Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
This entire thread concerns, mainly, user defined scenarios and does really apply to the shipping versions. The shipping versions are clearly designed to be historical simulations and should be played as such, with all the restrictions in place to pretty much force a historical approach to the game.

But once the editor is invoked anything allowed by the underlieing software design should be allowed to happen. Any time I hear even remarks such as IJA should get IJA upgrades only. To that, again, I ask why? This is an editted thing we are talking here. In my world IJA and IJN leaders sit in a room and sing Kumbaya to each other in Japanese all day long.... What you say is appropriate for the historical scenarios and any game being played where the intent is adhering to history. But it really does not apply, conceptually, to a fantasy game. Which is what any game created using the editor is.

Not in my mind it doesn't. A few extra months delay in the destruction of key engine manufacturing plants and aircraft factories should mean significantly more Franks in the skies over Japan, period.

Oh... and sufficient supplies of Oil to power the industries making them...

Not in your mind concerning what point? The shipping scenarios? That's fair. I suppose, even in those, if I'm doing well as Japan and get rewarded by having a lot more advanced aircraft in my pool than I did historically, I guess I should be able to use them, even in the "history lesson" scenarios.

All this may be moot, however, if the upgrade paths are like most everything else in this game, hard-coded in the compilable application code....

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
All this may be moot, however, if the upgrade paths are like most everything else in this game, hard-coded in the compilable application code....

They aren't. You can change the upgrade paths in both the scenario editor and the database editor. The database ediotr allows you to change it for all aircraft of the type, the scenario editor allows you to override it in for an individual airgroup. However, none of them allow you to upgrade to a plane of your choosing within the type - you can't choose on the fly - only before the game. That takes alot of flexibility away.

And criticize what is there please, not what you assume to be there or not there. WitP is a remarkable game. My concerns are almost nit-picks. I would have chosen a different architecture, but they have accomplished much to respect within the architecture they chose.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
All this may be moot, however, if the upgrade paths are like most everything else in this game, hard-coded in the compilable application code....

They aren't. You can change the upgrade paths in both the scenario editor and the database editor. The database ediotr allows you to change it for all aircraft of the type, the scenario editor allows you to override it in for an individual airgroup. However, none of them allow you to upgrade to a plane of your choosing within the type - you can't choose on the fly - only before the game. That takes alot of flexibility away.

And criticize what is there please, not what you assume to be there or not there. WitP is a remarkable game. My concerns are almost nit-picks. I would have chosen a different architecture, but they have accomplished much to respect within the architecture they chose.

Ahh, I get it now. You want to change upgrade paths AFTER the game starts? OK. I have yet to even open the game editor or the database editor at all. I may never do that. I thought you guys were complaining of setting upgrades in the editors and then still not being able to upgrade that way in the game....my bad.

Hadn't thought about upgrades AFTER a game starts. Sounds like something that one should conceptually be able to do. You could do that sort of thing in PACWAR by actually editting save game files. Maybe that's the next add-on we could hope for. A Saved Game file editor.....

As for the game itself, it may be the widest gap between fundatmental design quality and end product quality in a software product I've seen in a very long time. Means a LOT of brute force and dedication by the programmers to get that high level of an end product out such and overall poor foundation. IMHO, the game is great IN SPITE of its software architecture, not because of it. And yes, I know I will take a LOT of heat from that kind of comment, but that's my opinion and I'm stikin' to it...

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980



In the vendor supplied game and scenarios....absolutely. By in my own fantasy, created via the editor, why should you even care?

I don't care.... I'm not even commenting on you or your fantasy scenarios.

If you'll take the time to notice, I quoted onzyog and responded to him.

This entire thread concerns, mainly, user defined scenarios and does really apply to the shipping versions. The shipping versions are clearly designed to be historical simulations and should be played as such, with all the restrictions in place to pretty much force a historical approach to the game.

But once the editor is invoked anything allowed by the underlieing software design should be allowed to happen. Any time I hear even remarks such as IJA should get IJA upgrades only. To that, again, I ask why? This is an editted thing we are talking here. In my world IJA and IJN leaders sit in a room and sing Kumbaya to each other in Japanese all day long.... What you say is appropriate for the historical scenarios and any game being played where the intent is adhering to history. But it really does not apply, conceptually, to a fantasy game. Which is what any game created using the editor is.

The thread was opened as a discussion on 2by3 changing the upgrade paths in the patch.

" It does not look like anything was done to the upgrade paths in this patch from the text file. If not does 2by3 plan on implementing any changes to the paths requested by many people on this forum?"

So I say it again for clarity since you appear to thus far be incapable of understanding... I was not responding to you nor your concern over the editor.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Reiryc



I don't care.... I'm not even commenting on you or your fantasy scenarios.

If you'll take the time to notice, I quoted onzyog and responded to him.

This entire thread concerns, mainly, user defined scenarios and does really apply to the shipping versions. The shipping versions are clearly designed to be historical simulations and should be played as such, with all the restrictions in place to pretty much force a historical approach to the game.

But once the editor is invoked anything allowed by the underlieing software design should be allowed to happen. Any time I hear even remarks such as IJA should get IJA upgrades only. To that, again, I ask why? This is an editted thing we are talking here. In my world IJA and IJN leaders sit in a room and sing Kumbaya to each other in Japanese all day long.... What you say is appropriate for the historical scenarios and any game being played where the intent is adhering to history. But it really does not apply, conceptually, to a fantasy game. Which is what any game created using the editor is.

The thread was opened as a discussion on 2by3 changing the upgrade paths in the patch.

" It does not look like anything was done to the upgrade paths in this patch from the text file. If not does 2by3 plan on implementing any changes to the paths requested by many people on this forum?"

So I say it again for clarity since you appear to thus far be incapable of understanding... I was not responding to you nor your concern over the editor.

I have NO concern over the editor at all. Just this overall notion of what one "should" be able to do or not to do, especially in a user created version of the game. He stated he should be able to upgrade his Oscars to those other types. You replied IJA should not be able to use IJN types. I interjected why even that should be so within context of AHistorical games? You chose to blow a gasket for some reason.

I don't really care who you were responding to, one way or another. We interject threads any time we have questions. If you have a problem with that, then that's a personal problem, I can't help you.

[2ndACR]

Actually in PACWAR you could upgrade at will in type: Fighter to Fighter. That is if IIRC. Been alot of years since I played with it. But yes, we want to be able to start a scenario15 game, change our production around, increase research (if we want the a/c sooner), build the best a/c in numbers that might make a difference, assign them to sqdrns at will.

For example: it is 1944 and in Tokyo we have 3 units of 36 Oscars. In our pool we have 300 Franks because we shorted ourselves on Oscars by converting them to Franks. We want to be able to upgrade those crappy Oscars to the better franks which we have plenty of. At htis time we can not do that. Those Oscars are stuck like chuck. They could be experience 80 and they are so much fighter bait IMO.

In BTR that is the kind of decisions we could make. We could cease production of the ME109 at the start and convert every factory to FW190 if we chose to do so. You will pay a price doing it, but you could theoretically equip every single
single engine fighter sqdrn with FW190's. And if you rotated a unit for rest you could again remove the FW190's and give them a lesser aircraft if you had enough. That way you did not have top flight a/c sitting in the rear area. it took time for the a/c to be repaired and ready status from a change, but you could do it.

Do not get me wrong, I love this game. I even like the production model, having to feed it oil and resources etc.
But there is still basically no way to change history with what unit used what. Just because the Japanese could not pull their head out of theie rear, does not mean we as CinC can not pull it out for them.

Also I have no problem with staying IJA and IJN. Both had better a/c available that could have been used in large numbers by equiping their units with them.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Ahh, I get it now. You want to change upgrade paths AFTER the game starts?

Er, that's what this whole discussion has been about, hasn't it?

OK. I have yet to even open the game editor or the database editor at all. I may never do that. I thought you guys were complaining of setting upgrades in the editors and then still not being able to upgrade that way in the game....my bad.

If you thought it was about what's possible BEFORE the game starts, maybe it would be useful to have a look in the editors to see what IS possible. [;)]

As for the game itself, it may be the widest gap between fundatmental design quality and end product quality in a software product I've seen in a very long time. Means a LOT of brute force and dedication by the programmers to get that high level of an end product out such and overall poor foundation. IMHO, the game is great IN SPITE of its software architecture, not because of it. And yes, I know I will take a LOT of heat from that kind of comment, but that's my opinion and I'm stikin' to it...

You seem to bring this up in almost every thread. I think most people appreciate your opinion now. However, what's done is done: there's no way you'll get a major revamp of the software architecture in any WitP patch, and restating your opinion on the game architecture again isn't going to change that.

I'd agree that having save files for non-PBEM games in an uncompressed/unencrypted state may allow the sort of changes being requested in the middle of a game. I think we're more likely to get that than an OOB/RDBMS based system in any future patches.[;)]

[ZOOMIE1980]

I guess the original thread was more about the upgrade paths enforce in the shipping scenarios, not what we can do via edittors. Kinda veered off a bit from that, as I thought some were having problems getting their custom versions to run correctly. And now we see, at least one player, wants to change his upgrade paths as he goes, or basically have no upgrade, just open replacement, even going backwards if they want to, but with restrictions (IJA vs IJN, within type, etc....)

So how does one force historical play in historical scenarios and then open it up entirely otherwise? Seems you pretty much have to have the code support one or the other. I'd op for totally open (restricted only with fighter to fighter, etc...) then force houserules to restrict it lacking a better method. But that's probably not very realistic. Doesn't make it that unplayable the way it is right now, just mildly irritating, if even that. Haven't gotten far enough to really matter yet. New patches keep forcing restarts...

[Mr.Frag]

Nobody cares what you can do in user scenarios because you can do whatever you want. The whole aircraft choice "type" discussion has been around for as long as the game has been being built. If you guys seriously think that not a single member of the team didn't ask for this particular feature a million times over, I'm laughing at you.

2BY3 would not budge on the issue at all. If this is a game killer for you, pack up and move on. It's not going to change, it never was in the plan, it was stated a million times over that it was not in the game nor will it.

As far as why, there are many reasons. None of them have *anything* at all to do with coding a simple pick list. They all have to do with a historical game.

The concept of picking something because it is better completely goes against the concept of historical war games. The goal of a historic game is to make you deal with the crap they had, not replace the crap with great stuff. There is always something better, but you don't get it until after the fact. Thats how wars are fought. You can't sit back and wait until you have the perfect widget and then you go beat the other guy. It doesn't work that way.

The war in the pacific theater was not about who had the best widget, it was about a tiny upstart trying to take on the world and getting stomped on once the sleeping giant woke up. Most of this churn is from people who have not played enough of the game to understand just how depressing it is. I suggest you play the 1945 campaign AS japan for a bit and learn that even the best there is will be completely useless in the numbers there are available. You can't change this. Japan looses.

The fun is in playing the game along the way and being able to say that you took the crap you had and did better or worse then history.

[ZOOMIE1980]

If you thought it was about what's possible BEFORE the game starts, maybe it would be useful to have a look in the editors to see what IS possible. [;)]

Openned up the editor once right after install, took one look, and said....later.... Whole other learning curve. And I think you have to play a whole campaign to have a good idea what you'd even want to edit anyway? By that time, I may be out of gas and worn out, entirely.... Shipping versions are all just fine, by me, having no real problems or hang ups about any....except that the Japanese don't seem to have "Coast Watchers" in hot-seat games...

[2ndACR]

Mr Frag,

I do not doubt for minute that the testers did not ask for what we want. I just hope they read this thread and see the number of BTR vets that want it back or at the least make Lemurs scenario 26 an official version so that we will not have problems finding PBEM players for it. How about passing this thread to them for us.

[Mr.Frag]

I do not doubt for minute that the testers did not ask for what we want. I just hope they read this thread and see the number of BTR vets that want it back or at the least make Lemurs scenario 26 an official version so that we will not have problems finding PBEM players for it. How about passing this thread to them for us.

If Lemurs gets his scenario done and people agree that it is *good* stuff, I have no doubt that it can get sealed and added to the list of official scenarios. 2BY3 has even said that they welcome user designed scenarios in their designer diaries so you can pretty much take that to the bank. [;)]

[ZOOMIE1980]

The concept of picking something because it is better completely goes against the concept of historical war games. The goal of a historic game is to make you deal with the crap they had, not replace the crap with great stuff. There is always something better, but you don't get it until after the fact. Thats how wars are fought. You can't sit back and wait until you have the perfect widget and then you go beat the other guy. It doesn't work that way.

Supplying an editor to end uses runs completely counter to that entire notion in almost every way. The whole purpose of an editor in most peoples minds is giving one side or the other better widgets and more of them to see what happens now. The goal of the pre-canned scenarios may very well be that, but once you add an editor to the package, you've just flushed your entire goal.... And even in those pre-canned versions, you've given players the ability to rather dramitcally alter history by fine-tuning production. You do that to get better widgets, sooner, in more quantity. Why else bother? If I made more and better widgets I should at least be able to use them in a fashion the real world commanders would have.

The war in the pacific theater was not about who had the best widget, it was about a tiny upstart trying to take on the world and getting stomped on once the sleeping giant woke up. Most of this churn is from people who have not played enough of the game to understand just how depressing it is.

Now that's really humorous. Bet they don't want you writing the advertisements...."just how depressing it is".... That's why I play games... to get depressed!

I suggest you play the 1945 campaign AS japan for a bit and learn that even the best there is will be completely useless in the numbers there are available. You can't change this. Japan looses.

And once you supply me with an editor you are, by design, intentional or not, giving me the means to ensure I can create a version of the game where Japan may very well win or play to a stalemate. And even without an editor, you are giving me the means, by being much more intelligent about managing my production to allow me to better equip my units and thereby making it harder for that end to come about....if only I could actually USE that equipment in a way a real world commander with a brain larger than a walnut would have been able to....

The fun is in playing the game along the way and being able to say that you took the crap you had and did better or worse then history.

You mean the fun of playing Scenario #15 as shipped by Matrix/2x3. Which is fun, BTW. But so is JoeNutballGrog's scenario where he gets 5,000 Shindens and 5,000 A7M's in his pool on Dec 7....to him at least....

[Mr.Frag]

You mean the fun of playing Scenario #15 as shipped by Matrix/2x3. Which is fun, BTW. But so is JoeNutballGrog's scenario where he gets 5,000 Shindens and 5,000 A7M's in his pool on Dec 7....to him at least....

No doubt, but what does that have to do with the existing game? No one has ever said that you can't do whatever you want in your own game. You seem to have gone down that path all on your own [:D]

Thats *why* there is an editor ... so you can turn around and make your fantasy version "what if?"

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I do not doubt for minute that the testers did not ask for what we want. I just hope they read this thread and see the number of BTR vets that want it back or at the least make Lemurs scenario 26 an official version so that we will not have problems finding PBEM players for it. How about passing this thread to them for us.

If Lemurs gets his scenario done and people agree that it is *good* stuff, I have no doubt that it can get sealed and added to the list of official scenarios. 2BY3 has even said that they welcome user designed scenarios in their designer diaries so you can pretty much take that to the bank. [;)]

I have played with his first version pre 1.21. It is good stuff. I will try not to beat this dead horse any longer. But it will be hard.

[Mr.Frag]

I have played with his first version pre 1.21. It is good stuff. I will try not to beat this dead horse any longer. But it will be hard.

It has been beaten on by us for a million odd posts already. The same holds for the pilots school concept. Wish list material. May happen when the stars and moon line up just right and ....

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
The concept of picking something because it is better completely goes against the concept of historical war games. The goal of a historic game is to make you deal with the crap they had, not replace the crap with great stuff. There is always something better, but you don't get it until after the fact. Thats how wars are fought. You can't sit back and wait until you have the perfect widget and then you go beat the other guy. It doesn't work that way.

No, it doesn't. Up until 12/7/41, we know the history and the starting point. The situation diverges from history at that point. Battles affect the state of the economy, the pilot pool, etc. I am taking the crap Japan has on 12/7/41, adding what I can produce until the Allies shut down my industry, and fighting with it. Along the way, I should be able to use what I produced within reasonable limits. The problem is simply this: aircraft upgrades lock Japan into a set of choices that were made for reasons which developed after 12/7/41. Those reasons may or may not occur in the game. If they don't, Japan should have more choices. GG and the Betas are good, talented guys - but nothing says they can't be wrong. Imo, they are on this one.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You mean the fun of playing Scenario #15 as shipped by Matrix/2x3. Which is fun, BTW. But so is JoeNutballGrog's scenario where he gets 5,000 Shindens and 5,000 A7M's in his pool on Dec 7....to him at least....

No doubt, but what does that have to do with the existing game? No one has ever said that you can't do whatever you want in your own game. You seem to have gone down that path all on your own [:D]

Thats *why* there is an editor ... so you can turn around and make your fantasy version "what if?"

Yes, agree to a point here. But they DID give you complete control over production on the Jap side. And I can't buy your earlier statment that that capability exists just so the Allies have something to bomb! If that's case, just the existance of factories would be good enough for that end. But 2x3 gaves us that ability to as a part of the Japanese players tool chest to use to "beat historical results". But then they have a situation in the shipping scenario that keeps us from using that smarter production in ways that in the real world the commanders would not have adhered to. The reality is pilots can fly anything with training. If there are 500 good aircraft lying around, collecting rust and I'm flying 300 junkers because some arbitrary rule in the game says I can't use those 500 no matter what, how does that simulate history? Japanese were kind of dumb, but not THAT dumb....

[Oleg Mastruko]

Whoa... excuse me for writing what's most probably stupidest post in this thread but I must ask - what did you guys got so worked about? I tried to get to the core of the problem, but due to the amount of posts I obviously failed, and at least some of the people I respect care about this a great deal, so it must be something important [:D]

So, would someone please recap the issue for me and other late comers?

What's the "meat" of the problem you discuss here:

- Is it the fact there are s*it squadrons in the game, that cannot be upgraded AT ALL (I think I've seen some).

- Is it the fact that we can research and produce Good Aircraft (tm), say Frank, and have it stockpiled in hundereds, and our squadrons are still fyling Bad Aircraft (tm), say Nate or Oscar, and we can't upgrade because we didn't reach some historic date that is hard-coded in the scenario (and/or game)?

- Or is the problem something completely different from above and I missed the point completely?

Thank you. [&o]

Oleg

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

- Is it the fact that we can research and produce Good Aircraft (tm), say Frank, and have it stockpiled in hundereds, and our squadrons are still fyling Bad Aircraft (tm), say Nate or Oscar, and we can't upgrade because we didn't reach some historic date that is hard-coded in the scenario (and/or game)?

I'm a bit of a latecomer to the thread as well, but I thought it was this one. Maybe slightly altered to add that you can't upgrade to anything that wasn't set in the scenario data file, no chance to change the upgrade path after the game starts. Or am I way off base? [:)]