CV Airstrike Coordination

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Mr.Frag
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Mr.Frag »

I said CAP is overpowering because of the model...it allows the entire CAP a go at each successive strike!! Read what I'm saying, not what are conditioned to think I'm saying!

Once again we come back to you being Mr. Tatical and refusing to allow the possibility of abstraction that perhaps cap happens to get refueled and rearmed between the strikes.

But after all, we have no historical president for cap getting refueled and rearmed right? Like umm ... Midway? [8|]

Read *between* the lines, thats always been your problem, you *refuse* to accept that there is any abstraction in the game at all. This is *not* a tactical game yet you continue to impose tactical rules on it.

You want to launch your aircraft in 30 minute intervals so the first raid draws off the cap. Ain't going to happen. This is not a tactical CV sim with 30 second turns. As soon as you get around to accepting that this is a strategic / operational level game with 24 hours between user control, you'll maybe start looking for stuff that actually would improve the game yet *fit* within the concept instead of going off on these tactical tangens all the time that serve no purpose at all.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Absolutely nothing resembling sour grapes here Ray. Pointing out a major contributor to accelerated losses, game pace and potential for refinement.

Your complaint (the moving target of the day) is that CAP is overpowering when you cluster enough CV's. *DUH!* of course it is! Thats why they do it.

...

Whenever one side grossly overpowers the other side, the results will show it. Somehow you always feel that the game should magically say NO! you cannot play the game the way you want and use grossly overpowering forces.

Mr. Frag, here I must respectfully [&o] submit a "yea, but ..."[:'(]

The point here is that historically, CAP did not overpower the opposition when CV's were clustered prior the Caroline raids and especially Philippine Sea. The reasons (stated above by both me and Irrelevant) were technical (communications, IFF), doctrinal (CIC, positive figther control), physical (no CIC installed as yet), and training (radio descipline, fighter control expertize).

As a result, I would expect the game to do something to prevent absolutely ahistorical results in the early and mid- war periods. I would respectfully submit that the famous (or infamous) Zero rule is an attempt to address a similar issue (poor allied fighter doctrine due to lack of "energy" ACM concept, IMHO) [:D]
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
I said CAP is overpowering because of the model...it allows the entire CAP a go at each successive strike!! Read what I'm saying, not what are conditioned to think I'm saying!

Once again we come back to you being Mr. Tatical and refusing to allow the possibility of abstraction that perhaps cap happens to get refueled and rearmed between the strikes.

But after all, we have no historical president for cap getting refueled and rearmed right? Like umm ... Midway? [8|]

Read *between* the lines, thats always been your problem, you *refuse* to accept that there is any abstraction in the game at all. This is *not* a tactical game yet you continue to impose tactical rules on it.

You want to launch your aircraft in 30 minute intervals so the first raid draws off the cap. Ain't going to happen. This is not a tactical CV sim with 30 second turns. As soon as you get around to accepting that this is a strategic / operational level game with 24 hours between user control, you'll maybe start looking for stuff that actually would improve the game yet *fit* within the concept instead of going off on these tactical tangens all the time that serve no purpose at all.

All I've been saying, along with a host of others is that an "abstract" correction to the model is in order. If I don't give details, you crap on about lack of examples...if I do give details you bitch that I'm thinking to "tactically" and have lost my ability for abstract thought! I guess those commies are after your precious bodily fluids or something...you are losing it in an effort to make me sound like an idiot or something. I do that well enough on my own, thank you, don't need your help.[:D]
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freeboy
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by freeboy »

Ron and Frag, take a chill guys.. after all even when we dissagree this is a hobby...
Massed fighters are affective... if you send your fighters as escorts they are less affective... you, Ron, and others see Jap fighters as too affective in the early war years.. point made.. I am sure the folks looking, from 2x3 and MAtrix, at these are aware by now there are multiple views, and taking personal shots at one another is poor play imo..[:-]
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Mr.Frag
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Mr.Frag »

All I've been saying, along with a host of others is that an "abstract" correction to the model is in order.

And what pray tell is that correction? You always complain yet never offer up any solution. Thats why we butt heads.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Halsey »

1. CV TF airstrike coordination should apply to both sides.
2. Degradation of CAP with each subsequent strike against the target hex.
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Mr.Frag
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Mr.Frag »

1. CV TF airstrike coordination should apply to both sides.

It does ... Japan gets a lesser effect at the start of the game based on historic action of training and using cv's together.

2. Degradation of CAP with each subsequent strike against the target hex.

It does ... equally ... fatigued pilots are less and less effective, losses suffered/damaged do not participate.
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
All I've been saying, along with a host of others is that an "abstract" correction to the model is in order.

And what pray tell is that correction? You always complain yet never offer up any solution. Thats why we butt heads.

Well, as many have suggested, ditch the coordination bonus for Japan. Unwarranted as many have posted data regarding details of Japanese attacks vs US TFs etc and no superior ability was revealed. Because there is no CAP uncoordination penalty, perhaps ditch the concept of uncoordinated attacks altogether, at least as they are modelled now with CAP.

How? Have CAP come before the target assignment phase , or whatever you call it, to negate the need for each strike (I'm now referring to the fact that air attacks split and attack seperate LCUs and TFs, suffering the same gauntlet as uncoordinated do, even though they may have been coordinated) to run the gauntlet of the homogenous CAP in the hex. This is already being done this way when aircraft select ships as targets...these packets don't have to make it through the CAP at this point, why should bombers attacking multiple LCUs or multiple bombers have too?

Perhaps to differentiate between coordinated and uncoordinated attacks without the CAP penalty, have the accuracy of the bombers improve somewhat to simulate anvil attacks by torpedo bombers or simultaneous attacks by torpedo and dive bombers. Ships only as I can'rt see this improving results vs troops (different kind of target).

And the number of solutions I've bounced around and advocated rival Pi.[:D]
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Mr.Frag
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Mr.Frag »

Well, as many have suggested, ditch the coordination bonus for Japan. Unwarranted as many have posted data regarding details of Japanese attacks vs US TFs etc and no superior ability was revealed. Because there is no CAP uncoordination penalty, perhaps ditch the concept of uncoordinated attacks altogether, at least as they are modelled now with CAP.

Not going to happen ... as *some* have suggested is not the same as *many* have suggested. Just because you don't like something does not make it wrong. As the player has the ability to completely negate this penalty, there really is no valid excuse here. The whole *point* of the rule is to let cap be more effective. You are trying to negate that once again.

How? Have CAP come before the target assignment phase , or whatever you call it, to negate the need for each strike (I'm now referring to the fact that air attacks split and attack seperate LCUs and TFs, suffering the same gauntlet as uncoordinated do, even though they may have been coordinated) to run the gauntlet of the homogenous CAP in the hex. This is already being done this way when aircraft select ships as targets...these packets don't have to make it through the CAP at this point, why should bombers attacking multiple LCUs or multiple bombers have too?

What you are basically talking about is making cap target specific instead of hex specific. That would stretch the cap thinner resulting in more leakers assuming that there is not enough cap to go around. Assuming there *is* enough cap, it results in absolutely no difference at all. As to the rest of what you said, that is eactly how the game works already. It also adds a pile of micromanagement and room for lots of mistakes to the player which does nothing but frustrate people.

This once again goes right back to the fundimental aspect of warfare. He who has "more" wins. He who has "way more" mops up. You want to see the game 'handicapped' where he who has "way more" gets the same as he who has "more" resulting in no differences.

This is akin to simply saying that you can only set 20% cap on your CV's no matter what. You want a hack put in that says someone can not apply a different doctrine and run 80% cap. This is simply taking the choice away from the player. This is not a history book, it is a game. People are free to try different things if they want to.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
All I've been saying, along with a host of others is that an "abstract" correction to the model is in order.

And what pray tell is that correction? You always complain yet never offer up any solution. Thats why we butt heads.

Addressing the massed CAP (this was already suggested by someone earlier, however this is a good time to repeat it:

The total CAP in a hex should be treated in a way similar to the AA total contributed by the ships in a TF.

When the total number of fighters in a hex exceeds some number (suggest 32), the total should be adjusted to account for diminishing returns due to all the factors above. A simplistic algorithm would be to adjust the defending fighters number:

Effective = sum (ftr(i)*k(i))

where
k(i) = 1 for i=1,32
k(i)=.5 for i=33,64
k(i)=.25 for i =65-96
etc.

so you get full credit for hte first 32 CAP fighters, the next 32 are only half as effective, the following 32 are only a quarter as effective, etc.

Phase this out for the allies by allowing them full credit for the first 64 in 1943 amd 96 in 1944. If you think that 32 is too many or too few, use some other number but use SOME diminishing return method.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by freeboy »

This makes sence only if youy also apply the same "logic" to the attacking planes.. full strungth for the first wave etc..
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Ron Saueracker
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Well, as many have suggested, ditch the coordination bonus for Japan. Unwarranted as many have posted data regarding details of Japanese attacks vs US TFs etc and no superior ability was revealed. Because there is no CAP uncoordination penalty, perhaps ditch the concept of uncoordinated attacks altogether, at least as they are modelled now with CAP.

Not going to happen ... as *some* have suggested is not the same as *many* have suggested. Just because you don't like something does not make it wrong. As the player has the ability to completely negate this penalty, there really is no valid excuse here. The whole *point* of the rule is to let cap be more effective. You are trying to negate that once again.

How? Have CAP come before the target assignment phase , or whatever you call it, to negate the need for each strike (I'm now referring to the fact that air attacks split and attack seperate LCUs and TFs, suffering the same gauntlet as uncoordinated do, even though they may have been coordinated) to run the gauntlet of the homogenous CAP in the hex. This is already being done this way when aircraft select ships as targets...these packets don't have to make it through the CAP at this point, why should bombers attacking multiple LCUs or multiple bombers have too?

What you are basically talking about is making cap target specific instead of hex specific. That would stretch the cap thinner resulting in more leakers assuming that there is not enough cap to go around. Assuming there *is* enough cap, it results in absolutely no difference at all. As to the rest of what you said, that is eactly how the game works already. It also adds a pile of micromanagement and room for lots of mistakes to the player which does nothing but frustrate people.

This once again goes right back to the fundimental aspect of warfare. He who has "more" wins. He who has "way more" mops up. You want to see the game 'handicapped' where he who has "way more" gets the same as he who has "more" resulting in no differences.

This is akin to simply saying that you can only set 20% cap on your CV's no matter what. You want a hack put in that says someone can not apply a different doctrine and run 80% cap. This is simply taking the choice away from the player. This is not a history book, it is a game. People are free to try different things if they want to.

You know...I about to give up. I've been pummelled by a wave field of ignorance and stubborn myopia. You are simply ramming your lack of understanding of what I'm trying to make clear to you. YES I'm trying to make CAP target specific and not hex...CAP protects specific targets and can't possibly be everywhere within a hex at any time as is the case now. No it does not make it more difficult for players and more prone to error. The fact the I'm suggesting CAP come before the strikes split into packages is simply a mechanics/phase placement issue and has nada to do with player input. It simply addresses the problem which exists because of an earlier design decision. Testing has shown that this is obviously off and gives CAP to much credit. And NO, I'm not dictating that a player can't do this or can't do that, I'm saying that the assets he is assigning are not CAPABLE of what we can do presently.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: freeboy

This makes sence only if youy also apply the same "logic" to the attacking planes.. full strungth for the first wave etc..

Freeboy, I disagree (respectfully of course[:)]).

This is solely to address the issue that neither the Japanese nor the USN were able to coordingate large numbers of DEFENSIVE fighters. The coordination of offensive strikes is at least supposedly addressed by the coordination rule.

It is not that I am disagreeing with your concept, only the implementation detail. My point is that the defensive coordination problem has a different physical cause than the offensive coordination issue. It should be treated separately.

I also feel that the CAP issue is a CAP issue, not just a CV CAP issue. In the real world, I doubt that the Pearl Harbor defenses would be able to do any better against a massed attack than Saratoga in late 42 and certainly not as well as Essex in 44. The technological and doctrinal issues were the same for ashore and afloat, and there was less pressure to solve the shoreside issues (for the US; the Brits solved these problems quite well with the Chain Home SYSTEM (comms, IFF, "CIC", the whole thing) in 1940).
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Mr.Frag
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Mr.Frag »

pompack, think it through, that is exactly like saying fly 20% cap because the rest will not offer any benefit. That means in turn that the 80% escort now blows right through the cap every time no matter what.

We already have a sliding scale of effectiveness and it is controlled by the player. The number is directly related to how many fighters happen to be available. It is a tradeoff between offence and defence.

Why should there be diminishing returns on cap when there are no diminishing returns on strike?

The first thing you learn with rules is that anytime a one sided rule exists, it will break. Putting a factor on cap without putting an equal and opposite control on strike size will simply reduce all air combat to he who flies first wins always.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Ron Saueracker »

The first thing you learn with rules is that anytime a one sided rule exists, it will break. Putting a factor on cap without putting an equal and opposite control on strike size will simply reduce all air combat to he who flies first wins always.

Really??? Then CAP vs strikes are broken! CAP vs coordinated strikes targetting multiple LCUs and TFs...the FULL CAP gets to attack each in succession allowing them to be butchered piecemiel. The strike package split for these should come AFTER the CAP interception due to the simple and abstract nature of the model. I don't think the devs intended for this to be the case given that if a strike is launched vs a single LCU or TF and the strike is coordinated, the CAP only gets one crack, not multiple. See the problem?
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

pompack, think it through, that is exactly like saying fly 20% cap because the rest will not offer any benefit. That means in turn that the 80% escort now blows right through the cap every time no matter what.

We already have a sliding scale of effectiveness and it is controlled by the player. The number is directly related to how many fighters happen to be available. It is a tradeoff between offence and defence.

Why should there be diminishing returns on cap when there are no diminishing returns on strike?

The first thing you learn with rules is that anytime a one sided rule exists, it will break. Putting a factor on cap without putting an equal and opposite control on strike size will simply reduce all air combat to he who flies first wins always.

yep, and I think that that was reality up until 44 against the USN. A coordinated massed strike WOULD blow through any real CAP in 1942 (and maybe 43, but there were few opportunities in 43 to find out).

Knowledge that this was the case was what drove the US doctrine of ONE CV per task group (assuming they had enought escorts) and NEVER more than two CVs even if the screen had to be thinned out. The doctrine was to assume that you could stop small attacks, but not let a BIG attack get more than one carrier.

As I said, I would phase out the deminishing returns for the USN in 44 because they DID learn how to effectively mass CAP. Only then was the practice of single carrier task groups changed.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Mr.Frag »

the FULL CAP gets to attack each in succession allowing them to be butchered piecemiel.

No it does not. You keep saying that but it is not true. Whatever remains is involved at fatigued levels.
The strike package split for these should come AFTER the CAP interception due to the simple and abstract nature of the model.

It already does. Ever seen cap come after an aircraft that has already released their bombs? All part of the abstraction.


You continue to debate the purpose of the rule no matter how many times I repeat it. It is a *attacker* penalty, not a defender one. It is intended to represent groups that got lost on the way showing up later and getting pounced on by whatever survived the main attack.
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Mr.Frag
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by Mr.Frag »

A coordinated massed strike WOULD blow through any real CAP in 1942 (and maybe 43, but there were few opportunities in 43 to find out).

Yes, but where are all the penalties to limit the coordination on the attack side that in reality was never achieved until late in the war due to technology increases?

Hell, it took an hour to get a flight of 12 B-17s up and ready to fly off to bomb somewhere and 36 hours before they were ready yet we routinely run hundred plane raids as if it was the norm.

You can't just change one side of the coin ... both have equal and opposite problems. Both effectively come down to a level of abstraction. You either accept that both are built into that abstraction or you pick apart both sides equally.
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by testarossa »

ORIGINAL: Halsey
2. CAP is allowed to defend every TF in a hex, instead of only it's own. Without dedicating fighters to a LRCAP mission to other TF's in the same hex.

Fighter could easily cover 60x60 box for CAP purposes. It will take it 10 minutes to move from one point to another. If radar has 100-150 miles coverage any CAP will have enough time to react.

I personally don't see any solution to this DS problem. Everyone has some kind of explanation or/and proposal which doesn't solve the problem in 100% cases. May be there should be some kind of house rule to limit CV in one hex to 4? The same as limit on number of ships in ASW groups or 4 engined level bombing against ships?
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RE: CV Airstrike Coordination

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
A coordinated massed strike WOULD blow through any real CAP in 1942 (and maybe 43, but there were few opportunities in 43 to find out).

Yes, but where are all the penalties to limit the coordination on the attack side that in reality was never achieved until late in the war due to technology increases?

Hell, it took an hour to get a flight of 12 B-17s up and ready to fly off to bomb somewhere and 36 hours before they were ready yet we routinely run hundred plane raids as if it was the norm.

You can't just change one side of the coin ... both have equal and opposite problems. Both effectively come down to a level of abstraction. You either accept that both are built into that abstraction or you pick apart both sides equally.

Agree completely.

I am assuming that when all the dust settles, the strike coordination penalty will work as intended. I am moving on to the NEXT windmill here[:D] to insure that the defense doesn't get even stronger.

AS written, the coordination penalty should force the USN to break down to two CV TFs in 42. This will insure that there will be THREE perfectly coordinated strikes(at best) from a 6 CV force (broken into three separate TFs) in the same hex. The trouble is that these three TFs now combine their CAP into ONE monstrous force that overwhelms even coordinated single CV (and double CV) strikes. I am just saying that the easest way to implement a realistic CAP model is to apply demi9nishing returns. In reality, at Midway the Yorktown got the benefit of only a four plane CAP from the Enterprise and only after the first Japanese strike was over. Rather than completely change the algorithms to implement separate CAPs for each carrier, an easier (an probably equally invalid) approach is to apply dimenishing returns.

Just as an aside in response to one of the many points above, IF CAP were modeled this way it does have the effect of cushioning the losses defending against successife strikes. For example (using the simplistic algorithm I discussed earlier), if a CAP had a total of 90 fighters, it would defend with an EFFECTIVE strength of 54 (all of 32 plus half of the next 32 plus 1/4 of the remaining 26). If (for example again) it lost 10 fighters defending against the first strike, the remaining 80 fighters would have an EFFECTIVE strength of 52 (32 plus half of 32 plus 1/4 of 16). This effect gives the defender an incentive to assign more than the "breakpoint minimum" to CAP.
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