Heavy Bomber Losses

[Speedysteve]

Hi String,

I believe it is just covering the period from when the 8th entered service until the end of the war (just looking at the 8th not BC for example). I also believe the loss rate was 1:1 on average against bombers. Sure I know you have the Schweinfurt raids which out balance it but ON AVERAGE across the war the losses were 1:1. When escorts came on the scene you can forget that ratio.........

Regards,

Steven

[Sardaukar]

Well, going in low against competent fighter opposition and heavy flak will give results similar like Schweinfurt raid. I don't see anything wrong with those results..maybe I'd adjust the ratio of destroyed/damaged more towards damaged, though...but that can be just FOW.
Unescorted bombers against heavy fighter opposition was quickly discovered to be not a good idea. It was done basicly because there were no fighters with enough range and the targets were deemed more valuable than planes and crews. One reason why Brits went to night time bombing was their bad experiences about daylight bombing in early WW II.

Gamewise, I never fly 4-engined bombers lower than 15 000 ft. Even 2-engined rarely go under 10 000 ft against land targets. Flak can be devastating under 10 000 ft.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Speedysteve]

Hi M.S,

You're right going in loan against heavy flak and decent heavy fighters should lead to heavy losses BUT
Jap flak is not German flak or anywhere near it and a Tony or Tojo ain't a 190. I'm not going to make anymore claims now until i've done a lot of tests. Lets do the tests and see what they bring up. As I said before maybe all is well and good and i'm concerned over nothing [:)]

Regards,

Steven

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

Oh I'm sure B-17 crews claimed more scores than any others. Hell, gunners from every B-17 in the formation would be shooting at the same fighters; if one went down they all thought they hit it.

Yep, that's the way it seems to me. German loses were never close to allied bomber claims. I can't recall the source, but I remember one book stating that bombers very seldom shot down fighters, they just drove them off. It makes sense, really. A fighter takes a few hits will probably escape - it's not like the B-17 is going to give chase or anything. (Now that's a mental picture)

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi M.S,

You're right going in loan against heavy flak and decent heavy fighters should lead to heavy losses BUT
Jap flak is not German flak or anywhere near it and a Tony or Tojo ain't a 190. I'm not going to make anymore claims now until i've done a lot of tests. Lets do the tests and see what they bring up. As I said before maybe all is well and good and i'm concerned over nothing [:)]

Regards,

Steven

Yea, Japanese planes are not FW-190 A-8 (for example) in firepower..well, George may be close with 4x20 mm, though. Still, any aircraft with 20 mm or heavier armament was able to bring down B-17 (any model, even the "gunship" YB-40 model).
I don't think Japanese 20 mm were quite as effective in muzzle velocity as German ones, but their effect in target were close each other, AFAIK.
Then I'm starting to get concerned if light-armed Oscars start to shoot down droves of B-17s [:)]. But I agree, this could use some testing.

Cheers,

M.S.

[castor troy]

My opinion: Yes heavy bomber losses are REALLY REALLY too high. And I´m playing as Japanese. Against AI I shoot those B17 down just like they were WWI aircraft. Have a look at my 2 Rufe daitais stationed at Gili Gili which is attacked regularly by AI with unescorted B17, about 25 - 30 B17 per attack. These are my best Rufe pilots, there are others also with B17 kills. They never fought an other plane, so all kills are B17. Not to mention what my Tonies are doing to the B17 which I just brought in.

[castor troy]

And here are the total A2A losses of B17! In return I lost about 10 Rufes and 2 or 3 Tonies. My pilots are really experienced (all 75-99) but I think it should just be impossible to shoot down these amount of B17 with Rufes. Even not with my Tonies which are my best anti bomber weapon at the moment.





So what´s the ratio? In my case 173/15. 1 to 11!!! And that with Rufe as the most used ac in my case! THAT´S JUST NUTS!!!!!![:(][:(][:(][:(][:(]

[freeboy]

what was the experience level of the 17's?

[tsimmonds]

what was the experience level of the 17's?

exactly.

[Speedysteve]

Interesting Castor Troy. More tests and results the merrier. I hope to and plan on doing a lot of detailed tests over the weekend (provided my PBEM opponents slow down on their turns [;)]). We'll see what happens.

Go Rufe's [;)]

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

what was the experience level of the 17's?

exactly.

I agree that more info is needed - height of bombing. Leadership values. Morale etc.

When I do my tests I plan to test and record a lot (leader values, exp, morale, fatigue, altitude changes, plane types, range to target size of airfield etc)

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

what was the experience level of the 17's?

They are in the 60s. But morale is low now because they´ve been slaughtered for a while now. They´re attacking between 6.000 and 19.000 feet and my CAP is always on 15.000 feet. My daitais are high experienced but I think not only the experience should count here when attacking these monsters with FLOAT PLANES, repeat FLOAT PLANES. Why are we talking about leaders, experience or moral? Look at the results folks!! If float planes were so effective against B17, hey, why didn´t the German put their 500 best pilots of the Luftwaffe into some float planes and took down 200 of a 500 B17 raid over Germany! [:-][:-] We´re talking about Rufes and the German had enough problems with Fw190 and Me109 to kill the bombers off.

[Speedysteve]

Castor I do agree that at FACE VALUE it does seem a bit much for Rufe's to be shooting down forts but maybe the following info would be helpful anyhow -

How many missions has this occurred?
Exp, morale and fatigue levels of all involved?
Altitude and what affect it has on your results?
Flak at site?
Level of airfield?
Sound Detector involved?
Numbers of planes involved?

Regards,

Steven

[freeboy]

I want to see the plane by plane nuts and bolts, unfortunately we cannot.. it would be interesting.. just a note .. I saw a lot of 17's go down and always wondered how and why??? as the game progressed I started to escort them.. if able to just seems this model really does not like long rang non escorted heavies.. ie normally damaged cannot make it back etc

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I want to see the plane by plane nuts and bolts, unfortunately we cannot.. it would be interesting.. just a note .. I saw a lot of 17's go down and always wondered how and why??? as the game progressed I started to escort them.. if able to just seems this model really does not like long rang non escorted heavies.. ie normally damaged cannot make it back etc

That doesn't sound right to me if thats happening. I agree that unescorted losses should be higher but these guys are known for their ruggedness and durability

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Castor I do agree that at FACE VALUE it does seem a bit much for Rufe's to be shooting down forts but maybe the following info would be helpful anyhow -

How many missions has this occurred?
Exp, morale and fatigue levels of all involved?
Altitude and what affect it has on your results?
Flak at site?
Level of airfield?
Sound Detector involved?
Numbers of planes involved?

Regards,

Steven

I think about 30 - 40 attacks now. No matter how much I kill off, every turn there are coming more. Always about 25 -30. My fighters are high experienced with about 75-80 average exeperience each daitai. B17 with about 60 exp. Moral of my daitais is high, not so with the B17. I can´t really see great differences no matter at what altitude they come in (6000-19000), so my fighters stay at 15000. AF is size 5, 2 sound detectors. About 25-30 B17 each attack and 20-25 Tonies and 10-12 Rufes now.

[castor troy]

Here´s the last combat report :




Attack was totally fought off and a total of 13 was lost referring to the ac losses list. Hey, these B17 in WITP are not the B17 which flew in RL over Europe.

[Speedysteve]

Thanks for that Castor. Tests are always good. More the merrier. I hope to have a lot more after the weekend.

Steven

[Mr.Frag]

I think about 30 - 40 attacks now. No matter how much I kill off, every turn there are coming more. Always about 25 -30. My fighters are high experienced with about 75-80 average exeperience each daitai. B17 with about 60 exp. Moral of my daitais is high, not so with the B17. I can´t really see great differences no matter at what altitude they come in (6000-19000), so my fighters stay at 15000. AF is size 5, 2 sound detectors. About 25-30 B17 each attack and 20-25 Tonies and 10-12 Rufes now.

These attacks running non-stop? Morale is probably in the toilet which is going to affect results.

[Speedysteve]

Ok this is what i've decided on my tests:

Will vary the following for each sets of attacks (10 per round):

Number of planes involved
Leaders
Experience of pilots
Range of attack
Target airfield
Length of attack (continuous, every 2 days every 3 days etc)
Altitude

1. Forts against Zero
2. Forts against Oscar 1
3. Forts against Tonies
4. Forts against Ki84A
5. Superforts against Zero
6. Superforts against Oscar 1
7. Superforts against Tonies
8. Superforts against Ki84A

What do you all think? Any suggestions?

Regards,

Steven