War in the Pacific 2?

[Maallon]

I haven't played CMANO either, but I have watched some videos about it so I roughly know what it is about.
As Alpha77 says it is indeed more an operational type of game and not a strategic board game like WITPAE is.
Also it covers a much broader range of history, I think the earliest possible Scenarios start in the 1950s so you can basically play from the beginning of the cold war to modern day and that on a global scale.
And it has a integrated sandbox mode where you can play around with fictional scenarios as much as you like.
So it is a far more versatile game than WITPAE and targets a much broader audience which is likely its reason for its success.

I actually don't know if it is really far more popular than WITPAE. Luckily with steam, we got some tools at our disposal through which we can analyze, namely the website called steamcharts.
It shows you how many people are currently playing a game and how many played since the release of the game on a timeline.
This doesn't necessarily reflect how many sales a game moved, but it does reflect how popular a game is and how loyal its players are.
Looking at CMANO it has roughly 75 players who play it on average at any given time.
As WITPAE is not on steam I looked up WITE1 for reference and it had slightly lower number for active players with a rough average of 65 players.
At least before the release of WITE2, the number dropped rapidly after that.
So assuming that this ratio also applies for the matrix store and WITE is more popular than WITPAE, it can be indeed safely said that CMANO is more popular than WITPAE.
But given the age of WITPAE it is also very much possible that it moved far more copies over its lifetime than CMANO has as of now and also that WITPAE had far greater number of average players at some point during its life than it has now. So it is very hard to compare the two games given their different age alone, so to conclude I think they are indeed apple and oranges as you said.

On another interesting note: I also looked up War in the West while I was at it and it has a far lower number of active player with an rough average of 10 players.
I would dare to claim that WITPAE has more than 10 players playing it at any given time looking at the activity of this forum alone, so economically speaking a WITP2 would probably be more viable than a WITW2.

[elxaime]

ORIGINAL: Maallon

I haven't played CMANO either, but I have watched some videos about it so I roughly know what it is about.
As Alpha77 says it is indeed more an operational type of game and not a strategic board game like WITPAE is.
Also it covers a much broader range of history, I think the earliest possible Scenarios start in the 1950s so you can basically play from the beginning of the cold war to modern day and that on a global scale.
And it has a integrated sandbox mode where you can play around with fictional scenarios as much as you like.
So it is a far more versatile game than WITPAE and targets a much broader audience which is likely its reason for its success.

I actually don't know if it is really far more popular than WITPAE. Luckily with steam, we got some tools at our disposal through which we can analyze, namely the website called steamcharts.
It shows you how many people are currently playing a game and how many played since the release of the game on a timeline.
This doesn't necessarily reflect how many sales a game moved, but it does reflect how popular a game is and how loyal its players are.
Looking at CMANO it has roughly 75 players who play it on average at any given time.
As WITPAE is not on steam I looked up WITE1 for reference and it had slightly lower number for active players with a rough average of 65 players.
At least before the release of WITE2, the number dropped rapidly after that.
So assuming that this ratio also applies for the matrix store and WITE is more popular than WITPAE, it can be indeed safely said that CMANO is more popular than WITPAE.
But given the age of WITPAE it is also very much possible that it moved far more copies over its lifetime than CMANO has as of now and also that WITPAE had far greater number of average players at some point during its life than it has now. So it is very hard to compare the two games given their different age alone, so to conclude I think they are indeed apple and oranges as you said.

On another interesting note: I also looked up War in the West while I was at it and it has a far lower number of active player with an rough average of 10 players.
I would dare to claim that WITPAE has more than 10 players playing it at any given time looking at the activity of this forum alone, so economically speaking a WITP2 would probably be more viable than a WITW2.

Thanks for these insights. It seems to me that with any game, assuming the tech is already there, the research part can be the most time-consuming. WITP:AE has already done that - they have the names of ships, squadrons, pilots, leaders, dates of arrival, performance aspects of airframes, hulls and weapons, etc. So they wouldn't have to start from scratch, and could work with the CMANO engine, if it is as sandbox as you describe.

[eskuche]

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Thanks for these insights. It seems to me that with any game, assuming the tech is already there, the research part can be the most time-consuming. WITP:AE has already done that - they have the names of ships, squadrons, pilots, leaders, dates of arrival, performance aspects of airframes, hulls and weapons, etc. So they wouldn't have to start from scratch, and could work with the CMANO engine, if it is as sandbox as you describe.

If I remember correctly from a podcast Gary’s databases (excluding AE) were built up over a very long time from previous iterations of these games as well. Im having a hard time imagining parting way with that easily.

Oh, and can confirm RJ bullied me in my very first thread for this game yesterday. [:-]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Thanks for these insights. It seems to me that with any game, assuming the tech is already there, the research part can be the most time-consuming. WITP:AE has already done that - they have the names of ships, squadrons, pilots, leaders, dates of arrival, performance aspects of airframes, hulls and weapons, etc. So they wouldn't have to start from scratch, and could work with the CMANO engine, if it is as sandbox as you describe.

If I remember correctly from a podcast Gary’s databases (excluding AE) were built up over a very long time from previous iterations of these games as well. Im having a hard time imagining parting way with that easily.

Copyright protections.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

Oh, and can confirm RJ bullied me in my very first thread for this game yesterday. [:-]

[&:]

[RangerJoe]

Another one:

ideas for witp2 (probaly cant be done in AE)

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2551664

[elxaime]

I suppose none of this matters unless the WITP:AE creators decide they want to keep things going. If the designer said "never again" that sounds pretty definitive.

Then again, Gene Hackman said he'd never do another Western, and Clint Eastwood got him to agree to be in Unforgiven.

[RangerJoe]

Another one. So many of these are fairly close to when this game actually came out.

Idea for WITP 2: Re-Writing Post-WW1

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2605400

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Another one. So many of these are fairly close to when this game actually came out.

Idea for WITP 2: Re-Writing Post-WW1

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2605400

RJ, your going to get dirty digging that deep [:D]....GP

[RangerJoe]

Another one:

WitP2 Wishlist

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2497499

[RangerJoe]

Again:

C'mon, Matrix... how about a WiTP 2? - 4/13/2011 9:03:21 AM

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2780419

[USSAmerica]

It is a shame that the origin story of WitP:AE has been lost in the almost 12 years since it's release.

Joe Wilkerson and a very large team of very dedicated WitP fans came together in the most unlikely alignment of the stars to create this wonderful game. Many of the team have moved on. A few of them remain around the forums today. THEY WERE NOT PAID. It took waaaaay longer than anyone initially anticipated. What they managed to accomplish with an already 7+ year old game engine (it started with Uncommon Valor's release in 2002) was almost miraculous. Gary and Joel from 2x3 Games were not involved in the work (aside from some possible consulting which I'm not aware of), but they gave their blessing to the AE team and Matrix to go with the project, after some significant non-disclosure was put in place.

AE is an amazing game, the best wargame ever created in my book, but she has very old bones. Any realistic new edition of WitP would require starting from scratch with a brand new game engine, since that along with the UI is where updating would be most needed. That is just not possible for a group of fans to do. It is not possible for professional game programmers to do without the rights to the intellectual property included in the current version. That won't be granted for free to a professional game development company that wants to get paid for making and selling the game. 2 x 3 Games would and should get paid a significant portion of the profits, not leaving enough incentive for the new developers.

This grand old game is the end of the line unless 2 x 3 Games have a significant change of heart. She's a beauty, and I fully expect to be playing her 10+ years from now. That's an insane lifespan for a computer game. She won't be replaced and will slowly sail into the sunset and sink over the horizon. It's a grand and still sad thought. Perhaps that sadness is what sparks some of the bitter comments on every new thread about WitP 2.

[Maallon]

Thank you very much for sharing the origin story, I didn't knew this. They certainly did a great job and must have had some amazing dedication towards the game.

I also wholeheartedly agree with the rest you said.

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

She's a beauty, and I fully expect to be playing her 10+ years from now. That's an insane lifespan for a computer game. She won't be replaced and will slowly sail into the sunset and sink over the horizon. It's a grand and still sad thought. Perhaps that sadness is what sparks some of the bitter comments on every new thread about WitP 2.

Thanks for the game biography. It's fun to dream and wish, but I seriously doubt a game with this unique lineage will ever see a sequel. Considering the above, we're probably fortunate we saw it at all.

[eskuche]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

It is a shame that the origin story of WitP:AE has been lost in the almost 12 years since it's release.

Joe Wilkerson and a very large team of very dedicated WitP fans came together in the most unlikely alignment of the stars to create this wonderful game. Many of the team have moved on. A few of them remain around the forums today. THEY WERE NOT PAID. It took waaaaay longer than anyone initially anticipated. What they managed to accomplish with an already 7+ year old game engine (it started with Uncommon Valor's release in 2002) was almost miraculous. Gary and Joel from 2x3 Games were not involved in the work (aside from some possible consulting which I'm not aware of), but they gave their blessing to the AE team and Matrix to go with the project, after some significant non-disclosure was put in place.

AE is an amazing game, the best wargame ever created in my book, but she has very old bones. Any realistic new edition of WitP would require starting from scratch with a brand new game engine, since that along with the UI is where updating would be most needed. That is just not possible for a group of fans to do. It is not possible for professional game programmers to do without the rights to the intellectual property included in the current version. That won't be granted for free to a professional game development company that wants to get paid for making and selling the game. 2 x 3 Games would and should get paid a significant portion of the profits, not leaving enough incentive for the new developers.

This grand old game is the end of the line unless 2 x 3 Games have a significant change of heart. She's a beauty, and I fully expect to be playing her 10+ years from now. That's an insane lifespan for a computer game. She won't be replaced and will slowly sail into the sunset and sink over the horizon. It's a grand and still sad thought. Perhaps that sadness is what sparks some of the bitter comments on every new thread about WitP 2.

Yeah, if you take a look at what the combat engine entails from WITE1 and onward, I don't think the Pacific could be easily adjusted for the current under-the-hood mechanics whereby every single rifle is (supposedly) modeled. There also is less and less granular control of the air war, whose hands-on approach and single model scale I really appreciate so far here. I would imagine any sort of sequel would thus in fact need to be generated from the ground up and not rise to even the current level of game.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

It is a shame that the origin story of WitP:AE has been lost in the almost 12 years since it's release.

Joe Wilkerson and a very large team of very dedicated WitP fans came together in the most unlikely alignment of the stars to create this wonderful game. Many of the team have moved on. A few of them remain around the forums today. THEY WERE NOT PAID. It took waaaaay longer than anyone initially anticipated. What they managed to accomplish with an already 7+ year old game engine (it started with Uncommon Valor's release in 2002) was almost miraculous. Gary and Joel from 2x3 Games were not involved in the work (aside from some possible consulting which I'm not aware of), but they gave their blessing to the AE team and Matrix to go with the project, after some significant non-disclosure was put in place.

AE is an amazing game, the best wargame ever created in my book, but she has very old bones. Any realistic new edition of WitP would require starting from scratch with a brand new game engine, since that along with the UI is where updating would be most needed. That is just not possible for a group of fans to do. It is not possible for professional game programmers to do without the rights to the intellectual property included in the current version. That won't be granted for free to a professional game development company that wants to get paid for making and selling the game. 2 x 3 Games would and should get paid a significant portion of the profits, not leaving enough incentive for the new developers.

This grand old game is the end of the line unless 2 x 3 Games have a significant change of heart. She's a beauty, and I fully expect to be playing her 10+ years from now. That's an insane lifespan for a computer game. She won't be replaced and will slowly sail into the sunset and sink over the horizon. It's a grand and still sad thought. Perhaps that sadness is what sparks some of the bitter comments on every new thread about WitP 2.

Yeah, if you take a look at what the combat engine entails from WITE1 and onward, I don't think the Pacific could be easily adjusted for the current under-the-hood mechanics whereby every single rifle is (supposedly) modeled. There also is less and less granular control of the air war, whose hands-on approach and single model scale I really appreciate so far here. I would imagine any sort of sequel would thus in fact need to be generated from the ground up and not rise to even the current level of game.

True about the granularity we currently have, but that is one of the things that some players wanted an option to reduce, e.g. by tasking every air unit at a base to attack the same target with a couple of clicks instead of tasking each air unit separately. That one seems easy enough to create a solution for, but I don't know how much it would bork other parts of the code.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

True about the granularity we currently have, but that is one of the things that some players wanted an option to reduce, e.g. by tasking every air unit at a base to attack the same target with a couple of clicks instead of tasking each air unit separately. That one seems easy enough to create a solution for, but I don't know how much it would bork other parts of the code.

Set one air unit to do the task, then set all other of the same model or type to do the same job. Then all are set to attack the same type of target if not the same target.

[eskuche]

The key part is that air activity actually is meaningful and tied 1:1 to the models. Searching/recon is crucial. On the Eastern front in Gary’s next game, recon is free and plentiful, and it’s not exactly like the Soviets are going to be surprising you. Air war is automated generally sans manual ground bombing. But when you’re spending hours taking out 10,000 men and the Soviets have 200+ 100s more divisions on the way… [&:]

From what I’ve read WitP original had huge air fights which were unrepresentative and that the dispersed raid squadrons seems to have fixed that up nicely.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

It is a shame that the origin story of WitP:AE has been lost in the almost 12 years since it's release.

Joe Wilkerson and a very large team of very dedicated WitP fans came together in the most unlikely alignment of the stars to create this wonderful game. Many of the team have moved on. A few of them remain around the forums today. THEY WERE NOT PAID. It took waaaaay longer than anyone initially anticipated. What they managed to accomplish with an already 7+ year old game engine (it started with Uncommon Valor's release in 2002) was almost miraculous. Gary and Joel from 2x3 Games were not involved in the work (aside from some possible consulting which I'm not aware of), but they gave their blessing to the AE team and Matrix to go with the project, after some significant non-disclosure was put in place.

AE is an amazing game, the best wargame ever created in my book, but she has very old bones. Any realistic new edition of WitP would require starting from scratch with a brand new game engine, since that along with the UI is where updating would be most needed. That is just not possible for a group of fans to do. It is not possible for professional game programmers to do without the rights to the intellectual property included in the current version. That won't be granted for free to a professional game development company that wants to get paid for making and selling the game. 2 x 3 Games would and should get paid a significant portion of the profits, not leaving enough incentive for the new developers.

This grand old game is the end of the line unless 2 x 3 Games have a significant change of heart. She's a beauty, and I fully expect to be playing her 10+ years from now. That's an insane lifespan for a computer game. She won't be replaced and will slowly sail into the sunset and sink over the horizon. It's a grand and still sad thought. Perhaps that sadness is what sparks some of the bitter comments on every new thread about WitP 2.

'Nuff said...[&o][&o][&o]

[rustysi]

It's fun to dream and wish, but I seriously doubt a game with this unique lineage will ever see a sequel.

True, and we must remember to be careful what we wish for, we could just get it.

Personally I doubt we will necessarily like it, when compared to what we have...