The Soviet Union has no playability now

[ShaggyHiK]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
The question I would as is the following: Is the battle you showed entirely historically plausible for August 1941? Yes, I'd say it is, though every battle result should not be the same as that. The WITE2 system has always been designed to show the entire breadth of possible results, so picking one battle and showing it is not really useful unless you start seeing that for all battles. Watching many battles over the course of a campaign and seeing how that compares to history (and to the types of results seen in WITE) is much more helpful.

Every change to the game requires a ton of supporting data to help guide it and a ton more to test it, to make sure that the end result both at the micro and macro level is realistic. It's a very complex system designed by people who do know military history and have decades of experience trying to bring the Eastern Front to life in a wargame. We'll keep listening and tweaking as needed, but we're looking at much more than just individual battles in order to do that.

Regards,

- Erik

This is really not an isolated case. German players all too easily obtain the necessary conditions for an overwhelming victory in battle.
In cases of an attack on the move, all heavy weapons of the Soviet troops more than 85mm do not participate in the battle, while the German troops use the overwhelming firepower of their army to suppress any number of elements and inflict huge damage, in cases of a well-prepared attack due to a lot of experience, points training and enormous initiative of the generals does not pose a problem to suppress any number of artillery of the Soviet Union if you add artillery to the headquarters.
Now the Soviet Union is not in a position to attack in the summer of 41, but it shows itself even worse on the defensive in the 41.
There is absolutely no way to hold any position other than urban. A high level of fortifications will not help if the German player uses his sapper units.
In theory, the German player should be depleted as he moves further and further east. Take casualties by losing your offensive capabilities, but if the German player controls the attacks, no attrition occurs. The level of losses in any battles does not exceed a few units of soldiers. The forces used by the Soviet Union are absolutely irrelevant. It can be 30k people and 600 guns, they will all be suppressed before they can even fire if the German player uses forces adequate to the task.

Prior to fixing the night raids, the German offensive could have been thwarted by the defeated railyard. That at least somehow reduced the effectiveness of the German offensive, but moreover could lead to a complete collapse and a halt of the German troops.
After the fix, the German war machine does not suffer losses, it cannot be not only stopped, but even weakened

[DeletedUser44]

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK


There is absolutely no way to hold any position other than urban. A high level of fortifications will not help if the German player uses his sapper units.
In theory, the German player should be depleted as he moves further and further east. Take casualties by losing your offensive capabilities, but if the German player controls the attacks, no attrition occurs. The level of losses in any battles does not exceed a few units of soldiers. The forces used by the Soviet Union are absolutely irrelevant. It can be 30k people and 600 guns, they will all be suppressed before they can even fire if the German player uses forces adequate to the task.


After the fix, the German war machine does not suffer losses, it cannot be not only stopped, but even weakened

Sorry Shaggy, but it is statements like these that make my eyes bleed.

Pioneers?
---------
I get the impression, you have never played Germany. Because if you had, you would know that Germany only has 55 pioneer battalions, to cover the entire Eastern Front. That is barely enough to have 1 pioneer per corps.

Unlike the Soviets, Germany does not get to build any more pioneers. Germany cannot poop out pioneers whenever or wherever.

In order to have enough to deal with significant fortifications means Germany has stripped the other sectors bare.

No Attrition?
-------------
The attrition losses in my logistics report must be imaginary.

No Losses?
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Just on turn 9, current patch, I have Pz Divs at 65%. Avg Inf Div at 75%. And these guys were all 100% 9 turns ago.

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The latest patch has been out, less than a week? How have you played enough to support these outlandish claims?

[ShaggyHiK]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
Pioneers?
---------
I get the impression, you have never played Germany. Because if you had, you would know that Germany only has 55 pioneer battalions, to cover the entire Eastern Front. That is barely enough to have 1 pioneer per corps.

You don't need to have pioneers in every corps, you need to have them where you need them.
Soviet troops are not able to dig in the entire Soviet-German front at least 1 level, 2 and 3 fortifications are a fairly local defense.

The attrition losses in my logistics report must be imaginary.

Speaking of losses, I mean combat losses directly or after combat losses, they are very low in Germany, while the “logistic” losses allegedly from local small battles in Germany are relatively high.

Are you using discord?
The forum is not a very convenient place to share a lot of screenshots from the game.

[ShaggyHiK]

If you start checking the battles fought you will see a general trend as in the screenshot.
Honestly, no matter what patch, the combat system has not undergone a really qualitative change and has not changed fundamentally yet. Specifically, these battles were held on 1.02.06


You can notice that the German troops use most of their ToE in battle effectively, from the Soviet side in battle, although there are 3 regiments of artillery, in fact, they not only do not shoot, they do not participate directly in the battle. The presence in the battle of the AT-Brigade, which was sharpened by the Soviet command as a countermeasure to the tank forces of the Wehrmacht (historically), does not cause any damage to German tanks.

Should the Germans win this battle? I think it's more likely yes than no. Are their losses adequate? No, their losses should be several orders of magnitude higher, and maybe 10 times higher than they suffered in a specific example.

[ShaggyHiK]

If someone thinks that this is an accident than a rule. He can check it himself in his games. Here's another example:




In battle, although there is heavy arming of the Soviet troops, in fact it does not participate in the battle. I think it's time to introduce home rules of the game - no pre-intentional attacks. Only prepared.

[ShaggyHiK]

Here's another example:
Of all the ToE of the Soviet division, and this is not a beaten division, but a fresh one. Full strength under a strong Soviet commander, only 76mm and 45mm cannons participate in the battle

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

..., only 76mm and 45mm cannons participate in the battle

...

not correct actually, the default view for this screen is it shows only the elements that hit something and got at least a disruption, so misses or hit/no damage not shown

tick 'show all' and you'll get a better idea what actually participated - see 37.13 of the manual

[DesertedFox]

Shaggy you lost me here. I know you know these are from beta .06 but as we have moved onto beta .08 shouldn't we be just looking at .08 as

.06 is gone and done?

[IDGBIA]

The base cvs on some of these battles start pretty low, and since its only turn 3 I'd assume those units are not 50 morale and xp, the battle I showed was 50 morale and 49 xp so you'd expect it to perform well and the base cvs were fairly high, These are not just one off battles though these are almost every attack regardless of any terrain advantage or base cv advantage if the soviets dont have enough men to absorb the artillery disruption they will lose and lose badly. One way to see what this kind of thing looks like is to load up the operation typhoon scenario and Deliberate attack every tile with infantry. I'm not saying germany should lose these battles and be totally unable to push but it should not be this easy, and they should not take close to 0 losses and only a minor ammount of damage (damage was around 10-20 elements in most of these battles)

The only battle that soviets held was one which German Artillery support didn't join. some of these soviets are on clear terrain with bad morale yes but many are on supposedly good defensive terrain, over rivers with lv1 forts and they struggle to kill more than 50 germans and then then rout taking huge losses

This is turn 1 of the scenario with 0 pockets and only using the infantry to deliberate the frontline without even touching the tanks or motorized. A majority of casualties are captures from routing units taking huge losses. Germany doesn't need to form pockets when 2 infantry deliberating will often capture a whole division where it stands.


maybe typhoon is a bad example a lot of these soviet divisions are pretty bad but I think it gives you a sort of idea about how terrain doesn't do much with artillery disruption

[Gam3r]

operation typhoon scenario and Deliberate attack every tile with infantry.

I wonder why i can't reach 60% casualties to german units in '45 while losing 0 men...

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

operation typhoon scenario and Deliberate attack every tile with infantry.

I wonder why i can't reach 60% casualties to german units in '45 while losing 0 men...

Good question. Although I am reasonably confident there is a good answer to this, I just don't know what it is.

[IDGBIA]

I'd assume 80k soviets is enough to absorb the disruption. also no artillery support joined that bottom battle, you see the (0) means it didnt participate properly I think. also In what I've tested lv3 forts actually do seem to disruption, you can test this out in stalingrad to berlin fairly easy since theres some axis units on lv2 forts and some on lv3 forts close by so you can attack with similar soviet units and see the difference

I cant tell if you're being sarcastic or not but if you think arty is reasonable and totally fine maybe post a battle that actually shows that instead of "look see when no artillery joins and soviets have a 15-1 advantage they win!!! this proves 41-42 German artillery disruption is very reasonable and terrain matters" I'm not sure what im even complaining about at that point I guess to distill my whole whining I think heavy forest and light forest should provide a bit of cover from artillery and disrupted units should perhaps fire back a tiny bit. but who knows maybe wood splinters are very dangerous like on ships of the line

[DesertedFox]

Not being sarcastic.

It is a good question.

I don't know the answer.

Am reasonably confident there is a good answer.

If there isn't a good answer I am 100% confident the devs will look at it.

[loki100]

Some answers.

In post 70, I'd say all the combat elements collapsed - would help to see a fuller battle report. Once that happens notionally strong (in manpower) units can rout/shatter. You'll see this with German Pzr divisions if they are pushed too hard, too far in 1941.

Second battle, not sure what the point being made is. Its an attack with overwhelming force and I'd suspect the Germans bailed out quickly. Looks perfectly fine to me but I maybe missing what I'm meant to see

but if this means what I think it is claimed:

also no artillery support joined that bottom battle, you see the (0) means it didnt participate properly I thin

then the interpretation is simply wrong. The 0 is the fortification level after the battle, since the hex was lost its set to zero simply due to that so tells you nothing about how artillery affected the fortification in the battle. It most definitely does not say that 'no artillery support joined the battle'.

disrupted units should perhaps fire back a tiny bit

Just doesn't happen, thats the game engine, disrupted elements take no part in the battle after they are disrupted

[Gam3r]

In post 70, I'd say all the combat elements collapsed -

Second battle, not sure what the point being made is. Its an attack with overwhelming force and I'd suspect the Germans bailed out quickly.

Yes. one side is collapsed. And other - bail out quickly.

'45 is basically '41 reversed. but for some reason we dont get similar results.

[IDGBIA]

The (0) im talking about is this one in the report about what support elements joined and while I think disrupted units on the offense taking no part in battle makes sense as their advance stops, on defense it seems silly that a shell lands near them and they duck and cover all the way until there's a German soldier standing behind them to march them off to


if you want to see similar results I suggest you do the same thing with a German unit not on a lv3 fort even a lv2 fort on decent terrain and I think you'll notice the disruption to be much higher and ofc soviet artillery never reaches close to the level of 41 German artillery but in terms of HPE so you wont see the same effect and again you're not showing a case were soviet base cvs are equal too or exceed Germans turning into routs because of how much is disrupted which I think is the issue, if 3 German divisions deliberate attack soviets on clear Then that result shown is actually fairly sensible in my opinion. I'll boot up the editor and make a few examples in a bit to try show what I mean

and ultimately if this is what's needed for soviets to take historical casualties without historical pockets like Kiev and Minsk then Its a reasonable way to do it I suppose and at least axis has some teeth now but maybe a little too sharp in my opinion

[Gam3r]

if you want to see similar results I suggest you do the same thing with a German unit not on a lv3 fort even a lv2 fort on decent terrain and I think you'll notice the disruption to be much higher

OK

Tank Army, deliberate attack on a previously retreated regiments. lvl 0 fort. only 80% destroyed.

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: IDGBIA

I'll boot up the editor and make a few examples in a bit to try show what I mean

and ultimately if this is what's needed for soviets to take historical casualties without historical pockets like Kiev and Minsk then Its a reasonable way to do it I suppose and at least axis has some teeth now but maybe a little too sharp in my opinion

Firstly, the eastern front is extremely hard to get a fair balance in games. A little much either way is usually a foregone conclusion come 42 for the "lucky" side.

Something I have noticed though is the difficulty in reproducing near historical losses for either side and maintaining that balance.

So at the end of Sept 41 German (not axis) losses are at 500,000 and according to Glantz as of November 1st-41 680,000, which he equates to 20% of total German staring forces plus their reinforcements.

I have never seen these types of numbers for the Germans or anywhere close to them in wite2. If I did see them, from my experience it's game over for the Germans.

Conversely, Russian losses to the end of Sept 42 were at 2.8 million and add another 2 million to that come November 1st -41 or thereabouts. There is even some conjecture that the extra 2 million is too low a figure.

Having under beta .06 (at end of August) my losses predicted to the end of Sept would have been 3 million. I was on the ropes at this stage at the end of August with no major pockets after the initial start of Barbarossa. 3 million losses come the end of Sept was going to be a huge feat to overcome and add 2 more million for October and there is no way I was going to survive.

To put this into context in the same game, the total axis losses at the end of August was 215,000, and the chances of that reaching like 500,000 {historically german casualties only, not total axis) in one month, zero. To get to 680,000 German alone losses by November 1st, again impossible.

My thoughts are the historical losses cannot be achieved by either side without unduly favoring the other side. Thus in a sense, the balance of the 41 start GC needs to not try and achieve these numbers but rather achieve realist historical goals for both sides taking into account logistics, combat etc and not try to tweak the engine to achieve historical losses because I just don't think it's possible between two competent opponents.

In summary, should the axis or Russians suffer anything close to their historical losses in 41, it will come at a huge boost for the other side because they can only be realistically achieved in this manner and by one side only in each game.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: IDGBIA

The (0) im talking about is this one in the report about what support elements joined and while I think disrupted units on the offense taking no part in battle makes sense as their advance stops, on defense it seems silly that a shell lands near them and they duck and cover all the way until there's a German soldier standing behind them to march them off to
....

well you are wrong - which is worrying given the wider claims you are making

the (x) value is the cv added, heavily rounded down (/100), artillery elements have very low cv by design so low/100 shows as 0. They take part just they don't do their damage in the same way as shorter range weapon systems

[IDGBIA]

Here's an example, The heavy cannons have the 0 and by looking at the combat report you see they are present but didn't fire implying they attempted to join the battle but did not fire aka did nothing, I've looked around as many battles in this save as I can and any time an artillery unit is listed as (0) it is because it did not fire at all for whatever reason (heavy cannon battalion is the sk18 gun), in any battle where I can see they fired they have a (1) this is even happening with the same unit on the same turn as can be seen with the heavy cannon battalion

You say I'm wrong but offer no evidence, can you show an example of a unit being listed (0) but still firing and contributing and that not being a direct indicator that it didn't do anything

Infact ill load the editor right now and make the weakest artiellery support unit possible, a single gun and run some battles to see as you if its CV is so low it should round down or if it will only display as (0) if it failed to participate