Allied Aircraft (last chance to add new planes)

[el cid again]

The squadrons that were meant to be part of Tiger Force were combined into groups ("Wings") to make some space in the air group database. So that is why you don't see the individual squadrons. They are all there (including No.9 and No.617) as part of these larger formations.

They are all "there" only in the sense of being listed. Since these units only appear in October 1945, they are virtually never going to enter play.
And they cannot be used from India when they could have been used and, apparently, were actually used. I do not see why a player who gets them earlier cannot transfer them to join Tiger Force if the war lasts long enough? And I also do not understand why the wing that commanded them in India could not also transfer. This never happened - but IF the Tiger Force had stood up clearly these units would have transferred. Don't you think the wing did too? Why are they NOT in India earlier?

And why is the Lincoln which essentially was never built (those that were are not bombers) present at all? Does not this represent a slot we can free up? Do you think the Mark I (F.E.) which eventually was built and which did go to the Far East post war - should be used?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
They are all "there" only in the sense of being listed. Since these units only appear in October 1945, they are virtually never going to enter play.
And they cannot be used from India when they could have been used and, apparently, were actually used. I do not see why a player who gets them earlier cannot transfer them to join Tiger Force if the war lasts long enough? And I also do not understand why the wing that commanded them in India could not also transfer. This never happened - but IF the Tiger Force had stood up clearly these units would have transferred. Don't you think the wing did too?

I am not sure what you mean. Each Wing replaces three squadrons. As mentioned this was done to make some space in the air group file. The same thing has been done with the B-29 squadrons, which have also been combined into Groups. There is now not enough room to separately represent all of the Tiger Force squadrons (or the B-29 squadrons).

Why are they NOT in India earlier?

I didn't set the dates for the arrival of Tiger Force, so I cannot answer that question, but it may be that they do arrive a bit later than they should. The current dates are spread between October and December 1945, whereas I have seen one comment stating that they were meant to arrive between August and November. So it may be that they should be arriving a little earlier.

And why is the Lincoln which essentially was never built (those that were are not bombers) present at all?

It was intended to include Lincoln bombers in Tiger Force, which is why they have been included.

Does not this represent a slot we can free up? Do you think the Mark I (F.E.) which eventually was built and which did go to the Far East post war - should be used?

We could use the MkI (FE) or the MkVII (FE). I decided on the MkVII, but I am not sure which would have been the most numerous type, or whether there is enough of a difference between the two models to worry about it.

Andrew

[jcjordan]

Andrew/Sid

An idea for freeing up slots for CHs if not already being done - remove the Soviet I15 & I16 as the Soviet units start with the Type24 I16 anyway, don't remember about the Matrix stock versions though.

[el cid again]

An idea for freeing up slots for CHs if not already being done - remove the Soviet I15 & I16 as the Soviet units start with the Type24 I16 anyway, don't remember about the Matrix stock versions though

You forgot that CHINA uses these planes. Or some of them. I am not sure we need FIVE slots for I-15 and I -16!! Probably two will serve. Will check this out.

[el cid again]

I am not sure what you mean. Each Wing replaces three squadrons. As mentioned this was done to make some space in the air group file.

This is getting very confusing for me also. I have no idea what you mean - except theoretically. I see all these bomber units in the 177 files you sent to me. I also see plenty of free slots for Allied air units as well. Are you saying all this has changed since I sent them back? Obviously, I cannot see or know what is not in files I have a version of. I am basing my comments on either 155 or 177 - which as far as I can tell are virtually identical for Allied Air units. I am reviewing aircraft - but in the context of squadrons in the game.

IF you are saying these units were removed in favor of wings,
AND IF you are saying you don't think the two squadrons of Lancasters in India can be added during the historical war period,
I wonder if you need the Lancaster at all? I am inclined to put it in - but only if it is available when it was and where it was. Tiger Force is all fiction - planned deployments which never occurred - planned for after the atom bombs become factors - very late units that probably are not needed at all. If we followed USSBS reasoning the game would end on 1 November 1945 in any case - and if Japan is not defeated by then I regard it as having won the war.

[el cid again]

I didn't set the dates for the arrival of Tiger Force, so I cannot answer that question, but it may be that they do arrive a bit later than they should. The current dates are spread between October and December 1945, whereas I have seen one comment stating that they were meant to arrive between August and November. So it may be that they should be arriving a little earlier.

My RAF Aircraft reference article on Lancaster lists these two squadrons as Pacific Theater - and it does not list Tiger Force at all. WITP lists them with Tiger Force and I ASSUME they would have joined it - but they were already in theater and participated in fighting in Burma from NE India. I think they should be in the game. I am willing to get rid of Tiger Force altogether - although I have not done so. But the main reason to have Lancaster at all is that it is a type used DURING the war - and I see no sense in having two slots for such a late plane - so I am getting rid of Lincoln - of which only 9 were ever made - and none were bombers.

[el cid again]

We could use the MkI (FE) or the MkVII (FE). I decided on the MkVII, but I am not sure which would have been the most numerous type, or whether there is enough of a difference between the two models to worry about it.

The main production models were Mark I and Mark III. The Mark I (FE) was eventually made and even sent to the Pacific - in 1946. It is essentially re-engined Mark I and Mark IIs. Other marks were not really made in numbers, or were not bombers at all. But the biggest problem with trying to put in more than one mark is that we don't have good data for all the sub variants. The types that were not built never got to run trials, so data would be pretty iffy even if we could find it. While I do see an "electronic warfare" plane type in the database, I don't think it works for WITP (it may be for NATO - not yet done). The two units that really went to the Pacific had Mark III - and all the units that deployed before 1946 would have had to use it as well - since Mark I (FE) did not go into production (conversion actually) until about February 1946. That is so late I think it is best to stay with Mark III for everything. All I know about the Mark I (FE) is that it had different engines, and was modified to give it more range (which I assume means adding fuel tanks of some kind, and possibly reducing bomb load).

[el cid again]

There is an English source stating DO-24K has 12 hard points for 50 kg bombs.

I have added 50kg bombs as a device - permitting JAAF to use them which until now it could not - and configured DO-24K to use its historic armament. If it had hard points, it also had a bomb sight, so the accuracy will be normal. This is 600 kg of bombs - and no torpedos. Dutch sources give it less range than other sources indicate, but I am following them anyway - since they seem to be accurate in details otherwise missing in most references.

[el cid again]

I have added the allied 75 mm gun - but not yet applied it to any aircraft. It was mounted on some B-25 and some B-26 - but I need to figure out what is the best candidate - and what else changes when it is added.

[el cid again]

A test of Swordfish with 6 ASW rockets finds they are surprisingly effective. Surprising because their accuracy is 1 - due to not firing more than 1 per tube. 38% hit in strafing attacks.

I hope to learn if they work in air air combat on fighters from other tests.

I added a smaller Type 1 rocket to the A6M8 as well.

[Skyros]

The Chinese use the I-16c.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

An idea for freeing up slots for CHs if not already being done - remove the Soviet I15 & I16 as the Soviet units start with the Type24 I16 anyway, don't remember about the Matrix stock versions though

You forgot that CHINA uses these planes. Or some of them. I am not sure we need FIVE slots for I-15 and I -16!! Probably two will serve. Will check this out.

[el cid again]

Between them the Russians and the Chinese use all but one of five types of I-15 and I-16.

I 16 Type 24 is not used.

IL-2 and IL-2M are not used.

IL-4 is not used.

LaGG-3 is not used.

MiG-3 is not used.

YAK-1/3 & 5 are not used.

Any reason to keep them? Is the air OB wrong for any of these?

[el cid again]

The B-26A is used with torpedoes historically - at Midway and with effect in the SW Pacific area.

The B-25H is used late in the war with the 75mm gun. An earlier version also had it - but it was a heavier gun and not successful. The B-25 also carried 8 rockets late in the war.

I hope to create slots for B-26A and B-25H - and possibly a US 5 inch rocket - this latter will be hard unless there are more air ordnance slots.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
My RAF Aircraft reference article on Lancaster lists these two squadrons as Pacific Theater - and it does not list Tiger Force at all. WITP lists them with Tiger Force and I ASSUME they would have joined it - but they were already in theater and participated in fighting in Burma from NE India.

What do your sources say were the arrival dates for No.9 and No.617 squadrons in India?

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
I wonder if you need the Lancaster at all? I am inclined to put it in - but only if it is available when it was and where it was. Tiger Force is all fiction - planned deployments which never occurred - planned for after the atom bombs become factors - very late units that probably are not needed at all.

Since the CHS scenario can run up to March 1946, the scenario includes all forces that would realistically have participated in the war if it had actually lasted that long. That is why Tiger Force is included in CHS, and will remain so.

This is not taken to the extreme though - only forces that would have been present by the end of 1945 are actually included. Anything that would have arrived later than that is not included, even if it may have been in action by March 1946.

Andrew

[Hipper]

I had not realised one was still flying


00007 Sea Hurricane
Oldest airworthy Hawker Hurricane in the world. Sea Hurricane Z7015 is owned and operated by the Shuttleworth Trust. Orginally built as a Mk1, after service with the RAF it was converted for Naval use with the addition of an arrestor hook. The aircraft flew with No 880 Squadron Fleet Air Arm during 1941 but when the squadron embarked on HMS Indomitable Z7015 was absent. Her individual squadro letter is unknown, so when the "7" code number was applied to the restored aircraft the code letter 'L' was added in honour of David Lee (deputy Director, as was, IWM Duxford)contribution.

[sspahr]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The B-26A is used with torpedoes historically - at Midway and with effect in the SW Pacific area.

When did B-26's use torpedoes in the SW pacific?

I found this on the net http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avb26.html :

Four Marauders were used in the torpedo-bomber role at the Battle of Midway in June 1942, scoring no hits and losing two of their number. Torpedo-carrying Marauders attacked the Japanese carrier RYUJO off the Aleutians the same day, but no hits were scored. These were the first and last times the Marauder saw combat with the USAAF as a torpedo bomber.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Between them the Russians and the Chinese use all but one of five types of I-15 and I-16.

I 16 Type 24 is not used.

IL-2 and IL-2M are not used.

IL-4 is not used.

LaGG-3 is not used.

MiG-3 is not used.

YAK-1/3 & 5 are not used.

Any reason to keep them? Is the air OB wrong for any of these?

Umm what are you saying here? It doesn't make sense...

[el cid again]

What do your sources say were the arrival dates for No.9 and No.617 squadrons in India?

Nothing except they participated in operations in 1944 over Burma.
I assume that implies a 1944 arrival date. Probably we can find a unit history - but except for Japan and USA I do not have detail unit histories on a comprehensive basis.

[el cid again]

Since the CHS scenario can run up to March 1946, the scenario includes all forces that would realistically have participated in the war if it had actually lasted that long. That is why Tiger Force is included in CHS, and will remain so.

This is not taken to the extreme though - only forces that would have been present by the end of 1945 are actually included. Anything that would have arrived later than that is not included, even if it may have been in action by March 1946.

I had a number of discussions about this with Joe - who opposes virtually all late war units. I took the position that CHS should be what you say here it is. Unfortunately it isn't. For example, most Japanese ships that would have completed are not present, but Allied ships are even into 1946. And the same can be said for air units. I want to add the Japanese ships - and you even said I could - but there are no slots at all for them to go in. [But there are hundreds of slots devoted to auxiliary minesweepers and subchasers armed with on .30 cal, and falsely rated as equal to real MS and SC - and similar things.] This is something I hope to address - but having been diverted from dealing with ships - I have not yet done so except to define the missing submarines (which I think matter) and surface ships (which may not matter).