My conclusions on game balance

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: daskomodo

Looking at that map, anyone can pull that off vs the AI, since it hardly puts up any defense for the Middle-East or Spain.

If you were playing a human player, what the heck was he doing? Probably building useless bombers I bet.

Seriously, Oleg, can you recall what the Allied strategy was in that game?

It was vs human, I said that in the original post. He wasn't doing anything stupid or wrong, he played a solid game, he was perhaps too passive, probably waiting for US and USSR to join the war and win the war for him.

I don't know whether he did build lots of bombers but I wouldn't be afraid of them anyway.

But, I will reiterate again, my point is that it's too easy, so do not blame me for the result [:D] I wanted to prove it's too easy, and I guess I proved it (in this and other similar games). That's why my suggestion on the beta board, and change in my own mod Raw Deal 40, is to raise the PP level needed for Axis AV to (at least) 72.

Oleg

[hakon]

I guess the main issue with this way of winning, is that it requires you to take out territories where you would get almost all the resources anyway from free trade.

A modification could be to move auto victory to 80 or 85, but let free trade be factored into it. Being able to win before Russia even enters the war should be close to impossible.

[hakon]

Daskomondo: England can possibly/probably defend against a sealion by building anti air, or even fighters. (Artillery alone will get bombed). Remember, though, that by taking Gibraltar, the 4 italian transports can help in the invasion.

Anti air will not protect all those neutrals, though. Additionaly, germany has more than enough starting units to take all that territory. The UK surely cannot stop it if Germany neglects building up vs the USSR. (Compare infantry/armor/artillery/aircraft between the UK and Gemany at the start of the game).

The main strain on Germany is of course to get all supply needed to repair those resources within the given timeframe, but the fact that the victory was claimed in summer of 42, when the USA and USSR dont join until winter, means that he had a pretty big margin.

I, at least, was totally convinced that it is more or less impossible the kind of victory in the screeny.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Here's another, very interesting example. This is from a game vs. VERY good, very aggressive and VERY experienced Allies opponent. He attacked and counter attacked me constantly, from the very first turn. This game was so hard, so full of surprises and shrewd moves I thought my head is going to explode. Note he just retook Spain with major forces.

Frankly, I got mixed feelings about this one. Honestly I didn't really thought I deserved to win, but on the other hand, WHEN I did win in a fair game, it was one of the sweetest wargaming victories that I remember [:D]

But I really didn't deserve to win, or to put it differently, Mike didn't deserve to lose.

I used the experience from this game when doing my mod, so, no matter how sweet this victory is, if you play Raw Deal it won't be possible there [8D]

Note I AM in war with USSR, but NO provinces changed hands on the Ostfront! Game was huge gamble from the start, and if it wasn't for the AV, Russian tanks would be rolling over East Europe soon (which is realistic). But, everyone concluded they prefer peace to further bloodshed. I think Allies will leave Spain to Republicans, and Franco will have to escape to Argentina or somewhere [:-]

O.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Final situation in Europe in that game.

[MarcelJV]

So do you believe then that if the total required was 72 you would never have achieved that total in this game.

Have you seen the next patch release notes just posted where allot of the changes talked about will be implemented. Including reducing technologies and reseting world standards?

By the way I am really enjoying this thread, and the great comments made by the participants.

By the way is there any real advantage to running the game in windowed mode?

[Joel Billings]

You don't have to Alt-Tab, something that can cause problems with the VCR buttons among other things. The programmer claims the game will be more stable in Windowed mode than if a player is constantly Alt-Tabbing out of a full screen game.

[hakon]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You don't have to Alt-Tab, something that can cause problems with the VCR buttons among other things. The programmer claims the game will be more stable in Windowed mode than if a player is constantly Alt-Tabbing out of a full screen game.

Interesting to see how closely the moderators is following this thread.

[MarcelJV]

ORIGINAL: hakon

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You don't have to Alt-Tab, something that can cause problems with the VCR buttons among other things. The programmer claims the game will be more stable in Windowed mode than if a player is constantly Alt-Tabbing out of a full screen game.

Interesting to see how closely the moderators is following this thread.

Wants to make sure we are not trashing the game to heavily.[:-]

Have you read the changes for the next patch and if so any idea how that might help the apparent game balance issues?

[MarcelJV]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You don't have to Alt-Tab, something that can cause problems with the VCR buttons among other things. The programmer claims the game will be more stable in Windowed mode than if a player is constantly Alt-Tabbing out of a full screen game.

Thanks for the information, I have never experience any problems alt-tabing during the game, in fact I can not remember any game that caused me problems, but then again I do not try to play the game while at work and would need to alt-tab to avoid being caught.

This will not doubt explain how come I am behind in the effective strategies for this game or the balance issues.

[hakon]

I see no reason to trash the game. The last few games I have played have been modded, though, and not too differently from the patch changes.

I think the patch is addressing unit imbalances pretty well, and I am very interested in seeing how they are relocating units in siberia. But for now, I thing the only way to stop the auto-victory-abuse is to turn the option off.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: MarcelJV

So do you believe then that if the total required was 72 you would never have achieved that total in this game.

Have you seen the next patch release notes just posted where allot of the changes talked about will be implemented. Including reducing technologies and reseting world standards?

By the way is there any real advantage to running the game in windowed mode?

1. Most certainly I would not. 70 PP was literally a question of victory or near certain defeat. Look at the screenshot of Europe above! Russian avalanche was about to be released upon Germans in the East.

2. Yes I know about the next patch (I am one of the beta testers [8|]). Many very welcome improvements making this game even better. I still do think some changes could have been more "radical" (for lack of better word) but that's what mods are for [:D]

3. Yes, especially when you play at work or have to multi-task, but nothing inherent to the game itself that I would know of.

O.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: hakon

I see no reason to trash the game. The last few games I have played have been modded, though, and not too differently from the patch changes.

I think the patch is addressing unit imbalances pretty well, and I am very interested in seeing how they are relocating units in siberia. But for now, I thing the only way to stop the auto-victory-abuse is to turn the option off.

In my opinion AV is *essential* for properly playing (and enjoying) this game, it just needs to be made little harder to get, that's all.

There was interesting idea about making AV level 80 or 85, BUT with resources from free trade and gifts calculated into that number. (I'd go for 75 or 80 then, because 85 is certainly too high. You never get that much resources from FT)

Oleg

[daskomodo]

Ok, I hate to play Monday morning general, but looking at the last screenie Oleg posted.

Just looking at the screenshot:
- The Allies have 10 units in Spain, 11 in Sardinia. And yet, Morocco and Algeria are still Vichy frozen.
- That Italian fleet looks stretched. One big fleet push in the Med and the Afrika Korps turns into a giant prison camp.
- Iraq is totally undefended. One militia can remove 2 resource
- I can't see Norway and Sweden. How well defended are they?
- Western France has 3 units defending it.
- Portugal is still Axis.
- What were the defenses like in the Pacific when Japan struck out against the WA?
(I realize that some of these conquests were probably done at the last minute, inflating the Axis resource count above 70 for a turn)

Oleg, don't get me wrong. I'm sure both you and your opponent are good players. I don't have the moves that lead up to this screenshot. But it seems that the Allies have been hitting you in the wrong place.

Heck, I'd put all those idling Russian tanks in Leningrad/Archangel and invade Finland.

[batou]

How about changing AV such that it only comes into play after a certain turn. Lets say either Sp'43 or two turns after the SU is attacked (or something to that effect). That way the SU cannot be ignored. Just a suggestion.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Daskomodo, you don't need to be monday morning general (I thought it was "quarterback"?[:)] but anyway) to see at least 10-12 troublespots for Axis on the screenshot above. In the very next turn I'd be losing Rumania, East Prussia, West or South France (or both), big chunk of Middle East, Anadolia, North Persia, East Poland, perhaps Hungary. Whole of Med, all fleets there are ripe for taking. Heck even the surviving Turks would be able to wreak havoc in Greece, Turkey and rest of Balkans! It was an immense gamble as I said.

If anyone needs a screenshot to illustrate "victory snatched from jaws of defeat" I think this one will do nicely [:D]

But that is why I frankly and honestly said I didn't deserve to win. My opponent - bless him - accepted the outcome without a single word of complaint. In fact he encouraged me to go "for the throat" for the last couple turns (I was around 65-66 PP for some time). He knew very well what I was up to (I said it to him in as many words).

The last, final, and game-deciding resource I got by attacking Anadolia (East Turkey) from Syria and Irak. I didn't have to care about 8 Turks surviving in my midst, because by attacking 1 INF in Anadolya I got resource I needed. That's why in my mod (I am boring yes, but allow me some cheap marketing for my mod [:D]) Anadolia is defended better.

Oleg

[pyrhic]

Actually my last game against aletoledo was very similar, and actually far more precarious on the russian front for him. He won on autovictory too (apparently had adapted your strategy).

I agree with you that autovictory is an essential component, and actually, i don't mind it at 70. However, the thing i feel MUST be changed is it firing at the end of axis turns. It just doesn't make logical sense to me. According to the manual, production is calculated (for everyone at the same time) at the beginning of the german turn each round. THAT is when the autovictory should be calculated. This could actually work much better for the game as it gives the allies a final chance to break the axis, launch those final attacks, push etc.

If the game were RT or Phase-based, i could understand it ending in the middle of a turn cycle, but for a turn-based game to end the middle of a turn? Even the abstract doesnt make sense, since all players are abstractly moving at the same time period...

[MarcelJV]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: MarcelJV

So do you believe then that if the total required was 72 you would never have achieved that total in this game.

Have you seen the next patch release notes just posted where allot of the changes talked about will be implemented. Including reducing technologies and reseting world standards?

By the way is there any real advantage to running the game in windowed mode?

1. Most certainly I would not. 70 PP was literally a question of victory or near certain defeat. Look at the screenshot of Europe above! Russian avalanche was about to be released upon Germans in the East.

2. Yes I know about the next patch (I am one of the beta testers [8|]). Many very welcome improvements making this game even better. I still do think some changes could have been more "radical" (for lack of better word) but that's what mods are for [:D]

3. Yes, especially when you play at work or have to multi-task, but nothing inherent to the game itself that I would know of.

O.

Ok, given you are a beta tester here is a waky question and idea. What if the turn order was changed so the Japan and the Soviet Union switch places.[X(] Would that help the Soviets a great deal. It seems to me it would but that might break the neutral resources going to Japan. This would let the Soviets move forces to defend the east.
Ah, that won't work at it will require to many changes, but does fit the radical level of idea.

[daskomodo]

In the very next turn I'd be losing Rumania, East Prussia, West or South France (or both), big chunk of Middle East, Anadolia, North Persia, East Poland, perhaps Hungary. Whole of Med, all fleets there are ripe for taking.

Yeah, I'm just saying that had the Allies contested some of those resources a few turns before, then you'd be close, but not quite, at auto-victory.

Had a few things gone differently, then you'd miss your gamble for auto-victory and Germany would probably be dead by 1944.

In the early years, the Allies need to look for weak spots in the Axis' armor, hit em hard and rub some salt in while they are at it. They need to keep an eye on that Axis PP count and say, how much more til auto-victory? How do I prevent that?

And for gosh sakes, hit those tenuous supply lines. Imagine if he had parked half his fleet in the Central Med 2 turns ago. No side of Turkey for you [;)]

[James Ward]

If it is possible for the Axis to win an automatic victory BEFORE the US or Russia even move then there is a problem with the automatic victory conditions.