RHS 5 & 6.758 comprehensive update uploaded/frozen/final?

[Dili]

The normal unit upgrades to

G3M2
G4M1
G4M2m22
G4M2e
P1Y1
 
That is the normal path and i have that here, but for that specific units i said they are greyed out. Are you saying that suddenly the no-update can change to update? i have never saw that behavior in the game.

[el cid again]

No. I am saying that these units are not greyed out - unless something is wrong. I looked up your units and they all upgrade.

There are two possibilities - and I mentioned both:

1) It is correct behavior and your units are not permitted to upgrade for some reason (the code is conducting "tests" GG is so fond of and your units don't pass one of them)

2) It is a bad file set in some sense (game, scenario, something).

I cannot replicate the problem in any scenario at any level. It isn't in source on a working system. So the problem - whatever it is - is local. That is useful information - offered to help you figure out the problem. Often - usually - I can duplicate a problem and fix it. If I can't it is good news - it means that the problem can be solved with a clean install - if broken - or otherwise that it isn't present except in a wierd game situation - which you won't often see (if it is a result of code working as designed to work).

[Dili]

okay thx  i'll wait for next 6.422 to see if it continues that way.

[el cid again]

This is turning into a major radar revision. But there are no more technical problems - just messed up Allied ships - and I will release this very soon. I am not working on anything else - and I will not sleep until it is done - so we can move on.

And thanks for asking for the radar review - it was much more a problem than anyone realized. Lots of it go back to stock - most of it is a lack of taking time to get it right (by everyone including me) - and some of it was made worse by the way I introduced the SK to the set. It is going to be a lot more correct now - and better modeled as well.
We will now have

land based early warning radar
long range air search radar
medium range / backup air search radar
short range (for subs and small ships) air warning radar
basic surface search radar
enhanced surface search radar

And these from three countries - US, UK and Japan.

Not bad.

[m10bob]

FWIW, Guadalcanal Americans did not have ground radar till October '42, (and the Japanese supposedly knew about it as soon as it showed up.) I have not checked the game to see if it shows up there at that time or not..(This was from Walter Lord's book "LONELY VIGIL"..)

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

FWIW, Guadalcanal Americans did not have ground radar till October '42, (and the Japanese supposedly knew about it as soon as it showed up.) I have not checked the game to see if it shows up there at that time or not..(This was from Walter Lord's book "LONELY VIGIL"..)

And IRL a JAPANESE radar was CAPTURED on Guadalcanal - so it was there first. It was the first set we ever got to look at. We were astonished - we had no idea Japan had ANY radar - much less had independently invented the cavity magnetron. Many books still claim it was a "secret advantage" of the West - invented in France - given to UK and then US in that order. But Japan also had it. And early.

[el cid again]

Lots and lots of Allied radar problems. Some Brit cruisers have nice suites - but become virtually unique classes.

[Dili]

No doubt, it was in it's infancy. From the Cruiser Bible the Japanese also had  diference even from a Mk IV to Mk V of same set.

[Mifune]

"had independently invented the cavity magnetron" In fact with the technology exchanges with Germany, Japan had recieved radar technology from the Germans. Japan never bothered to mention the cavity magnetron since Japan assumed the Germans already had it already since the Germans seem so far ahead.

[Mifune]

"And IRL a JAPANESE radar was CAPTURED on Guadalcanal" I thought that the Japanese also captured a Brit radar set in Singapore?

[TulliusDetritus]

Mifune, if I remember correctly, I think the radar captured in Singapore was on the French ship Normandie (a radar for detecting icebergs).

P.S.:
back to "civilization", by the way. Where's me 7.0? [:)]

[Mifune]

That is not the same set that I am thinking of. I seem to remember them capturing a land based air search set. Which they "copied" which is there first production air search set. Later on in the war when the Allies captured one of those Japanese sets. They investigated its inner works, they had realized that was just a crude copy of by then an older Allied set. I will see if I can remember the source once I get back home from work.

[Mifune]

As far as level 7 goes, one will have to wait till the current issues are resolved. Cid is focused on resolving the radar issue once and for all. This also means that the ship database needs to be reviewed as well. Then level 6 should hopefully be considered final which is when level 7 work will continue. BTW level 7 has only to resolve map (and its pwhex) for its completion. Of course that is a time consuming process. Cid has said the level 7 scenario files are basically done (once the current radar issue is resolved).

[TulliusDetritus]

No, you don't need to check your sources. My memory failed this time [:)] The Normandie was not captured in Singapore, I think. Although that radar was the first one the Japanese saw. But you are indeed correct: the British radar captured after the fall of Singapore was decisive. The radar on the Normandie + German vague information about electromagnetic detection (after Matapan) alone were not enough.

P.S.:
no, wait. the Normandie was NOT captured. But somehow, the Japanese knew, studied her radar.

http://members.tripod.com/~lch4/normandie.html

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mifune

"And IRL a JAPANESE radar was CAPTURED on Guadalcanal" I thought that the Japanese also captured a Brit radar set in Singapore?

Yep. And they did NOT recognize the term "Yagi Antenna" as being of Japanese origin - although it was invented by Dr Yagi - a Japanese radiation physicist.

But my point was that the Americans believed Japan had no radar at all. On the first B-29 raid on Japan - out of India - crossing China - a ESM fitted plane counted about 135 radar stations.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mifune

That is not the same set that I am thinking of. I seem to remember them capturing a land based air search set. Which they "copied" which is there first production air search set. Later on in the war when the Allies captured one of those Japanese sets. They investigated its inner works, they had realized that was just a crude copy of by then an older Allied set. I will see if I can remember the source once I get back home from work.

This sounds like confusion of two different things captured at Singapore. The 40mm Bofors was captured there - and indeed was "copied" - and put into production. But not as is - it was "improved" - over a long period - and went into production too late to matter - with only trivial improvements.

Radar was developed in secret by EVERY maritime power - before WWII - including Germany, Japan, France, Russia, Britain and the USA. The Japanese had two entirely different and unrelated radar lines - Army and Navy. A worker on one line was forbidden even to speak to a worker on the other! This did eventually change - Japanese submarines finally got radar - an adapted Army set! - but that was well into the war. There is no evidence I am aware of that any entire radar was ever copied - and Japanese radar is so different from Allied it would be pretty clear if this was not the case. Frankly, Japanese radar is based on lower power transmitters, and generally lower gain recievers, and other issues which make it impractical to copy a radar - unless they somehow could copy the basic parts (e.g. pentodes).

What IS stated (in the US FM Handbook on Japanese Forces - I think) is that Japan used US vacuum tubes. Copies of early triodes and diodes mostly. Similarly, RADIOs, while generally developed in Japan, also included some copied models. Perhaps this is causing confusion?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

No, you don't need to check your sources. My memory failed this time [:)] The Normandie was not captured in Singapore, I think. Although that radar was the first one the Japanese saw. But you are indeed correct: the British radar captured after the fall of Singapore was decisive. The radar on the Normandie + German vague information about electromagnetic detection (after Matapan) alone were not enough.

P.S.:
no, wait. the Normandie was NOT captured. But somehow, the Japanese knew, studied her radar.

http://members.tripod.com/~lch4/normandie.html

Normandie was "captured" (interned) by the US! And it may have been sabotaged in New York harbor - otherwise it really burned by accident. Tied with the two Queens (Mary and Elizabeth) as the biggest ship in the world. I have no idea how the Japanese might get her radar! Purchase it from the maker?

The idea Japan needed to see a foreign radar - or get German data on radar - to be interested in radar is very common - and quite wrong. Japan had an early electromatnetic theorist - the Dr Yagi mentioned above - inventer of a most efficient antenna system easily built. He is described generally as "overambitious" - attempthing things "too far ahead of the state of the art" - e.g. power transmission by radio waves. But he laid one of the technical foundations for Japanese radar development - actually before just about anyone else anywhere else did anything similar. [You can look to Tesla if you like - a somewhat similar visionary - in the US - also more interested in power than detection - but who proposed a radio detection system to save ships bound by fog. There was an operating radio detection system to detect ships on some merchant ships before World War I - not exactly a radar - and you got only a ringing bell as "signal" or "display"!! But not much. The famous Watson Watt stuff is later in time.] Two other technical threads - not particularly related by foreign developments unless reading scientific journals counts as that -
led to quite separate Navy and Army developments - almost unrelated to Dr Yagi's work except that they had to buy their equipment from Mitsubishi - a civil concern which used students of Dr Yagi in its development team.

Japan differed little from us in this regard. Senior officers and officials didn't understand radar, were not particularly inclined to push it, and we were given a great deal of help by the British (who in turn got help from the French and even the Dutch) - "before the war began" from our point of view - based on early WWII events and developments.
We did have a scientific body and we did eventually create a major research organization at MIT - but that was later.
Japan had a similar scientific body - but it had a great deal on its plate - including atomic research (originally for power - aircraft and ship propulsion and "to run great machines" ashore). There was no great appreciation of what foreign radar was up to - or capable of - and so - instead of being driven by knowledge of it - it might be better to say Japanese radar didn't get much priority due to ignorance of it.

It is usually said - almost universally said - that Japan's industry was too small - and it could not compete. But I find the numbers of sets produced - when they got around to producing them - is remarkably similar to the US. One AI set numbered 6000. Tachikawa early warning radar production is very similar to ours - particularly if you consider that our production fed more than PTO. And so on. What really hurt Japan was that each service would draft people from civil industry serving the other service - regardless of how important they were to that industry. So the industry suffered very badly from a talent drain which was substantially unnecessary.

[el cid again]

I am finging massive and gross changes to Allied naval units. Investigating radar, I found ships appearing months - or a year - too late in time. I found ships running at 20 knots that should cruise at 14 - and doing so with a lot less fuel than they really needed to run at 14. I found ships without radar that had nice suites (e.g. Hawkins class), and ships that were given radars which never got any (including 2 US battleships). I found no instance of any submarine (and cross checking in any mod) which as both AS and SS radar - but now many do. Ships often were given their late war AA suites too early - and too much radar and/or the wrong kinds of radar - but not often did ships have backup radars later in the war when IRL they did.

The revisions are big enough to justify bumping the version number. This is a different game. It is not wholly clear what it means? But in general the Allies are not going to intercept at such great distances from naval units. The numbers of air search radars at sea are greatly reduced - while the numbers of surface search radars greatly increased - and both somewhat more delayed in time. This may make surface battles more deadly - making targets easier to find. It may mean players need to pay attention to their ships with AS radar - many cruisers and battleships lack any at all - and those that have it may be valuable assets in task groups subject to air attack. Regardless of the impacts - we try to get the data right.

[Mifune]

"This sounds like confusion of two different things captured at Singapore." You might be correct in regards to copying, though I was correct in one aspect. This is taken from a web source (I am a too tired to scan through some books) "Well prior to World War II, Japan had knowledgeable researchers in the technologies necessary for radar but due to lack of appreciation of radar's potential, and rivalry between army, navy and civilian research groups, Japanese technology was 3 to 5 years behind that of the US during the war. The Japanese captured a British type gun laying radar in Singapore as well as an American SCR-268 and SCR-270 when they overran the Philippines."

[Mifune]

"Yep. And they did NOT recognize the term "Yagi Antenna" as being of Japanese origin - although it was invented by Dr Yagi - a Japanese radiation physicist." This (the reference term Yagi in this case) was from notes taken from 2 Canadian radar operators captured at Singapore. Imagine the shame when the Japanese found out the Allies were already using technology that was originally developed by a Japanese, of which they the Japanese had not been using.