new house rules

[K62_]

In January '43 the Soviets restored the land link to Leningrad. This is not reflected in the '43 scenario, which gives Germany some chances to take this city. To make things more historical, I propose a house rule making the German player retreat from the rail hex east of the city on the first turn.

[JagdFlanker]

i'v been thinking recently of another way of possibly handling leningrad in all scenarios, should people choose. if Germany takes hex 44,5 (east of lake Ladoga) leningrad gets cut off and it loses it's supply. so to give leningrad a little more time (especially in 1941) may i suggest:

6) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel. German forces MAY NOT air interdict Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6) until a German Korps is adjacent to hex 44,5. German forces may not attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6) with more than 1 Korps once per turn until a German Korps is adjacent to hex 44,5.

this might perhaps increase leningrad's survivability as Germany must go farther inland to get a chance to crack that nut! although it might be possible, i would think germany would not be able to get too far attacking only once per turn with 1 division, even with a Panzer Korps with 8 divisions in it! just a thought!

[czerpak]

LOL
some things never change, do they ?
I enter this forum after around 2 years break and you guys still discuss the rules I had the pleasure to co-work on while they originated ages ago [:)]

Nice thing they are still called after Lorenzo, who had put great work into putting them together.

good gaming all
czerpak

[DavidFaust]

A old game that gets no patchs can only be upgraded by players sharing there ideas and thoughts to make it a better game. The hard thing is picking a list that everone think is needed.

And you are correct, some things will never change.

Anyone have any ideas for a ladder system ?!?!?@?#?>

[czerpak]

Long time ago I made the effort and introduced WiR into The Blitz Classic Games ladder.
While it is excellent gaming club, WiR traffic is very slow, but you may give it a try. Adress is http://www.theblitz.org .
I personally quit playing WiR, but maybe I'll give Possum ver. a try again. It was good version.

[DavidFaust]

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied.

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 2 times per turn. Raise attacks and missions by 1 in the 1st clear turn of 42.

3) A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.

5) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

6) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

7) No changing the chains of command

Optional

1) A corps must use all its plots (2 or 5) to enter an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.

2) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

3) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.

No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish divisions may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian divisions may be sent to the West Front HQ.

This rule was left out to steamline the rules and it has no impact on the game. If a player wishes to remove 1 Germany division and place 3 axis allies divisions in its place, so be it. Extra losses are suffered if done so and when the front shatteres the axis allied divisions are lost for good.

[DavidFaust]

Would like to get players views and thoughts concerning these house rules as I would like them finished. It is hard remembering different rules while playing many games at once. Use these rules as a base and change them to suit your needs.

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied

This is close to Lorenzo's house rule

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 2 times per turn. Raise attacks and missions by 1 in the 1st clear turn of 42.

The goal for adding this rule is to spread out air wings, reduce Germany's airpower in the early years, limmit the airlift training bug, and to give defending cities and korps a easier time. For less EXP'ed German players, leave air missions and attacks at 3. For the most EXP'ed German players, limmit airmissions and attack by 1-41, 2-42, 3-43.

3) A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)

This rule is close to Lorenzo's house rule

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.

This rule is close to Lorenzo's house rule.

5) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

This is close to Lorenzo's house rule.
This rule reflects the limmits of Germany being able to control her allies. It also makes Leningrad a tough nut to crack as the Germanys foud out.

6) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

I would like to leave this rule out as the less rules the better. If the Soviet heavy tank cost 1 more point I would leave it out. I was thinking of other rules but this is the most simple and effective

7) No changing the chains of command

This rule reflects that you have to report to someone!!

Optional

1) A corps must use all its plots (2 or 5) to enter an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.

I have added rules to optional that have had different opinions on them.
After reading alot of commanders thought on armored troops moving through swamps and mountain hexex I was very surprised how pz/tank korps could move through them as they were clear terain. This rule rights the lack of forsight of the desigeners.

2) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

This rule has been added to not catch anyone off guard with this tactic.

3) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.

This was the best version to date to stop HQ's being used in battle

[K62_]

Ideally we should do with no house rules but the game has too many bugs. Save that, the rules should be kept as few and as short as possible.

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied

This is a good formulation. Something should be added to prevent repeatedly special supplying massive amounts of armored divisions to transfer them from on sector of the front to another; if Hitler could have done this Stalingrad wouldn't have happened. Another special supply trick to be prevented is changing the name of the corps to give it SS again.

3) A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)

This extension doesn't make much sense IMO, the initial rule was there to prevent an inf div with 10 squads from cutting off supply. Otherwise infantry divisions in a mixed PzKorps are already penalized when moving.

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.

This should be fine. I'm thinking that it's probably not realistic to go beyond a certain distance for airfield bombing because it would take forever to find an enemy airfield 500 miles from your base?

6) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

This is important to prevent the Germans from building all Tigers in '42. One day I'll play a game with computer managed production on both sides and see how that goes.

3) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.

Ouch all the counting makes my head hurt... You propose that every turn I look at all my frontline HQs and for each of them count the distance to the nearest enemy and then maybe also look inside and count the divisions in it. This would totally distract people's attention from the game and reduce their enjoyment thereof.

[czerpak]

please help my tired, battleweary memory - I can see people are really worried about heavy tanks. I have all the versions mixed up probably, but AFAIR you couldnt replace medium tanks to heavy ? Same with Stugs and Jpz's, Stugs and tanks, fighters and ground attacks etc ?????

I agree with K62 comments about the rules.

[K62_]

Since v3.3 you can put heavy tanks in any tank batallion and the same for SPGs. Some StuG batallions will get upgraded to tanks automatically too. A German player can get PzKorps with 800+ Tigers in the winter of '42...

[czerpak]

ORIGINAL: K62

Since v3.3 you can put heavy tanks in any tank batallion and the same for SPGs. Some StuG batallions will get upgraded to tanks automatically too. A German player can get PzKorps with 800+ Tigers in the winter of '42...

so technically are they the same class or class doesnt matter anymore ?

Is this the same in possum ?

[DavidFaust]

quote:

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied

This is a good formulation. Something should be added to prevent repeatedly special supplying massive amounts of armored divisions to transfer them from on sector of the front to another; if Hitler could have done this Stalingrad wouldn't have happened. Another special supply trick to be prevented is changing the name of the corps to give it

what do you suggets to fix this?

quote:

3) A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)

This extension doesn't make much sense IMO, the initial rule was there to prevent an inf div with 10 squads from cutting off supply. Otherwise infantry divisions in a mixed PzKorps are already penalized when moving.

Pz korps filled soley with infantry divisions have caused some concerns. This is more so in Germanys 41 summer offencive. If Germanys infantry divisions moved as quick as her pz divisions, her pz divisions would not of needed to halt for the infantry divisions to catch up. I have caused many people pain with this and have got alot of complants even thou I followed Lorenzo's house rules by placing 1 mobile division in the pz korps.

I have noticed that the desigeners have made a half arse attempt in fixing some problems in this game with a readiness penality. This is not good enough as it is mostly recovered in the next turn.

quote:

3) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.

Ouch all the counting makes my head hurt... You propose that every turn I look at all my frontline HQs and for each of them count the distance to the nearest enemy and then maybe also look inside and count the divisions in it. This would totally distract people's attention from the game and reduce their enjoyment thereof.

This rule is a pain but it is the best 1 to date for the current problem. Could you suggest a clearer version?

[JagdFlanker]

quote:

2) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

This rule has been added to not catch anyone off guard with this tactic.

sorry - which tactic? can you get some sort of advantage with naval transport?

quote:

3) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.

Ouch all the counting makes my head hurt... You propose that every turn I look at all my frontline HQs and for each of them count the distance to the nearest enemy and then maybe also look inside and count the divisions in it. This would totally distract people's attention from the game and reduce their enjoyment thereof.

no worries for you, mr. K62, as i'm sure you don't use stacked HQ's when you play! there was mentioned in previous posts about an abuse of this by some players, as you can put a huge pile of tank divisions in a HQ in the important parts of your line to make the hex uncapturable, and they are airstrike-resistant! if you don't deliberatly play that way then i wouldn't worry about counting anything while observing the general spirit of the rule.

[JagdFlanker]

x

[m39 white death]

Good rules Dave with a few comments. I believe you to be the most experienced and knowlegeable WIR player out there so you certainly have standing to make these points. I'm in agreement with all except 1, 2, and 10.

With regard to #1, I would allow the Soviet player to use unlimited special supply in the defense of Moscow in '41, and afford that same courtesy to the Germans for the defense of Berlin in '45. These are the two key targets in the game and they should be hard to take. Furthermore, from a historical perspective, both side would have used all remaining resources to defend their capitals. Since OP points are basically supply in the form of reserves of ammunition and equiptment, I just don't see how either side would have allowed stockpiles of this stuff to lay around unused while their capitals were in danger.

With regard to #2, I'm ok with no more than two interdictions per unit per turn, but I would allow the player to do as much air supply, airfield attack, and strategic bombing as he wants. Why restrict these? It is essential to mobilize mass to win in battle, and this rule really hampers that. After all, we are talking about the number of missions an air group could fly in a week, which is the length of the turn. Since interditions have imho too much effect on unit readiness, I'd limit them to 2 or 3 max.

Rule #10 I'd copy my comments in Rule #1. Stacked HQ's should be permissible for the defense of Moscow in '41 and Berlin in '45, but that's it. Both countries would cram all remaining men and equiptment into their capitols to save them. I've used the stacked HQ defense in a number of games and it has only worked about half the time. Both Marc W. and Lorenzo had no problem taking them out or going around them.

I need a vacation...

[DavidFaust]

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 2 times per turn. Raise attacks and missions by 1 in the 1st clear turn of 42.

With regard to #2, I'm ok with no more than two interdictions per unit per turn, but I would allow the player to do as much air supply, airfield attack, and strategic bombing as he wants. Why restrict these?

There is no limit on the number of times a korps can be air supplied, only a limit on how many times from a single HQ.

Strategic bombing limits are in place to stop the bombing of Cities 20 in a single turn.

I can't think of a great reason why to limit Airfield attacks, except that EXP has shown that it is the most enjoyable way with them limited. I will ask you, why do you think they should not be limited?

It is essential to mobilize mass to win in battle, and this rule really hampers that.

I have not found it hard to mass my forces with these restrictions playing a game against K62. On my last turn the Soviets showed me that they have no problems massing there airforce either.

After all, we are talking about the number of missions an air group could fly in a week, which is the length of the turn.

Im not sure what you mean here. I have not EXP'ed any problems with using my airforce with this rule. I have used my airforce to the best of its capability with these restrictions. The only thing is that it is done differently but my results are close to the same.

Rule #10 I'd copy my comments in Rule #1. Stacked HQ's should be permissible for the defense of Moscow in '41 and Berlin in '45, but that's it. Both countries would cram all remaining men and equiptment into their capitols to save them. I've used the stacked HQ defense in a number of games and it has only worked about half the time. Both Marc W. and Lorenzo had no problem taking them out or going around them.

Our goals are the same but our method to reach our targets are both different. Yours is HQ's, mine is limiting air power.
My reasons against your HQ stacking ideas are....
-You know this tactic is not a good idea as you have limited it. If it is ok to use it in the defence of Moscow, why not Stalingrad?
-You stated that it has been defeated about 50% of the time. Why not try other means to reach you goal?
-I regard HQ's job in this game as a admin role. I would like to find other means to give Russia a fighting chance without resorting to this tactic. Air restrictions will give the game more play balance.

I have played you a fair few times and your defences were good. I believe that a very EXP'ed Germany player can capture Moscow and Leningrad no matter how good the Russian player is. I have not been proven wrong of this fact. I have been working on these rules to add flavor to this game and to extend its life for me and other EXP'ed players. Why keep playing the game when you have mastered it?

My game against K62 is using most of these rules and I have never had such a tough time in playing my turns. The rules have alot to do with it but K62 tactical skills are the best I have ever seen.

With regard to #1, I would allow the Soviet player to use unlimited special supply in the defense of Moscow in '41, and afford that same courtesy to the Germans for the defense of Berlin in '45. These are the two key targets in the game and they should be hard to take. Furthermore, from a historical perspective, both side would have used all remaining resources to defend their capitals. Since OP points are basically supply in the form of reserves of ammunition and equiptment, I just don't see how either side would have allowed stockpiles of this stuff to lay around unused while their capitals were in danger.

I have never had to use this tactic, because if i needed supplies in a certain area I bulk hq's to get the job done. This takes ALOT more planning in doing so but this is 1/2 of the challenge. I would suggest you do the same as I regard this planning to be some of the toughest choices the Soviet player has to make and is this not why we play the game?

Good rules Dave with a few comments. I believe you to be the most experienced and knowlegeable WIR player out there so you certainly have standing to make these points. I'm in agreement with all except 1, 2, and 10.

If you regard me as the most experienced and knowlegeable WIR player why would you not play test these rules and see how they pan out? I can assure you that I will have a very tough time getting near Moscow, let alone capturing it with these rules.

Best regards

David

[DavidFaust]

found it