Victory conditions I'd like to test.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Gotta agree here (choke!)

Wow, that's the second time you've had to agree with me... Are you ill?

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

"any comments on the bombing campaign thus far..."

Mog, I would normally afford the respect of not being a a smart-a$$, but considering your own provocative tone towards Derrek...


-F-

Hi, OK I'll watch myself. I'm not intending to be provocative. I'm trying to show that bombing does work. I'd have to look at your files before reaching any conclusion on why the Allied player in your game is having no success.
Historically Iwo Jima was needed to provide fighter escort as well as emergancy landing.

Bombing is not a do all end all answer to Allied plans. It is part of a cumlative effort on their part. In order to reduce Japanese air defense the Allies need to
1. Cut off Japanese Home Islands from imports
2. Attack Home Island supply production.
3. Provide long range escorts.
4. attrit the Japanese airforces every place possible.

[Nikademus]

You don't need to convince me at least [;)]

I disabled half of Tokyo's entire naval shipyard capacity in one B-29 attack....and that using my mod with heavy AA protecting it. Once the 29's get in range of the HI's....watch out.

[X(]

[Feinder]

I'm trying to show that bombing does work. I'd have to look at your files before reaching any conclusion on why the Allied player in your game is having no success.

If I had to say...

1. He doesn't own Oki. No escorts = Bad news for his bombers. Top of my head, his flights come in at about 40+ bombers. I usually sortie about 100+ fighters at each hot-spot. There is usually a turn or two with 3 raids. His bombers get pummeled. They stand down for a 3 - 4 days.
2. Both he and I have stock experience squadrons. His bombers are porbably about 60 exp. My fighters are about 40. It's not because I have great pilots intercepting him from some rigorous trainging program. Frankly, I'm surprised at the effectiveness of my fighters.
4. My fighter losses vs. his B-29s is about 1:4 (top of my head). As in, for every 4x B-29s I kill, I lose about 1 fighter. Seems pretty high to me.
5. With no escorts, even the damages are effective, as the planes turn back, and rarely abody drops bombs.

Certainly, no fighter escort is his biggest problem. With escorts, my fighters probably couldn't touch his bombers (I regularly lose 150 planes vs. USN CVs, and few losses for him). But I think his bomber losses are severely inflated to begin with, I don't think I should be so effective in downing planes, much less turning back the flights.

Don't get me wrong. I think Oli is prosecuting as well as the game allows. I think the issue is the effectiveness of my fighters vs. his bombers. Historically, the B-29 were -not- dropped in great number by Japanese fighters. They had more ops losses, and secondly flak. Yes, fighter escorts were useful to mitigate the fighter threat, but historically, the fighter threat is not close to what it is in WitP.

However, to add hemmoraging to the injury, it would take a revamp of the strat bombing effectiveness, before I actually felt it's effects. In Campaign '45, everything starts pristine (maybe that's historical, couldn't tell you in game terms). If the goal is to make me FEEL the damage to industry say by, April '45 (to make it painful by August 45), that's not even close to happening, even if he had destroyed say 15% of my industry. I'm just not sure that bombing hte industry would matter to begin with. I've got lots of planes in the pools (and I haven't touched production). I don't know what the historical comparison would be, but he'd have to close all of my strat production in about 3 weeks, for me to "feel" it by July, and that's not going to happen.

[Nikademus]

Has he tried attacking at night?

[Feinder]

Has he tried attacking at night?

Not that I recall. I don't recall us having house rules forbidding it either. You're right, that that would probably reduce his air-to-air losses considerably, and might be more effective. I rarely use night bombing as allies tho, so I don't know if it'll be any more or less effective for him.

I'll pass on as something for him to try tho.

Kinda seems silly, "Hey Oli, I know you're trying to kill me. Try this..!"

[:D]

-F-

[mogami]

Hi, I just damaged 441 HI at Nagoya in 1 day.

[Nikademus]

no problem....thats only 441,000 supply points to fix. [:'(]

[mogami]

Hi, 1 Apr 45
Japanese Strategic Loss 7960 (3476 VP from bombing in March)
B-29 lost 166 (50-50 AA/Ops) 2/3 of OPS crews recovered.

393rd NBS on map (saipan) no bombs in inventory.

39427 VP required for victory (3286 per month)

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Does it really matter whether it's damaged or destroyed?

Destruction is supposed to be worth substantially more VP.

There is also the matter of the players being told, via the documentation, that this is how the game works. I at least would like to know if this is yet another deliberate lie to us by the developers. So, yes, it matters.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

no problem....thats only 441,000 supply points to fix. [:'(]

and 441 days......[X(]

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Does it really matter whether it's damaged or destroyed?

Destruction is supposed to be worth substantially more VP.

There is also the matter of the players being told, via the documentation, that this is how the game works. I at least would like to know if this is yet another deliberate lie to us by the developers. So, yes, it matters.

Hi, The manual clearly states bombing only does damage. A damaged target is a detroyed target untill it is repaired.

For example I just bombed Toyama (14 Mar 45) 439 resource (out of 900) was damaged.
It is destroyed (it no longer functions) It will cost 439,000 supply and take 439 days for Japan to repair (build again) that lost resource. You can't destroy the potentional of a hex but you can destroy is actual ability to function. Toyama will never again produce 900 resource.

Why do you act like you've been lied to? The manual came with the game.

[Nikademus]

Why do you act like you've been lied to? The manual came with the game

must be a conspiracy

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Does it really matter whether it's damaged or destroyed?

Destruction is supposed to be worth substantially more VP.

There is also the matter of the players being told, via the documentation, that this is how the game works. I at least would like to know if this is yet another deliberate lie to us by the developers. So, yes, it matters.

Hi, The manual clearly states bombing only does damage. A damaged target is a detroyed target untill it is repaired.

For example I just bombed Toyama (14 Mar 45) 439 resource (out of 900) was damaged.
It is destroyed (it no longer functions) It will cost 439,000 supply and take 439 days for Japan to repair (build again) that lost resource. You can't destroy the potentional of a hex but you can destroy is actual ability to function. Toyama will never again produce 900 resource.

Why do you act like you've been lied to? The manual came with the game.

Page 200, section 16.0 Victory Conditions, bullet point "Industry damage": Two VPs per point damaged, 20 VPs per point destroyed (an item destroyed when damaged will yield 18 more VPs). Industry can only be destroyed by firestorms and A-bombs, but can be damaged by any type of attack (including firestorms and A-bombs).

Yes, the manual came with the game. It is also wrong more often than it is right in describing the functionality of the program. Wrong far too often to be just a matter of "last minute changes", is smacks of deliberate misleading of the consumers/players.

[mogami]

Hi, OK lets see. I'll firestorm Tokyo and see what happens.

Toyama down to 244 resource

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/17/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Toyama , at 65,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 288


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged

Resources hits 143

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Toyama , at 65,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 279


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Resources hits 167

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
32 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

[mogami]

Hi, I have not been keeping track so I'll do the exact status of Tokyo before I commence "Operation Firestorm"

Tokyo 19 Apr 45
Manpower 110
HI (1008)/372
Resource (660)/240
Naval 280
Merchant 250
Repair 71
Arms 150
Vehicle 25
OscarII 119
Thora 5
Hickory 32
Sonia 18
Judy 8
Ida 29
Nakajima (24)/226
Hitachi 120
Ishikawajima 20
Nissan 10

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/22/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 215


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 18 damaged

Manpower hits 453

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet


17300 fires in Tokyo

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/23/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 291


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 destroyed, 17 damaged

Manpower hits 381

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
47 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

15923 fires

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/24/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 138


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 13 damaged

Manpower hits 300

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 135


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 16 damaged

Manpower hits 287

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

21309 fires

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/25/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 144


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 14 damaged

Manpower hits 229

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
21 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

8663 fires

I'm going to target vechicles to see what effect fiestorms have on factories that are already damaged.

April bombing has score 2840 VP

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/28/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 176


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 11 damaged

Armament Assembly hits 45

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 115


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 12 damaged

Vehicle Assembly hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
47 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

1 vehicle remains undamaged
46 arms undamaged.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/29/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 144


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 destroyed, 14 damaged

Armament Assembly hits 41

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
26 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 93


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 8 damaged

Vehicle Assembly hits 6

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
21 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

1 vehicle
26 arms undamaged

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/30/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 201


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 13 damaged

Vehicle Assembly hits 57

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

1 vehicle
5 Arms undamaged

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/01/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo , at 66,43


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 106


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 12 damaged

Vehicle Assembly hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
31 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

crap I can't damage that last vehicle. Will start a fire now (bombing the vehicles and arms was worth 346 VP)

[Hortlund]

Ok, so now Im confused. How exactly does that work?

Tokyo had 110 manpower.

You hit it four times for 453, 381, 300 and 287 manpower hits. What happens to the additional hits? Do they "spill over" into some other category?

[mogami]

Hi, No There is 110 manpower points. Each B-29 hit does an amount of damage to these points. It might take more then 1 bomb hit to damage 1 manpower point. But most important in order to start a fire you bomb manpower (the houses) Those fires were produced by manpower hits whether or not they damaged a manpower point.

[Hortlund]

Ok, and these fires in turn damage other stuff in the same hex...like industry or factories?

[Feinder]

So what what the damage/permantent damage to the industry...?

20k fire sounds impressive, but from my own testing, I remember it being "not all that" in the amount actual damage done.

And a reminder of the obvious, your tests are vs. zero CAP. Put a 150 - 200 fighters up, and you'll see a dramatic

a. increase in your losses
b. reduction of your damage done
c. reduction of your ability to launch repeated attacks (which also means your fires all but go out every turn).

-F-