How many folks ignore China's Garrison Req?

[mlees]

Hi, There are 27 bases in the Home Islands. So these units do not even provide 2 for each.

Do you know how the AI will use them? If they arrive in game at Tokyo, is it possible that the AI will just leave them there? Or will it try to move them around the Home Islands, or even outside the Home Islands?

Do they arrive assigned to a restricted HQ?

(Crunching numbers in tiny brain) Let's see, 40 divisions at 300 assault points each at 25% effectiveness is, um, 3000 assault points. (Shudders) 40 divisions at 300 assault points at 100% power is 12000 assault points. (Faints)

[Mr.Frag]

40 divisions at 300 assault points at 100% power is 12000 assault points. (Faints)

If Japan has the goods to bring these boys online at 100% power, in all likelihood Japan is still importing Oil and the Allied player is still in Oz ... game is rather likely to be a Japanese victory. [;)]

[Hirohito]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, There are 27 bases in the Home Islands. So these units do not even provide 2 for each.
They are exp 35-40.
Japan had been at war for 10 years and had a large number of former soldiers to call back along with new recruits.
If Japan has supply for these units then the defense of the Home Islands will be vastly improved. If Japan is out of supply then they are just so many more VP.
If the Japanese still have transports and the Allies are not yet in possession of Islands where they can base B-29 then...........[X(]

Hmmm, so a Japanese strategy of doing everything possible to keep a viable fighting force of all arms intact until after these 40 divisions become active, and somehow keeping enough supplies stockpiled to get them up to full strength might be interesting, if you could pull it off.

Interesting.

Hirohito

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

40 divisions at 300 assault points at 100% power is 12000 assault points. (Faints)

If Japan has the goods to bring these boys online at 100% power, in all likelihood Japan is still importing Oil and the Allied player is still in Oz ... game is rather likely to be a Japanese victory. [;)]

I doubt strongly Japan will one day be able to build a division to 100%. Even with all replacements off, all my Japanese reinforcements arrive at 25% starting in Dec 1941.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

If the Japanese still have transports and the Allies are not yet in possession of Islands where they can base B-29 then...

the Japanese wouldn't feel the need to call up these retirees and medically discharged and disrupt their economy to fill out units they obviously don't need.

[:'(]

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: Mogami

If the Japanese still have transports and the Allies are not yet in possession of Islands where they can base B-29 then...

the Japanese wouldn't feel the need to call up these retirees and medically discharged and disrupt their economy to fill out units they obviously don't need.

[:'(]

I would like to have the possibility to disband (or withdraw) ground units the same way as for air units. In 1944 the Japanese army will be a swarm or understrenght units. Concentration will reduce the micro-management.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

I doubt strongly Japan will one day be able to build a division to 100%. Even with all replacements off, all my Japanese reinforcements arrive at 25% starting in Dec 1941.

I just built 2 chinese divisions to 100% in mid Feb 42. I had over 130K in manpower pool and both divisions appeared at 100% strength - cost me 60k in manpower though.

Xargun

[Halsey]

Over 1000 hits on this thread and only 80+ votes? Hmm...

Certainly tells me something...

90+ now!

[Djordje]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Over 1000 hits on this thread and only 80+ votes? Hmm...

Certainly tells me something...

Yes, that only 7% of players play Japan [:'(]

[Mr.Frag]

Yes, that only 7% of players play Japan

Thats not too surprising [:D]

[BlackVoid]

Vote could be improved with one more answer:
- I have a few bases in the red, I garrison the rest properly.

A lot of people seem to be doing this (me too).


There are many more important things to improve in the game, this is not a game breaker. Catapult land movement and bugs are game breakers, fix those first.

[Belphegor]

lots of people not signed in reading the thread?
Guys coming back to view it a second, third and more times to see what has been said? I probably account for 10 hits myself, but only one vote...

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Over 1000 hits on this thread and only 80+ votes? Hmm...

Certainly tells me something...

90+ now!

[mlees]

I did not vote because I have never played as the Japanese side... I am not ready to tackle the production system yet.

[stonefoot]

I tend to agree with the idea of harsh penalties for the Japanese if they do not have the garrison up to standard. But has I am playing a PBEM as the Japanese it is a real pain in the butt to get all the units shifted around to garrison everything like you are supposed to. If something like base switching due to low or no garrison is used,then the OOB for China needs to be reworked and the base units given their infantry squads and several more small garrison units need to be created. I think I have something like 2 divisions and 2 or 3 brigades divided up right now to provide oversized garrisons until I can get around to shipping in some of the NLF/SNLF sized units to take over. The IJN should not have to be provideing units to garrison IJA territory.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Belphegor

lots of people not signed in reading the thread?
Guys coming back to view it a second, third and more times to see what has been said? I probably account for 10 hits myself, but only one vote...
[

Ditto. Especially when the thread wonders from Japanese Needs to garrison China
to the reciept of 40 divisions from heaven, one keeps coming back to see what else
will pop up. Though I would agree with the fellow who complained about the Jap
force pool not matching the garrison requirements. One or the other should have
been juggled a bit in the scenario set up so they matched and the Japanese started
with the requirements "met". I mean the idea behind the requirement is to force
the Japanese to maintain garrisons and tie up troops to reflect the hostile nature
of the Chinese Population----not to drive him crazy busting up units and shuffling
troops in the first 10 turns to repair a broken set-up. Just another example of poor
work on 2by3's part that should have been corrected by now.

[Nikademus]

given the absence of security/police units, i see no need for further penalties. I also think the auto assumption that China is like Soviet Russia in 1943 to be a dubious argument. From what i've read thus far, most Chinese civilians were content to live and let live as long as the war didn't come directly to their doorstep (which is what the Japanese mostly did at least during the time period being discussed) The feeling i'm getting from this thread is that the moment the Japanese turn their back, some chinese partison group with a bunch of explosives are going to sneak up and blow up something.

Then again maybe i'm biased because i'm playing against one of those not so mythical good Allied players who's making my bid to increase the Co-prosperity sphere to include more of my brother Chinese a nightmare of slow plodding frustration and ever decreasing assault value points. [:'(]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

given the absence of security/police units, i see no need for further penalties. I also think the auto assumption that China is like Soviet Russia in 1943 to be a dubious argument. From what i've read thus far, most Chinese civilians were content to live and let live as long as the war didn't come directly to their doorstep (which is what the Japanese mostly did at least during the time period being discussed) The feeling i'm getting from this thread is that the moment the Japanese turn their back, some chinese partison group with a bunch of explosives are going to sneak up and blow up something.

Then again maybe i'm biased because i'm playing against one of those not so mythical good Allied players who's making my bid to increase the Co-prosperity sphere to include more of my brother Chinese a nightmare of slow plodding frustration and ever decreasing assault value points. [:'(]

would you say this is also a result of the increase of chinese prep points to 100 in 1.4 as well???

so do you think any change at all is merited or everything should be left as is???

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


would you say this is also a result of the increase of chinese prep points to 100 in 1.4 as well???

so do you think any change at all is merited or everything should be left as is???

Personally, I dont think any more garrison restrictions need to be placed in China for the reasons i outlined. WitP does not model 2nd line/garrison level troops so IMO its not fair to have a massive troop requirement for either player that requires extensive use of 1st line units just to "garrison" nor have i seen any real evidence that supports the notion that there was a chinese partisan hiding behind every bush waiting to blow up a train depot if there wasn't a full BN of Japanese infantry loitering around. Look at it this way. Unlike China, India in 1942 suffered a long series of serious bouts of civil disobedience that required upwards of 60+ British BN's to help quell. Allegedly this is partially simmed by the absence of key units in the game at that time but all the same, there is no garrison requirement at ALL in India.

The prep point increase makes plenty of sense for units that have are being presented at game's start as having sat there for much time prior to game start and it does help alot. Drongo gave me my toughest fight yet for the city of Yennen and it took me over a month of bloody siege warfare for my 90,000+ Japanese to wrest the city from the Chinese (and thousands of casualties) China has proven to be anything but a push over so far in our game. I'm slowly gaining ground but my forces are paying for it too in blood.

Next time I may just do a Mogami and leave well enough alone unless the Allied player really gives me a reason to go over to the attack in China.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


would you say this is also a result of the increase of chinese prep points to 100 in 1.4 as well???

so do you think any change at all is merited or everything should be left as is???

Personally, I dont think any more garrison restrictions need to be placed in China for the reasons i outlined. WitP does not model 2nd line/garrison level troops so IMO its not fair to have a massive troop requirement for either player that requires extensive use of 1st line units just to "garrison" nor have i seen any real evidence that supports the notion that there was a chinese partisan hiding behind every bush waiting to blow up a train depot if there wasn't a full BN of Japanese infantry loitering around. Look at it this way. Unlike China, India in 1942 suffered a long series of serious bouts of civil disobedience that required upwards of 60+ British BN's to help quell. Allegedly this is partially simmed by the absence of key units in the game at that time but all the same, there is no garrison requirement at ALL in India.

The prep point increase makes plenty of sense for units that have are being presented at game's start as having sat there for much time prior to game start and it does help alot. Drongo gave me my toughest fight yet for the city of Yennen and it took me over a month of bloody siege warfare for my 90,000+ Japanese to wrest the city from the Chinese (and thousands of casualties) China has proven to be anything but a push over so far in our game. I'm slowly gaining ground but my forces are paying for it too in blood.

Next time I may just do a Mogami and leave well enough alone unless the Allied player really gives me a reason to go over to the attack in China.

interesting points. it sounds like you think there should be no garrison requirement at all in china. or maybe that india should have a garrison requirement if china is to have one to be fair? as japan and the british were both occupiers...

[Nikademus]

I've never been warm to it due to the lack of 2nd line troops being represented but in practice, I dont have a problem with the current garrison requirement as is. I'm strongly against any additional garrison requirements however and yes, I hardly think it's fair to saddle the Japanese army with garrison requirements in both Manchuria as well as China while the UK/Allied player is free to move any and all forces out of India, usually into Burma which is the #1 benefactor of hindsight in the game as far as area goes. Fair is fair after all and like i said....organzied revolt *actually* occured in India throughout 1942 as opposed to China.

The Manchuria garrison requirement I do have a concern with because first off.....I've never believed for one instant that the Russians would EVER open up a whole new major front without good cause while fighting for their lives against the German invader. Manchuko isn't that tempting a target and Stalin wasn't that stupid, otherwise the Allies would have gotten him to declare war on Japan much sooner. Didn't happen....Stalin played coy and didn't make a move until he was good and ready.....a point where such a declaration became more than moot...but actually turned into a concern for the US instead!

Japanese troop movements away from Soviet soil do not represent sufficient grounds to start a major ground war IMHO. In more practical game terms, Manchuria was historically the great "tap" for troopage as the war in the Pacific went sour. While the garrison require does go down as the war progresses I'm still leary of the Japanese player actually being able to tap the hundreds of thousands of troops she'll need to to throw into the US fodder machine as the war progresses. Historically the Japanese gutted almost entirely the Kwantung Army to get the required experienced troopage and equipment and systematically replaced the withdrawn soldiers with raw recruits and conscripts. The equipment wasn't replaced and some conscripts reputedly were armed with bamboo spears by 1945!!! No such mechanism is in place in WitP. That little factoid is often lost when August Storm is discussed. I've no doubt the Soviet offensive would have still triumphed in the end but part of the reason why they crushed the Japanese so quickly and decively was because they were not facing a battle hardened army but instead a shadow of a formally powerful army.

The question of the Japanese moving this army "too soon" and unbalancing the game was addressed with PP's. While the PP system doesn't work super great when it comes to the small fry....moving whole divisions does take serious pointage....with the exception of China and that point has been discussed. I'm not opposed to the land border being "closed" to Kwantung so that PP's must be paid first before moving to China.