Okay..this might be some bad computing

[pompack]

As Lemurs! says

"Don't Know"

However I suspect that the actual kill mechanism was fire, not some penetration calculation glitch.

Before we jump on this and complain that " Fire Damage is EXCESSIVE!!!" let's wait and see if someone can find another case even remotely excessive.

As that statisticians say "S___ Happens". People notice results beyond 6 sigma (Good Lord did you see that !!) because it's different and memorable while results within 1 sigma are "normal" and not really noticed (" I just had 5BBs with attending cruisers and destroyers surprise a merchie and they sank it on the first round!! I'm going to post this result right away![;)]).

I would imagine that there have been well over 3000 surface battles since 1.5. If this is really just a far-out result this IS a little soon to expect it, but highly unlikely results are just as likely on the first trial as the 1,000,000th. Let's gather some more history on fires under 1.5 before we start calling it wrong

[hexgod]

ORIGINAL: pompack

As Lemurs! says

"Don't Know"

However I suspect that the actual kill mechanism was fire, not some penetration calculation glitch.

Before we jump on this and complain that " Fire Damage is EXCESSIVE!!!" let's wait and see if someone can find another case even remotely excessive.

Excuse me, how is this example NOT "remotely exessive" ?

[Mr.Frag]

I am curious how aircraft bomb damage became part of this discussion. It has nothing at all to do with surface combat.

[Iridium]

I'm sorry but I don't believe that fire damage would be that great from 6" shells. Unless they were filled with Napalm.[8|]Even if this is WAD, it seems awfully odd that no or few BB guns hit the Boise. Meanwhile 6" guns shred heavily armored ships, when the shells should be just bouncing off or doing superficial damage to armor.

Granted the Boise is a good ship but should it be able to out fight even one BB? Someone should create a scenario to try to reproduce this...[:'(] Or at least see if it can happen again.

[rroberson]

My opponent just mentioned something I hadn't considered before. Earlier in game (about three days earlier) I caught Force Z with 140 high level bombers of Malaya. He had just raided one of my task groups landing troops and I caught him retiring during the day. 140 bombers. No hits. Not a scratch. At the time I thought I just caught one of those extremely bad die rolls. Now I wonder if our entire game is screwed up.

[Nomad]

This would be a part of that combat report:
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/41
[ snip ]

Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 17
Ki-48 Lily x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 1 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 9 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 51
G4M1 Betty x 9
Ki-21 Sally x 84

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 2 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet

[ snip ]

I couldn't believe that I took no hits and then the surface combat three days later and I knew I had used all my luck up. [:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

This would be a part of that combat report:
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/41
[ snip ]

Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 17
Ki-48 Lily x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 1 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 9 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 51
G4M1 Betty x 9
Ki-21 Sally x 84

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 2 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet

[ snip ]

I couldn't believe that I took no hits and then the surface combat three days later and I knew I had used all my luck up. [:D]

Well, in real life, the PoW routinely beat off all IJA and IJN air attacks, right?[:D][X(][8|]

(Before anyone jumps on me, that was irony, folks!)

[Bradley7735]

From my experience, level bombers don't hit ships with bombs very often. Especially at 15k feet. None of the betties/nells dropped torpedoes. I wouldn't count this example as weird.

In my games vs AI, Japan's level bombers made one or two hits on ships with bombs in a couple of years.

[rroberson]

Well given enough shots the odds of a hit would increase. I wouldnt expect 140 hits from 140 bombers...but 1 out of 100?

[Oleg Mastruko]

Irony notwithstanding in real life Nells didn't attack with bombs, from 15k feet. They attacked with torpedos from ~200 ft.

These results of aerial attack seem OK to me. Level bombers, from that high up, very very rarely score against fast moving warships. Which is fine.

The REAL question should be - why ALL Nell groups attacked with bombs, shouldn't at least some of them arm with torpedos?

What was the range of this attack? Were Nells within their standard range, or extended range? If extended range, I - even being a "IJN advocate" in most cases - would consider these results as perfectly normal.

O.

[Grotius]

On the BB surface-combat question: I dimly recall reading suggestions that BBs aren't as effective in Bombardments as CAs are. I have some admittedly anecdotal experience that suggests as much. Could it be that BB guns aren't working right?

[Nomad]

Well, they don't hit a lot at 15000 feet but in our first game I had a Dutch Martin hit one of the kaku Cvs from 15000 feet on Dec 7. [:D] I have had them also hit a CL and I believe a CA all from 15000 feet. I would have expected a hit or two from such a mass of bombers that should have more experience than my Dutch aircrews.

Anyway, we were not putting it forth as an absolute but one more data item on this game. Who knows what affects what in War in the Pacific? I don't. [8D]

[nubbin77]

If for nothing else, this is another reason I think there should be another option to remove tactical fog of war. That way you could watch the replay without fog of war on and see what really happened and it might make it easier to pinpoint what weapons / ships / etc are causing the problem.

[Nomad]

Rob would have to confirm this, but from what he has said earlier, this was a Surface Combat TF, not a Bombardment TF. Mine was definatly a Surface combat TF.

[doktorblood]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

This would be a part of that combat report:
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/41
[ snip ]

Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 17
Ki-48 Lily x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 1 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 9 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 51
G4M1 Betty x 9
Ki-21 Sally x 84

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 2 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet

[ snip ]

I couldn't believe that I took no hits and then the surface combat three days later and I knew I had used all my luck up. [:D]

I don't see anything wrong with it, the Bettys and Nells must have been at extended range reduced loadout, otherwise they would be packin torpedos. Maybe the Sallies were extended range as well? High altitude level bombing shouldn't be very effective vs. moving ships.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Rob would have to confirm this, but from what he has said earlier, this was a Surface Combat TF, not a Bombardment TF. Mine was definatly a Surface combat TF.

I seem to recall them being a surface attack group...I knew he had those two CLs at Balik and I was going after them to keep them from raising more hell with my landing forces.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

ORIGINAL: Nomad

This would be a part of that combat report:
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/08/41
[ snip ]

Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 17
Ki-48 Lily x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 1 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 9 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,48

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 51
G4M1 Betty x 9
Ki-21 Sally x 84

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 2 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse
BB Prince of Wales

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet

[ snip ]

I couldn't believe that I took no hits and then the surface combat three days later and I knew I had used all my luck up. [:D]

I don't see anything wrong with it, the Bettys and Nells must have been at extended range reduced loadout, otherwise they would be packin torpedos. Maybe the Sallies were extended range as well? High altitude level bombing shouldn't be very effective vs. moving ships.

Sallys and Lilys were probably at their extreme range...I believe the Nells were from oh whatever that southern port is facing Malaya...close...filled with Nells, I had moved a group of Bettys there figuring he would try to break up my landing forces with Force Z...so I expected them to use torpedos...surprise.

[Wolfie1]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

I'm sorry...I have to catch my breath here. After I reinserted my eyes back into the sockets, I spent at least 20 minutes rolling on the floor with agonizing laughter. Then I read on into the thread. Then I rolled around some more after I looked at Mog's replay. So now, I think I will have some fun with this. The possible reasons for why this happened...

1) The US has secretly allied itself with the Klingons. There was a squadron of cloaked Birds of Prey overhead.....

2) The US has secretly invented the Deathray and mounted it on the USS Boise...of all things.

3) Rats chewed through the wiring (see Glantz, "Battle of Kursk")

4) The Japanese allowed the US to close the range so that the IJN TF CO could use the clever insults he learned while he was studying international relations at Harvard.

5) The very klutzy Baka brothers just happaned to be serving on every ship in the TF. And as so often happens in slapstick comedy, set off simultaneous magazine explosions on every ship. This promises to be a classic crowd favorite with the commedy lovers for years to come.

6) The captain of the Chiyoda got pissed off at his TF commander and shot the entire TF, execution-style, with his ship's mighty armament.

7) This being the early days of the war (judging by the US TF composition), no one had told the Americans that the Japanese will whoop dey @ss, and that they simply cannot go around doing things like this. By the time someone clued them in, RRob was very upset.

8) Right before the battle, the US TF had its spirits lifted by an amazingly inspirational speech by George W. Bush.

9) Blame the Russians

10) It was all just a baaaaad dream.....


OK, I'm out of ammo, kinda like the Boise.

11) US develops Arleigh Burke class DD's 50 years early.

[Caltone]

I'm getting old so my memory may be failing, but didn't I read somewhere you needed to set a lower altitude if you wanted to increase your LBA's chances or arming torps? This seems to be my experience ingame but I routinely set my Nells and Bettys to 6K when they are expecting naval targets.

OTOH the results of this surface combat floored me. That is so out of whack with reality that not even the SH#T HAPPENS piece comes into play. Not just unlikely, but impossible.

[String]

I'm willing to bet that the betties and nells didn't fly from a size 4 airfield[;)] or did fly from it but at a greater than 15 hex range. I've never seen a betty or a nell carry bombs from a suitable sized airfield (>4) and in normal range