Just to kill the Pilot Pools too low thread

[mogami]

Hi, Using the pool and insisting on using the pool means that Japanese player is living in LaLa land. Pilots do not just appear when they are needed at any level. They are trained to that level and training costs supply and time. Anyone who is telling me that on Dec 6 1941 they know what the training levels will be in a game of WITP is peeing on my shoe and telling me it is raining.

44,000 dead Japanese does not tell me they were trained pilots that flew in combat. If they were killed in training that it is absurd to tell me they count as part of the Japanese training program and that Japan should get 846 trained pilots per month in their pools.
On the contrary they should lose supply equal to 846 aircraft per month and supply for training for 846 pilots per month and have a net gain from all this of 0 pilots in their pool.

Pilot training is just like aircraft production in that we can always go to a place on the map and see what supply it is consuming and what aircraft in what number it is producing. If instead of pilot training on map you want "Pilot Factories" then I think the simple formula would be to decide what training level you wanted and then let them produce the pilots for the pool (but none of this "poof" they appear every month regardless of how the war is going. ) 1 factorie could produce 1 pilot fully trained every 12 months. Since a fully trained pilot is 60 then every month a pilot spends in training he gains 5 points.
Along with "repair halt and expand" we would need "months" Set a factory to 12 and you get 1 pilot per year fully trained. (or 12 per year trained to level 5) I think a year is fair because it actually takes more then a year to train a pilot. And to make you happy in every way each factory needs 1 Training aircraft based in the hex per pilot training. Or per 2 pilots training or for 10 pilots training. You decide. Now all we need to do is figure out how many factories there are in Dec 1941, and how much they cost to expand.

The end result will be the same. I don't care how you work it as long as (and this is the most important thing here) it costs supply and time to produce a pilot of any given training level. The higher you train the longer it takes and the more supply it costs.
LCU require equipment to organize and then they require manpower and then they require training. Ships cost build points and then they need training. So it should be with pilots.
If you want to use a pool that is fine but nothing gets placed into the pool that does not come from a training program that requires both time and supply.

[Brady]

p.9: "During the 1937-45 war , some 18,900 Yokern of all classses were killed in action out of 241,463 entering trainess. (This figure does not include the old Sohren programe priour to its incorperation into the Hei-Class Yokaren, or any of he commissioned Officer programs)


Like I said before If we can model the traing programe corectly and have it use suply that is fine, for me modleing the programe means modleing the planes and the schools/traing formations. This also includes modeling the ecenomy to suport this, the present abstracted modled does not include this, kinda like if we were to model the Midget production programe, you would not simply add it to the present modle without increasing the resources present...it's all abstract only a fraction of the ecenmoy is represented.

[mogami]

Hi, Was every Yokern a pilot? Did every class spend the same amount of time training?
Were all 18,900 killed behind the controls of an aircraft they were flying and were thay all considered to be the highest rating WITP gives for a pilot training? Or were 18,600 of these Yokern gunners and radio men and wing wipers and bomb loaders and fire truck drivers. The fact that there were 241,463 entering the classes and only 18,900 KIA tells me very few of that 241,463 were pilots and that most of the KIA dies throwing rocks at the Marines on Saipan or Iwo Jima long after the last Japanese pilot left those locations.
Does it include the 7+ kamikaze pilots where the training consisted of a few hours and then graduation? The number is so bogus that I can't believe you have posted it now more times then Japan graduated a fully trained pilot in 1944.

[Brady]

p.59:

Yokaren: Abbrevation for Hiko Yoka Renshu Sei.

Hiko Renshu Sei.: Flight Reserve trainee.

p.5:

"In june 1930 the non-cominshioned and enlisted pilots' programe, previously known by the cumbersome name of Hiko Jutsu Renshu Sei (Flying Technique training Programe), was formally renamed. Products of this programe were therafter know as Soh-ju Renshu Sei (Piolet trainee) or Sohren for short. Shortly before this, in 1928, a new avenue of non-cominshioned piolet recutment had been opened that drew directly from the Civilian population. This was the Hiko Yoka Renshu Sei (flight reserve trainie programe) or Yokaren (the prefix Hiko was added in 1936), and the first class under this programe began in 1930.
Throught the 1930's the Sohren and Yokaren were the two main gateways of enlisted airmen recuitment in the IJN. The Sohren programe was open, though competive writen examanation, to any non-cominshioned officer or enlisted seaman already in the Navys ranks. The Yokaren, howeaver drew directly from Civilian boys aged 15-17 who had compleated higher primary school."

Their later came to be different classes of Yokaren, as the programe was expaned to except a wider range of candates.

"The ranks of the Yokaren grew steadly during 1941 and 1942"..."By the end of the pacific war some 20 Kokutai were focused on churning out Yokaren by the thousand."

But the programe was slow to start, and did as is well known suffer in the last year of the war in which traing was conducted in terms of quality, indead in March 45 prety much all traing was stoped.

" Otsu Yokaren Class No. 19 of Dec. 42 still had only 1,500 recuits. The figure then sudenly jumped to 2,951 in the following class No.20 of May 43 Among the Ko Yokaren, by far the largest of the Yokaren programes, anaual class sizes remained in the 250-260 range for most of the China War perioud. Numbers did not excead 1,000 until class No. 10 of Aprial 1942, a year later Class No. 12 counted 3,215, divided into three groups. The figure then exploded to almost 28,000 in class No. 13, divided into two gropus of October and December 43."

[Mr.Frag]

Brady, how many crew in a Betty?

[esteban]

240K pilots definitely seems way too high for the Japanese. Are you sure that all these guys really are pilots, and that this number doesn't include bombardiers, navigators, gunners, radio men and other crew members?

[Brady]

p.9: "During the 1937-45 war , some 18,900 Yokern of all classses were killed in action out of 241,463 entering trainess. (This figure does not include the old Sohren programe priour to its incorperation into the Hei-Class Yokaren, or any of he commissioned Officer programs)

Not all of those that entered as I mentioed before were to become piolets, the figure that we can at present work with is the dead,as this does indicate the figure that actualy was trained at least in part.

.............

Betty 6-8 crew members. When I did the math for my coments above I alowed for multy crew Aircraft, those with two piolets. Crew members other than piolets are Not Yokaren.

[SpitfireIX]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

MOGAMI Your patience is legendary, and BRADY's stubbornness is monumental. It
is truely a shame that the game did not offer a Pilot Training sub-routine for the Japs.
Someplace where Brady could pour his thousands of Experiance Level 10 "piolets"
and wait for them to get better. Then it sould have also included this program's
demand for oil and supply and aircraft and experianced pilot instructors and other
resources in amounts that would crimp other war production. "You CAN have better
trained pilots..., but you don't get late-war A/C and ships" (resources diverted to the
pilot training programs.) Too bad all the way around. Might have saved you this
"never-ending story" of discussion with Brady.

Personally, I'm glad the designers didn't take time to automate this feature. I'd rather see them spending their time increasing realism and utility in the game.

[mogami]

Hi, You have given me reason to pause and consider. If Japan never had a shortage of trained pilots and she turned out 2k per month on avgerage then clearly we have over rated the aircraft. I don't think Japan can lose 19k aircraft if they have trained pilots. (in combat I mean)

Japan built 76,000 aircraft. She expended 7500 as Kamikaze. 20,000 in combat leaves 48500 aircraft. Oh wait that was 20,000 just from the Navy. The aircraft in WITP are way too inflated to produce those results with trained pilots.

Lets be clear that was 241,000 just entering the Navy Pilot program. [X(] (for fewer then 35k aircraft)

[Brady]

Again the figure of 241K is not the one to be looking at, not all that entered the programe became piolets...look at the Dead, those kiled in combat, while not inclusive of all those that were trained it is more represenative of the true figure, the adjusted per moth average I came up with is likely arlound 400-500 per month for the war, real figure is lower for earler in the war and larger for later..again the average is around 400-500 per month. Of those Some went to Planes requiring two piolets, and some were lost do to wounds in combate or as cashualitys in action not involving plane loss.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Brady
Like I said before If we can model the traing programe corectly and have it use suply that is fine, for me modleing the programe means modleing the planes and the schools/traing formations. This also includes modeling the ecenomy to suport this, the present abstracted modled does not include this, kinda like if we were to model the Midget production programe, you would not simply add it to the present modle without increasing the resources present...it's all abstract only a fraction of the ecenmoy is represented.

Anybody but me interested in having an end put to this drivel?

[mogami]

Hi, In order for Japan to lose 20k trained pilots for the IJN she will need to lose 384 per month. Since they are all trained pilots she will need to train 435 per month at least.
IJN aircraft are too durable to lose 435 aircraft per month. (That is the entire IJN lost 2 times per year and replaced with trained pilots) We know Japan lost less then 435 IJN pilots prior to May 1942 So we have to crowd 2200 pilots extra into the remaing months of the war. So from May 1942 to Aug 1945 the Japanese need to lose 500 pilots per month.
The IJN pools need to be raised to 500 pilkots per month and the IJN aircraft need their durabilty rating halved in order to met the historic loss rates. (Since we are not training the pilots ourselves but are getting the historic rates and training levels)

[esteban]

ORIGINAL: Brady

Again the figure of 241K is not the one to be looking at, not all that entered the programe became piolets...look at the Dead, those kiled in combat, while not inclusive of all those that were trained it is more represenative of the true figure, the adjusted per moth average I came up with is likely arlound 400-500 per month for the war, real figure is lower for earler in the war and larger for later..again the average is around 400-500 per month. Of those Some went to Planes requiring two piolets, and some were lost do to wounds in combate or as cashualitys in action not involving plane loss.

Do we have any info on the washout/reassingment/training casualty rate? Perhaps the issue is that 241K guys entered the pilot training program, and maybe 1/5 or 1/10 of them graduated, with the rest being weeded out, reassigned to other duties or were killed in training?

[Brady]

Mogami, remember that a signafagant number were lost two at a time in Bomber and Patrole planes, Okinawa saw over 2K aircraft lost in action, some being 2 Piolet planes. Also consider that some went to Midget and Kaiten operations and were lost their.

esteban:As mentioned before not all that entered the programe compleated the piolet traing and were asigned to other duties. In the Book Japanese Naval Aces and fighter Units in WW2, the back contains a detailed list of the classes and the men who graduated and their fates,while not entirely compleat, since some schols lost heir records, it is represenative certainly of the whole and very sobering to look at, as you read down the list of names and see their fates on the far side of the collom a constant exists for virtualy all of them...KIA...While their are tose who survived the war, it is certainly not the rule but the exception.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Anybody but me interested in having an end put to this drivel?

I'm still hoping to find out what on earth a piolet is, haven't even managed to find one in my copy of WitP, maybe I should demand a refund?

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Anybody but me interested in having an end put to this drivel?

I'm still hoping to find out what on earth a piolet is, haven't even managed to find one in my copy of WitP, maybe I should demand a refund?

I think it is a pink violet. [8D]

[mogami]

Hi, I really like the rational that to be killed in combat is proof you were trained.

[Hard Sarge]

while agree with the idea of killing this post, I still got questions, so I will help it grow

if these guys are so trained, why did they lose so many of them ?

Brady has already pointed out how much better all of there planes were, and if all of them were so trained and in such numbers, how did they die ?

the SAS bug from BTR must of been at work during the real war

HARD_Sarge

[Brady]

"Hi, I really like the rational that to be killed in combat is proof you were trained"

As noted elsewhear several times, depending on when they were in the Training programe their skill levals varried as a result, Earler in the war as Noted above:

"The Leveal of piolet skill remained High throught most of 1943"

Then started to decline, even in 44 The men were still getting 150 Hours of Training before they started Carrier training. While I know the Whole Pool Concept is not somthing you care to consider, the Numbers reflect the degree of Training the men would of had imo fairly well:

Non-ready pilot pool value 1942 = 60
Non ready pilot pool value 1943 = 50
Non ready pilot pool value 1944 = 25-30
Non ready pilot pool value 1945 = 10-20

They were trained to be shure, otherwise they would not of been in the cockpit, to what degree is dependent on when they were trained.

...........................................


"if these guys are so trained, why did they lose so many of them ?"

Atration, later from overwhealming Allied numerical superority, coupled with The Kamakise tactic, and the fact that most mid war Allied fighters had tremendious preformance advantages.

[Hard Sarge]

oh come on

coupled with The Kamakise tactic, and the fact that most mid war Allied fighters had tremendious preformance advantages.

not many of the Kamakises were well trained, most were not even trained to start with, other then taking off, didn't need to waste time learning how to land after all

and make up your mind, was the Frank and George better then anything the Allies had or wern't they

even if they were just as good as, and if the pilots were trained in how to fly them, how did they lose so many of them ?

the hassle with your complaints, is what is Training, I remember as US pilot who just shot down a 109, complaining that the poor guy should not of been in combat, he didn't even know how to trim out his plane yet, let alone, know how to fly and fight, but he was in combat as a trained pilot

HARD_Sarge