The return of tristanjohn

[mogami]

Hi, LOL Mike I never realized you are almost as funny as Pasternaski and he is the funnist person I have ever encountered. (I would really love to drink beer and hear him in person.)

[mdiehl]

Yeah well. Suddenly realized that I have been much too earnest. I mean, I side with TJs comments about the game but, wow, this thread has really hit the skids. People being just too mean to each other given that everyone has an interest in seeing a decent WW2 PTO game (otherwise why'd they be here right)? [:D]

If you really get me going I'll try to recall from memory excerpts from Marshall Dodge's downeast comedy routines.

"And the trousahs of his pockits wuz so full of trout, that a button pahpped aoff his fly and killed a pahtrij."

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: moses

First this

You're still in ad hominem mode

then

Mogami is a company kind of guy. He seems to like (possibly he requires) structure, perhaps he likes to be told what to do and how to do it and like that. I don't know. I do know there are many people in life of that ilk, in fact most people fall into that category to one degree or another, though some (many?) don't "like" it much, which explains why I'm forever running into people who are miserable doing what they do. But that's something else

.


Followed by this.

Either way, that wouldn't excuse your ad hominem pleas.

Complain about ad Hominm attack, launch one yourself, complain again. Seems rather inconsistant.

Gee, and after a long article posted on just that subject, and you still can't puzzle out what is and what is not an ad hominem plea?

Well, keep trying. [:D]

[moses]

....ad hominem pleas to the masses. It's an old technique of "discredit the man" in order to discredit the man's ideas and work.

Here it is from your article. Seems like I got it correct.

But I see by the tone of your post that it is simply another ad Hominim attack. I get it. I still can't 'puzzle' it out. That means I'm not very smart.

"Well keep trying" I see---- by that you try to establish that you are. Yes master I will keep trying to puzzle out these mysteries until one day I achieve you're level.

At least you quoted me correctly.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: moses

....ad hominem pleas to the masses. It's an old technique of "discredit the man" in order to discredit the man's ideas and work.

Here it is from your article. Seems like I got it correct.

Not making an argument there, just a simple observation. That it happens to not be flattering does not make it ad hominem automatically.

But I see by the tone of your post that it is simply another ad Hominim attack. I get it. I still can't 'puzzle' it out. That means I'm not very smart.

Well, you said it, not me.

Again, there is no ad hominem plea there, either in fact or intent. No doubt I could have used the verb "figure out" instead of "puzzle out" and still you'd consider that an "attack," when in reality it's merely an obvious comment based on your behavior. (The irony here is that with people like you it is difficult not to write directly andf still avoid what might be casually viewed as attacks. Not impossible, mind you, just difficult.)

"Well keep trying" I see---- by that you try to establish that you are. Yes master I will keep trying to puzzle out these mysteries until one day I achieve you're level.

The only thing holding you back is your attitude. (And guess what you just wrote happens to be. [8|])

[Ron Saueracker]

I got squat to do right now. I'm interested in yet another AAR as Allies even though one would think the Lunacy series enough on top of all the AARs posted as examples of the excesses available to players due to design.

Couple things though. I can't sit through another "stock" job. I'm down to one install and it has Andrew Brown's map with extension. So I'd like the game to be CHS as alot has been done to reduce the over abundance of logistics orientated elements. ie...new map with adjusted infrastructure, reduced resources, reduced capacities of merchants etc. China is a whole different kettle of fish in CHS to boot. Also, since I have just one install the game must go with Beta 1.795.

I'd also like to utilize Nik's latest air to air modifications and put them to the test. It is a given that the stock A2A model is a bloodbath so no point in using it. This would require the CHS scenario to be altered for the test.

What else? Can anyone think of something before we start, assuming Tris is up for it?

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I got squat to do right now. I'm interested in yet another AAR as Allies even though one would think the Lunacy series enough on top of all the AARs posted as examples of the excesses available to players due to design.

Couple things though. I can't sit through another "stock" job. I'm down to one install and it has Andrew Brown's map with extension. So I'd like the game to be CHS as alot has been done to reduce the over abundance of logistics orientated elements. ie...new map with adjusted infrastructure, reduced resources, reduced capacities of merchants etc. China is a whole different kettle of fish in CHS to boot. Also, since I have just one install the game must go with Beta 1.795.

I'd also like to utilize Nik's latest air to air modifications and put them to the test. It is a given that the stock A2A model is a bloodbath so no point in using it. This would require the CHS scenario to be altered for the test.

What else? Can anyone think of something before we start, assuming Tris is up for it?

Hi, did you read the Lunacy AAR's it is post May 1942 what is Tom saying I am going too fast??? except for having Port Moresby I'm pretty much right where Japan was at that time. I have no aircontrol anywhere except for portion of China or when I commit almost everything I have.
I have not used Naval Bombardment to excess. (TF bombarding any base in South Pacific always returned to Truk to rearm)
I have not over stacked any airfields or used ASW TF larger then 6 ships. (I've used my standard rules for playing except for turn 1 and PP costs)

The Lunatic part of these games was simply Allied player willing to allow Japan to attack Soviets and use 1 turn movement exploit. Neither Tom or Oleg allowed the Soviet attack to occur or for Japan to move units from CEA to Burma. Sio in Short there is no Lunacy in those games. (The Allied player was supposed to be the Lunatic not me but instead it appears I am a lunatic stuck with yet another Japan gets ground to death game. (Yawn)
I never got the chance to see the exploits in action and so no one can make any accessment about them. In the Nomad game I discovered it is much harder to set up the attack on Soviets then I had thought. You can't target Soviet bases for air attack or landings before they are activated.

If anything the TH game shows it is the Allies not the Japanese with too much and they lost control of SRA supply in first week of war. It took 400,000 Japanese several months to gets odds on Manila. Too fast? Huh? The troops used to take Port Moresby required over 6 weeks to get ready They were preped to 100 percent. (How long between fall of Manila and landing on Port Moresby???)

[Mr.Frag]

Why don't you focus your efforts on creating a macro design document instead of infighting.

Re-writing WitP from scratch without an AI with a proper design document is about 2 months worth of work.

There are at least 5 people in this forum with the coding skills, given a proper design to kick out the game. There are plenty of people with the graphics skills for the UI.

Make it your hobby.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I got squat to do right now. I'm interested in yet another AAR as Allies even though one would think the Lunacy series enough on top of all the AARs posted as examples of the excesses available to players due to design.

Couple things though. I can't sit through another "stock" job. I'm down to one install and it has Andrew Brown's map with extension. So I'd like the game to be CHS as alot has been done to reduce the over abundance of logistics orientated elements. ie...new map with adjusted infrastructure, reduced resources, reduced capacities of merchants etc. China is a whole different kettle of fish in CHS to boot.Also, since I have just one install the game must go with Beta 1.795.

I'd also like to utilize Nik's latest air to air modifications and put them to the test. It is a given that the stock A2A model is a bloodbath so no point in using it.

What else? Can anyone think of something before we start, assuming Tris is up for it?

Well, as I mentioned to you a couple weeks ago when you got me to come back to this den of inequity, I'd love to play a team game, with you and I taking on whomever. I assume you'd want to play as the Allies, and if so, fine. Me, I'm more flexible. I tried to play to Japanese once in a team match with Chez if you recall (in fact that was agaisnt you), but that turned sour after whoeveritwas screwed up the relative ranges of IJN/USN CV air assets. (By the way, that's been long since corrected, right? I won't play anything that silly.)

So anyway, I'm game for that.

I would think Russ would jump at the chance to beat the two of us from pillar to post as the bad guys, but who knows? (Come to think of it, you were kicking the stuffing out of Russ off Java as the Allies last I looked, but then play ceased. Was that game ever resumed?)

I'm all for a CHS match, too. I much prefer Andrew's map (not the gaphics, but his map layout makes more sense), and I assume some progress has been made with regard to supply and shipping at least. Have the Allied bombers I noted along the way as being undermodeled with re to range been made right? Like the Hudson, for instance, and the Ventura? Probably not, huh? (The pertinent thread for that discussion can be found here: Stock scenarios versus mods)

Oh, well.

Anyway, if that's okay with you, all that's left is to find our pigeons. [:D]

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

If anything the TH game shows it is the Allies not the Japanese with too much and they lost control of SRA supply in first week of war.

I noted that I can't tell you how long ago. And harped and harped and harped on it based on my own play. But I think much of that excess has been addressed (as best as possible) in the CHS mod. Or at least I've been led to believe as much.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Why don't you focus your efforts on creating a macro design document instead of infighting.

Re-writing WitP from scratch without an AI with a proper design document is about 2 months worth of work.

There are at least 5 people in this forum with the coding skills, given a proper design to kick out the game. There are plenty of people with the graphics skills for the UI.

Make it your hobby.

I'd settle for a .pdf editor so the manual could be decently rewritten. That alone would be a huge chore, but it is something that's been sorely needed from scratch, and I'm qualified.

As for rewriting WitP itself: why doesn't Matrix simply make the code public?

[Ron Saueracker]

I'm into playing with Tris as Allies vs a duo of IJ experten. The challenge has been placed out there by the staunch supporters of WITP for the critics of WITP to put up or shut up. This is a game to highlight the good and bad of WITP so it is a design analysis oriented test match. Of course, winning is of interest too considering the two Allied players are Jimmy Cagney and Edward G Robinson.[:)]


I can play a disgustingly massive volume of turns right now too (hopefully so can Tristan). Keep that in mind for those players willing to play as Japan.[8D]

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm into playing with Tris as Allies vs a duo of IJ experten. The challenge has been placed out there by the staunch supporters of WITP for the critics of WITP to put up or shut up. This is a game to highlight the good and bad of WITP so it is a design analysis oriented test match. Of course, winning is of interest too considering the two Allied players are Jimmy Cagney and Edward G Robinson.[:)]

Hi, Right you want to prove there is too much supply for Japan, Bombardments too easy, Zero bonus too much, and what not and to prove it your going to play....the Allies.[X(]

Been there done that. TJ wanted to prove you could not conduct landing in UV historic so he played the Allies and did nothing historic while I sent exactly the number of aircraft and the exact shipsto the exact base on the exact date and when it failed to produce the historic result It was my fault. (The USN CA were not even covering the transports or set to react)

You must prove what you claim not try to make me do it. I don't agree with it so how can I prove it. Prove it to me by showing me. You do it. You take the SRA supply and score an auto victory over me. You know I will try all I can to prevent that from occuring. Get Oleg to help you. While he does not agree with you he is a master Japanese and "owns" me. I'll get Tom Hunter. He seems to know what he is doing and it does not matter what he thinks I don't think he would ever try to rig the outcome Or Kereguelen he would drive you nuts. Almost every claim made by you two is refuted in his game. I'd like to learn how he does it. Wouldn't you like to see the game played by someone who knows how to play it as designed with no funny business or wild results? They are out there. But your not listening to them.

[Mr.Frag]

As for rewriting WitP itself: why doesn't Matrix simply make the code public?

Cause it's their code. Thats a nice cop out by the way. [8|]

Having read all your posts, the general tact has always been it is total crap so why on earth would you want to start with their code? [:D]

Fixing someone elses code is always 100 times more difficult then writing a new design from scratch and coding it properly.

Design drives code, code does not drive design. Anyone who tries to write code without a sound design is a hack, not a developer and generally produces nothing in the end. [:-]

Do it this way and in the end, it IS open source which is what everyone seems to want.

Maps are public domain, Unit information is public domain, History is public domain. What do you need 2by3 for?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm into playing with Tris as Allies vs a duo of IJ experten. The challenge has been placed out there by the staunch supporters of WITP for the critics of WITP to put up or shut up. This is a game to highlight the good and bad of WITP so it is a design analysis oriented test match. Of course, winning is of interest too considering the two Allied players are Jimmy Cagney and Edward G Robinson.[:)]

Hi, Right you want to prove there is too much supply for Japan, Bombardments too easy, Zero bonus too much, and what not and to prove it your going to play....the Allies.[X(]

Been there done that. TJ wanted to prove you could not conduct landing in UV historic so he played the Allies and did nothing historic while I sent exactly the number of aircraft and the exact shipsto the exact base on the exact date and when it failed to produce the historic result It was my fault. (The USN CA were not even covering the transports or set to react)

You must prove what you claim not try to make me do it. I don't agree with it so how can I prove it. Prove it to me by showing me. You do it. You take the SRA supply and score an auto victory over me. You know I will try all I can to prevent that from occuring. Get Oleg to help you. While he does not agree with you he is a master Japanese and "owns" me. I'll get Tom Hunter. He seems to know what he is doing and it does not matter what he thinks I don't think he would ever try to rig the outcome

I want to say that the Allies have way to much supply early on as well. Just look at our old AAR and find the supply pics. Just a few months in and most main bases in India, Australia were at half a million or even in some cases max out at 999,999! All we have to do is post the logistics info for everyone to see and they can make their own conclusions. We don't have to switch hit here to prove a point. Anyway, there are a whack of expert Japanese players out there and that is what is needed to illustrate excess supply. I noticed you still have not posted your fuel/supply levels in the game vs Tom Hunter where you claim you have shortages.

This is also not just about supply but a host of issues. Auto victory is rather meaningless to me.

[mogami]

Hi, was I supposed to post the totals? I was never asked for them but recently did a email breakdown of fuel status. Why don't you
add up the total fuel required for all Japanese ships and submarines to refuel one time 100 percent. Then we can divide that number into Japanese starting fuel and there you go. You'd know beyond all dispute how many times Japan can refuel before she runs out providing all fuel is kept at base where it does not just waste away. (I really roll on floor when told a size 1 port can be used to refuel TF. first it won't load anything larger then 5in no torps and the suppy and fuel will waste faster then the ships can use it. )

[Nikademus]

How you been Frag?

(btw...i agree with Mogami....i would love to see this AAR with TJ and Ron as IJN given the littany of complaints towards that side)

[:D]

[mogami]

Hi, I don't understand the logic. If you claim something exists and are doubted you should prove it exists not ask the doubters to prove it. As for Allied supply. Does it matter if SF and Karachi have 999,9999 supply? It does not travel to Burma from Karachi unless you load it on a transport. And then it does not move very far unless you load it on a transport or fly it. What good does 999,999 supply in SF do the Allied player?

The only way this would impact pace of game is if he transported it to tarawa in Jan 1942 so the Japanese could capture it. You keep forgetting that supply is also everything used by LCU (all the tanks and guns and such and replacement aircraft) everytime a LCU adds to it's TOE it is expending supply. This supply does not add a whit to combat ratio if normal and combat supply are not present but it does account for the cost of the item and the space used to transport it from SF or Karcahi to where it is added to air group or LCU or repairs that broken radar set. (in effect it was not a supply point at all but instead it was a box of flux capacitors)

Stop being so narrow minded. If it takes 1 supply point to repair a 105mm AA gun it is not 1 supply point being consumed but 1 load point of your transport all the way from SF to repair location and 1 supply point. The load point is the actual item need to repair or a new gun. The supply consumed in addition to this load cost is the price of the repair or new item. (You always think simply 1 supply but 1 supply cannot be 3 things. There is normal supply without it units die. There is combat supply without units cannot fight and there is supply to repair replace items. Without it units grow weaker over time. Since there are 3 kinds of supply and all 3 are required for success there is simply no such thing as supply that converts by magic. Your staff arrange for load space on transports. Back in USA item was produced once it converts or repair a TOE item it can't be eaten or fired at an airfield. Do you really want to complicate the system by having to send each and every single item and aircraft and food and ammo? The system being an Operantional game gives you a staff that always has what you need provided you can transport it safely. Thats all you have to do. Ask "can I get it there?" If the answer is yes then excess supply in SF means nothing. If you can get it there then it will be there in any game you design or where you place it. The only way to prevent this is to simply remove it from game period. (oh thats what your doing) SO rather then make the players conduct operations that answer the questions "can I get it there" "can he get it there" your just makig the answer "there is none" well that will slow the game down. If I was playig it would be 1 turn every never.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

How you been Frag?

(btw...i agree with Mogami....i would love to see this AAR with TJ and Ron as IJN given the littany of complaints towards that side)

[:D]

It is not vs one side! Get that straight. Everything I complain about or criticise has the same impact for either side. Foir the last time this is not a fanboy issue.

Mogami

Hi, I don't understand the logic. If you claim something exists and are doubted you should prove it exists not ask the doubters to prove it. As for Allied supply. Does it matter if SF and Karachi have 999,9999 supply? It does not travel to Burma from Karachi unless you load it on a transport. And then it does not move very far unless you load it on a transport or fly it. What good does 999,999 supply in SF do the Allied player?

The only way this would impact pace of game is if he transported it to tarawa in Jan 1942 so the Japanese could capture it. You keep forgetting that supply is also everything used by LCU (all the tanks and guns and such and replacement aircraft) everytime a LCU adds to it's TOE it is expending supply. This supply does not add a whit to combat ratio if normal and combat supply are not present but it does account for the cost of the item and the space used to transport it from SF or Karcahi to where it is added to air group or LCU or repairs that broken radar set.

As above, it is the same for both sides. During the early months Japan is on the move so supply should be an issue. During the latter half of 42 the Allies begin to counter attack historically and supply was and should be an issue as well. In neither case is supply an issue for a host of reasons posted ad nauseum over that last few years. The best way to test this is for players expert in a given side to play that side. Post the supply levels once a week or so and voila. When your supply is too low you will not be able to fly around all over the map. Period. This game has been a chore up to now, why should it continue to be for this AAR?

Again, this is not just about supply, it is about the entire game design.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I want to say that the Allies have way to much supply early on as well. Just look at our old AAR and find the supply pics. Just a few months in and most main bases in India, Australia were at half a million or even in some cases max out at 999,999! All we have to do is post the logistics info for everyone to see and they can make their own conclusions. We don't have to switch hit here to prove a point. Anyway, there are a whack of expert Japanese players out there and that is what is needed to illustrate excess supply. I noticed you still have not posted your fuel/supply levels in the game vs Tom Hunter where you claim you have shortages.

This is also not just about supply but a host of issues. Auto victory is rather meaningless to me.

Allies having too much supply? Well, in my game vs. Mogami (currently 28th January 1943) the only bases with 999,999 supply and fuel is Karachi. And I'm quite busy transporting supplies and fuel to my forward bases (this is the reason why even SF and LA currently do not have 999,999). Sure, my major bases in Australia and elsewhere have enough supplies and fuel for my current needs, but ostensibly supply demands will vastly increase once I start a big counteroffensive somewhere. Most of my AK's and TK's are always busy (unless they repair sys damage) transporting supplies and fuel around and I do not waste anything by allowing spoilage to occurr. It seems to me that I'll be able to make good use of every AK that arrives in the future (and I've not lost many till now). And no, supply levels are certainly not too low, I've certainly enough supplies and fuel. But I'm quite sure that there will be some local shortages in the future. I see no need to reduce supplies and fuel for the Allies - and if Karachi, Bombay and the WC ports are full - so what? The stuff is of use elsewhere mostly. One could discuss transport capacities, but I don't see any real problem with the amount of Allied supply in the game!