss between us. But if you do say "yes," then I think even the moderators here - who have been extraordinarily permissive regarding racist speech toward Asians - would disagree.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

...I can not stand the thought of muzzling free speach..PERIOD.

Alcibades, who ever you are. LISTEN and READ. ElvisJJonesRambo is no racist. He has been a member of many grognard gaming communities for decades. If you would of done some due diligence and looked into it..you would understand that its his style. Edgy yes, but its a role. And btw..you had mentioned on this thread "getting redress" if something wasn't done by the moderators here. What exactly do you mean, hmmm,? Inquiring minds would like to know.

I can only judge people by their speech and action; I am not obligated to do an exhaustive research on someone's background before forming my opinion about his character. Also, it's irrelevant whether the poster is a racist or not. Please distinguish between calling someone racist and pointing out racist speech. For the umpteenth time, the point I am trying to get across here is that words such as "Japs" and "Nips" are widely recognized as racist slurs today. This is not based on my own subjective personal opinion, as your friend implies; you can look up any reputable, accessible online source even. Consequently, I wanted to alert the moderators about the issue in the hope that they would properly moderate. If they do nothing about it, then the next step would likely be what I always do in a similar situation: Bring up the issue with someone higher up who can address it.

As for your position on "free speech": Suffice to say we differ dramatically. Even the law on free speech law, I must stress, recognizes many limits on it. You cannot, for instance, yell "fire" on a crowded theater - as Justice Holmes famously noted - because it may lead to public harm in the form of ensuing panic and possible stampede. In actual courts, the right to free speech is often balanced against potential harm. No right, even in this most rights-oriented society, is absolute; they are always balanced against other people's rights. Or do you think I should be permitted to hijack every thread and post "free Tibet!"?

But I don't want to get derailed on free speech law; I did enough of that kind of law aeons ago. Let me ask you this hypothetical: Do you think a poster should be permitted to litter the forum with the "n-" word, as long as he himself is not a racist? If you say "yes," then, well, there is not much more to discuss between us. But if you do say "yes," then I think even the moderators here - who have been extraordinarily permissive regarding racist speech toward Asians - would disagree.

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73
(But then, the devs let people post racial slurs such as "Nips" and "Japs" repeatedly on this forum, so I doubt it.)

If we can, I'd kindly ask to not go down this road please? The forums are managed by Matrix and ourselves and sometimes things are missed. Please do let us know, Matrix and ourselves, and we are happy to address any concerns and address any issues that need to be handled in the forums.

Scanning the forums once or twice a day and something might be missed or mistakes can happen, and while I agree that we can avoid certain words I don't ever remember anyone using the word "Nip", at least not in recent memory. If I'm wrong please point us in the direction of this and we would be happy to address it.

I agree on the word Japs and would just kindly ask everyone to please avoid using this going forward.

Thanks,
Hubert

I think we are all in agreement about the issue and at this point we are just beating a dead horse so I really don't see the issue anymore at this point. Elvis has said he would change his ways and has been as polite and conceding as possible. I can tell you that all the guys in here are good guys including the Devs so for you to go after the Devs pisses me off to be honest. They cannot word police everybody and that is not their job nor does that make them racist either. They are just making a game for everyone to enjoy. This is a great community and you are welcome to join us or not. No need to keep beating a dead horse. The issue has been settled and we can all move along now. None of us would tolerate racism and that is not what is happening here. That being said it has been a healthy debate and I am glad you brought it up but let's not get carried away at this point...

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I think we are all in agreement about the issue and at this point we are just beating a dead horse so I really don't see the issue anymore at this point. Elvis has said he would change his ways and has been as polite and conceding as possible. I can tell you that all the guys in here are good guys including the Devs so for you to go after the Devs pisses me off to be honest. They cannot word police everybody and that is not their job nor does that make them racist either. They are just making a game for everyone to enjoy. This is a great community and you are welcome to join us or not. No need to keep beating a dead horse. The issue has been settled and we can all move along now. None of us would tolerate racism and that is not what is happening here. That being said it has been a healthy debate and I am glad you brought it up but let's not get carried away at this point...

First, I only continued to post on the topic in response to others directing their posts at me. If you don't want me to post any more, then ask people top stop defending racist speech. And I did not even respond them to all - including Elvis' clearly baiting posts. So I'd be more than perfectly drop the issue for now - especially, as you say, Elvis has said he won't use racist slurs against Asians.

Second, I cannot agree that it is not the devs' job to moderate their own game forum. This is an absurd claim; I don't think even they'd agree with you either. Also, I am not sure you understand how widespread the use of these racial slurs were on this forum. We are not talking about a slip here, a slip there. Instead, as I've said, there may be over a hundred instances where such slurs appear; there are also multiple threads where "Japs" or "Nips" are even in the very title of threads. There is almost zero chance the devs never noticed them, as one of them claimed. If someone really tried, I wouldn't be surprised if you can find threads where devs responded where such slurs occurred - perhaps even in the very posts to which the devs responded! In this context, a reasonable person will only conclude that they condoned it. Again, do you really think they would not have scrubbed it clean if the racist slurs were the "n-" words strewn about here? But this is a moot point, too, as one of them said they would be more vigilant.

We shall see.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I think we are all in agreement about the issue and at this point we are just beating a dead horse so I really don't see the issue anymore at this point. Elvis has said he would change his ways and has been as polite and conceding as possible. I can tell you that all the guys in here are good guys including the Devs so for you to go after the Devs pisses me off to be honest. They cannot word police everybody and that is not their job nor does that make them racist either. They are just making a game for everyone to enjoy. This is a great community and you are welcome to join us or not. No need to keep beating a dead horse. The issue has been settled and we can all move along now. None of us would tolerate racism and that is not what is happening here.

Ok Tanaka, I'll put the knives away )

What got my back up really was an implied threat to the devs here...and going to get 'redress' elsewhere to 'higher ups'. PMing someone personally about a comment is the way to go in my opinion..before going on public stage with an outrage. Now, that is a form of 'Yelling Fire' in a movie theater.

Well, I got a match to attend to, and one to get prepared for...with you Tanaka

I guess I can humbly try to get this thread back into order. Below is an image of the flag of Tibet, which was designed by the Japanese in the 1930's among others to show the status of possible successor states after the dismantling of China. A rather beautiful design too I must say. )

Free Tibet!

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I think we are all in agreement about the issue and at this point we are just beating a dead horse so I really don't see the issue anymore at this point. Elvis has said he would change his ways and has been as polite and conceding as possible. I can tell you that all the guys in here are good guys including the Devs so for you to go after the Devs pisses me off to be honest. They cannot word police everybody and that is not their job nor does that make them racist either. They are just making a game for everyone to enjoy. This is a great community and you are welcome to join us or not. No need to keep beating a dead horse. The issue has been settled and we can all move along now. None of us would tolerate racism and that is not what is happening here.

Ok Tanaka, I'll put the knives away )

What got my back up really was an implied threat to the devs here...and going to get 'redress' elsewhere to 'higher ups'. PMing someone personally about a comment is the way to go in my opinion..before going on public stage with an outrage. Now, that is a form of 'Yelling Fire' in a movie theater.

Well, I got a match to attend to, and one to get prepared for...with you Tanaka

I guess I can humbly try to get this thread back into order. Below is an image of the flag of Tibet, which was designed by the Japanese in the 1930's among others to show the status of possible successor states after the dismantling of China. A rather beautiful design too I must say. )

Free Tibet!

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Doctor Alcibiades73,

I don't remember using the word "Nip". Would appreciate you simmering down on that. If I have, I'll own it. If you need to report me to the owners of Matric Games, Mark Zuckerberg, the United Nations, go for it. I'm a man. I'll face the music, congressional hearings & the firing squad.

I have used "House of the Rising Sun", "Toro, Toro, Toro", "Tojo", and I write Kamakize quite a bit.

Here are the following words, I know I have used.

Aussie
Brits
Bunta
Canuks
Capitalists
Chinese
Commies
Gerry
G.I. Jane
G.I. Joe
Globalists
Greeks
Habs
Irish
Italians
Ivan
Jerry
Johnny Rebs
Krout
Limey
Poles
Reds
Romanians/Rumanians
Russkis
Scots
Slavs
Socialists
SS
Victor Charlie
Yankees
Yanks
Yodl

Please send me your list of 2021 words that have been banned. Example: In 2001, "Gay" was banned, which was the word formally know as "Happy".

Once again, if you wanna keep pounding your agenda, go ahead and report me. I'll own it. And stop with the "nips", I don't remember using that. Your mouth sounds like Quintin Tarantino made a remake of Gran Torino starring Mark Furman. You're the hypocrite if you set your eyes on anything Hollywood makes.

You got anymore new material for me? This has gotten old.

-Legend

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

I don't remember using the word "Nip". Would appreciate you simmering down on that. If I have, I'll own it.

For instance, you used the term "Nips" on the very title of this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4899259

And as you can see, one of the devs deleted it and changed the word to "Japan" after I alerted him on this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5014702

Google search still clearly shows you had used the term "Nips":

https://www.google.com/search?q=matrix+ ... CAo&uact=5

Now be a man and own up, as you said you would.

[fluidwill]

I've been around the block a few times. In my profesional life I help run an art centre which as you can imagine is a hot bed of political correctness so my antena are finely attuned. I have read nothing on these pages to suggest there's an issue. Context and intent. I love the game and everyone I've met through the game has been a gentleman.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Auditor Alcibiades73,

I have written Japs and Nips in a WW-2 wargame forum. I own it. No denial. I'm straight shooter. I own a Honda and had Acura before too. Also bought a Honda riding mower. The Japanese make a better engine in the 21st Century.

What else you got for me? I've said Remember the Alamo. My family members have fought in the U.S. Civil War, World War I, World War II, Korea conflict, Vietnam, Panama, Desert Storm I, Desert II. I've got cousins that are Cops too.

Report me,
-Legend

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: fluidwill matrix

I've been around the block a few times. In my profesional life I help run an art centre which as you can imagine is a hot bed of political correctness so my antena are finely attuned. I have read nothing on these pages to suggest there's an issue. Context and intent. I love the game and everyone I've met through the game has been a gentleman.

For the umpteenth time, intent is not always the deciding factor regarding whether racist speech is permissible or not. If one continues to use a particular word that is generally used to spread hate, is it not reasonable for that person to change once he is informed of it? And I will ask you, as I have asked others who feel anti-Asian slurs such as "Japs" and "Nips" are okay to utter, as long as there is no deliberate racist animus: Would you feel the same way about the "n-" word? You can't have it both ways.

Now, also since many of you seem to defend racist speech on the principle of free speech, here is another angle to consider: Racist speech kills free speech by driving people away from the arena altogether. OldCrowBalthazor has said that I should have contacted the relevant person in PM and tried to settle it there first. In the abstract, this is sensible advice. But consider it from my perspective. Is it so easy to approach in private someone who so liberally spews anti-Asian slurs and ask him to stop, if you are yourself Asian and have been subject to anti-Asian slurs and even threatened violence in life? Oh, I have in the past, both online and in-person; the generally response is "f--k, off chink!" I am not saying that would have been Elvis' response; but it is not unreasonable to expect that would be his response. Perhaps I should still have made the effort; but you must understand why it is difficult for me to even bother at this age. Likewise, I should have perhaps approached the devs first, as one of the devs said. But again, look at it from my perspective. I see that the devs have let this go on for years. Am I so unreasonable in thinking they would not care what I said?

Perhaps the real lesson of racist speech is this: While you guys keep saying that my demand that people stop using racist speech hampers free discussion, letting it go on chills it just as much - if not more. The status quo had made me so distrustful of the devs that I did not even want to approach them about a moderating problem. What about others? I suspect there are others of Asian descent who were so bothered that they decided to not even post or visit the forum again.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Inspector Alcibiades73,

Dude, get real. Pearl Harbor happened. It was a sneak attack. That racist to say, "sneaky Japanese attack"? The guys that went Kamakazi. The planes with a Sun on it. Did your Mom forbid you from watching Hogan's Heroes because of the Nazi flag?

This is a WW2 simulation type game. What other words are bad? Come on, out with them Professor Grammar.

-Legend

[Alcibiades73]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Inspector Alcibiades73,

Dude, get real. Pearl Harbor happened. It was a sneak attack. That racist to say, "sneaky Japanese attack"? The guys that went Kamakazi. The planes with a Sun on it. Did your Mom forbid you from watching Hogan's Heroes because of the Nazi flag?

This is a WW2 simulation type game. What other words are bad? Come on, out with them Professor Grammar.

-Legend

Are you this dense or are you still trolling? If you said "sneaky Japanese attack," then that would not be a problem, and we would have been spared of this entire tiresome debate. But you said "Nips"! "Japanese" and "Nips" are not equivalent terms - though they may have been at one era. Even one of the devs said both the terms "Japs" and "Nips" are out of bounds; and he changed the title of one of your threads accordingly. Can you just not accept that? Just stop using those two terms - or other clearly anti-Asian slurs. I am sure you know which ones are anti-Asian slurs, and yet you keep trolling by asking me if it is okay to say "GI Joe" or "capitalists" or whatever that is obviously not considered racist speech or even problematic speech.

Now, let me ask you: Do you use the "n-" word as much as you use "Japs" or "Nips" online? Do you even use them at at all? Why not?

To my knowledge, nobody here has defended using the "n-" word when I asked them, regardless of intent. There are only two explanations. If you cannot defend the use of the "n-" word, then either you are a hypocrite or you think discrimination against Asians - as opposed to blacks - is okay.

No more need to be said.

[Alcibiades73]

Why can't this just be the final word?

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

I agree on the word Japs and would just kindly ask everyone to please avoid using this going forward.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Yes, we've already agreed. The J-word is no longer acceptable in 2021. I can live (game) with that. But, I would like to reserve this, if the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor a 2nd time, say December 7th, 2023 for example, the word can have a comeback?

Now they we've got that settled, new subject. How do you feel about the movie Gran Torino and nearly every Quintin Tarantino movie? Better yet, how about Jimmy O. Yang comedy act? Family Guy? Southpark?

Have a sense a humor, I'll be your friend.
-Legend

[rarothl]

These are my suggestions to everyone posting:

1) Read the manual and the strategy guide very carefully.
2) Don't ask questions that are covered in the guides.
3) Play the game.
4) Everyone understands what this thread is talking about.(If YOU do or YOU don't, please let's stop talking about this)
5) TRY TO HAVE FUN!

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73
And we know why, and we know why the moderators did not act in the present case.

Hi Alcibiades73,

I've noticed your references to "the moderators" or "the devs" in a few posts and just wanted to suggest that you can definitely feel free to refer to us by our displayed names, Hubert or Bill, as a first name basis is absolutely fine.

For a quick background, we are just a couple of guys that make games.

I literally stare at code all day, and Bill dedicates his time to the campaign design, user manuals and guides.

Despite our busy schedules, we try our best to make ourselves available to the community and answer questions and concerns as needed, and have been doing so for almost 20 years.

At the moment that is in support of 3 classic packages, as well as 3 current games spread out over 3 portals, each with their own discussion forum areas, e.g. GoG, Steam and here at Matrix.

Just a quick glance at the Matrix Forums alone for the Strategic Command games and we are at over 70,000 posts.

Within that context, I would just repeat from our end, we are not full time moderators, nobody here is as it would be a full time job leaving very little time to get anything else done. Very often, problematic threads are brought to our attention via private messages or direct to Matrix Support.

Yet your mind seems to have already been made up as to who we are as people, what we condone and whatever else you may believe, and this is for us rather disappointing. It is also disappointing to hear presumptions as to why we have or not have done something within the forums.

Please do not claim to know our minds.

Your original point has been made and accepted, I've asked players to stop using the offensive words, I've amended the threads of concern that you raised, I had asked Rambo to amend his threads (which he had done late last week), and I've asked you to point out any other threads or posters to us that you have any concerns with as well.

I've made Bill and myself available to you via PM as needed, and I've even given Matrix a heads up regarding your concerns as well.

At this point, I do think enough has been said now in this thread and in the others, so let us get back to what we all enjoy, gaming [:)]

Thanks,
Hubert