AE Map, Base, Economic Issues [OUTDATED]

[Dutch_slith]

@ Andrew

production of crude oil in the DEI in 1940 (in 1.000kg)

West Java 24
Midden Java 136.469 (Tjepoe)
Oost Java 703.001 (Soerabaja)
Palembang 3.077.557
Djambi 1.210.398 (the oil was pipelined to Palembang)
Oostkust Sumatra 156.488 (Pangkalanbrandan and Pangkalansoesoe)
Atjeh 764.488 (Lho Semawe, Lokop and Koeala Simpang)
Borneo 1.793.148 (Balikpapan, Samarinda and Tarakan; the oil near Samarinda was pipelined to Balikpapan)
Ceram 93.231 (Boela)
Nieuw Guinea 4410 (Babo; oil field still under development in 1941)

oil refineries were available at Pangkalanbrandan, Tjepoe, Soerabaja (Wonokromo),
Palembang (Pladjoe and Soengei Gerong), Kapoean (near Djokjakarta) and Balikpapan

Source: A.J.Th. Boester Nederlands-Indie contra Japan volume II

Harald

[stuman]

I guess it is too late to request that Memphis, Tennessee be shown on the map [;)]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: stuman

I guess it is too late to request that Memphis, Tennessee be shown on the map [;)]

Not too late to request it. Aint happening, but never too late to ask [:D]

[Wirraway_Ace]

I have a key distance question related to distortion and hex size. Has the distance between Cooktown and Port Moresby been fixed from stock? In stock, it was 9 hexes or 540 miles (Google Earth lists it at 430). The 9 hex distance is outside the 8 hex range of a B25C/J, so the only way to hit PM from Queensland is by using 4Es (Hudsons can do it too, for all the good that does). This contributes significantly to the inability of the Allies to hold and/or reduce the base. In reality, both the B25C and J could have made the run.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: stuman

I guess it is too late to request that Memphis, Tennessee be shown on the map [;)]

Either the map would have to be made 20 hexes wider, or everything shifted 20 hexes. Most players wouldn't want to give up most of India to get more of the US. They'd probably lynch you.

Bill

[TOMLABEL]

ORIGINAL: stuman

I guess it is too late to request that Memphis, Tennessee be shown on the map [;)]

I agree with stuman, some of my relatives live in Memphis.
[:)]
TOMLABEL

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I know the issue of distortion was addressed a while ago but I was wondering how happy the map team is with making this fit. Obviously the problem gets bigger the further away from teh equator you get. SO the NoPAC and southern OZ/NZ would be the most effected. I beleive it was said that Oz was 30% too large on the orginal WItP map. Is it any better on the AE map?

Good question! Needless to say on the scale of the AE map (which stretches its coverage a bit further than the original WitP maps) there will be distortion. The distortion gets larger the further you get from the centre of the map (both vertically and horizontally, so it isn't just related to distance from the equator). I have tried to mitigate the map distortion, but it is impossible to eliminate it when representing so much of a sphere using a 2D map.

Having said that the average map distance errors on the AE map are less that on the stock maps (either the official one or my one).

Thinking backing to the old SPI WItP board game (if you could call a game that took up half my basement a board game) the designers took a very interesting appraoch to the problem. The map was devided into three sections: Tropical, Temperate, and Cold (vs Artic because that would be incorrect below the equator). Hexes were 60 NM in Tropical Zone, 50 NM in the Temperate Zone, and 40 NM in the Cold Zone. Took a slide rule to figure out air ranges and ship speeds when they crossed a zone but the data was expressed in NM not hexes. Actually it was all done in 10 nm increments so 6,5, 4 per hex respectively.

Yes I have heard that, and it was even discussed early on regarding AE, I seem to recall. But in the end we stuck to the same hex system as used in the original WitP (albeit with a difference in map scale).

Just wondering hwo well the squeezed AE map deal with it

I think the map works OK, even with the distortion.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Either the map would have to be made 20 hexes wider, or everything shifted 20 hexes. Most players wouldn't want to give up most of India to get more of the US. They'd probably lynch you.

Bill

Except the people in Tennessee, perhaps...

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

@ Andrew

production of crude oil in the DEI in 1940 (in 1.000kg)

West Java 24
Midden Java 136.469 (Tjepoe)
Oost Java 703.001 (Soerabaja)
Palembang 3.077.557
Djambi 1.210.398 (the oil was pipelined to Palembang)
Oostkust Sumatra 156.488 (Pangkalanbrandan and Pangkalansoesoe)
Atjeh 764.488 (Lho Semawe, Lokop and Koeala Simpang)
Borneo 1.793.148 (Balikpapan, Samarinda and Tarakan; the oil near Samarinda was pipelined to Balikpapan)
Ceram 93.231 (Boela)
Nieuw Guinea 4410 (Babo; oil field still under development in 1941)

oil refineries were available at Pangkalanbrandan, Tjepoe, Soerabaja (Wonokromo),
Palembang (Pladjoe and Soengei Gerong), Kapoean (near Djokjakarta) and Balikpapan

Source: A.J.Th. Boester Nederlands-Indie contra Japan volume II

Harald

Great stuff Harald, as always! This corresponds pretty closely with what I already had, but I have made use of these figures to fine tune the data. The biggest change is that your figures indicate that there was a lot more oil being produced at Soerabaja than I realised.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

I have a key distance question related to distortion and hex size. Has the distance between Cooktown and Port Moresby been fixed from stock? In stock, it was 9 hexes or 540 miles (Google Earth lists it at 430). The 9 hex distance is outside the 8 hex range of a B25C/J, so the only way to hit PM from Queensland is by using 4Es (Hudsons can do it too, for all the good that does). This contributes significantly to the inability of the Allies to hold and/or reduce the base. In reality, both the B25C and J could have made the run.

On the AE map, the distance between Cooktown and PM is also 9 hexes. But AE hexes are 40 nautical miles per hex (so smaller than stock hexes). Looking at the stats for the B-25s in AE I can see that this is within extended range of the B-25B, B-25H, B-25J1 and B-25J11, and within normal range (just) of the B-25C and B-25G. I hope that answers the question?

Andrew

[USSAmerica]

Andrew, I'm a map geek, and I just want to say that you are my hero! 
 
The wallpaper on my laptop is the Stock map graphic that someone put together from the individual map files.  I would like to order an AE map composite file, please.  [:)]
 
Thanks for all the hard work and incredible attention to detail.  [&o]

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: USS America

Andrew, I'm a map geek, and I just want to say that you are my hero! 

The wallpaper on my laptop is the Stock map graphic that someone put together from the individual map files.  I would like to order an AE map composite file, please.  [:)]

Thanks for all the hard work and incredible attention to detail.  [&o]

Thanks! I am sure I will be able to provide a composite map at some point.

Andrew

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

I have a key distance question related to distortion and hex size. Has the distance between Cooktown and Port Moresby been fixed from stock? In stock, it was 9 hexes or 540 miles (Google Earth lists it at 430). The 9 hex distance is outside the 8 hex range of a B25C/J, so the only way to hit PM from Queensland is by using 4Es (Hudsons can do it too, for all the good that does). This contributes significantly to the inability of the Allies to hold and/or reduce the base. In reality, both the B25C and J could have made the run.

On the AE map, the distance between Cooktown and PM is also 9 hexes. But AE hexes are 40 nautical miles per hex (so smaller than stock hexes). Looking at the stats for the B-25s in AE I can see that this is within extended range of the B-25B, B-25H, B-25J1 and B-25J11, and within normal range (just) of the B-25C and B-25G. I hope that answers the question?

Andrew

Perfect. Thanks Andrew. 9*40*6000/5280 = 409 miles. Much, much closer to reality for this important relationship--and within the appropriate range of the various models of B25.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

I have a key distance question related to distortion and hex size. Has the distance between Cooktown and Port Moresby been fixed from stock? In stock, it was 9 hexes or 540 miles (Google Earth lists it at 430). The 9 hex distance is outside the 8 hex range of a B25C/J, so the only way to hit PM from Queensland is by using 4Es (Hudsons can do it too, for all the good that does). This contributes significantly to the inability of the Allies to hold and/or reduce the base. In reality, both the B25C and J could have made the run.

On the AE map, the distance between Cooktown and PM is also 9 hexes. But AE hexes are 40 nautical miles per hex (so smaller than stock hexes). Looking at the stats for the B-25s in AE I can see that this is within extended range of the B-25B, B-25H, B-25J1 and B-25J11, and within normal range (just) of the B-25C and B-25G. I hope that answers the question?

Andrew

Perfect. Thanks Andrew. 9*40*6000/5280 = 409 miles. Much, much closer to reality for this important relationship--and within the appropriate range of the various models of B25.

Andrew pioneered the concept of extended maps for WITP. It is not a new thing to him. IIRC to get his first (shared) map, he pulled some things over, angled other things, and when done started measuring one point against another, many different angles to get the locations pretty close to where they belonged in relation to one another. Lots of triangulation checks.
When CHS was released with the extended map, I suspect at least a quarter of the WITP freaks went with it, (and would never look back.)
For those wanting "more" WITP, an extended map was the only way to fly, since it offered "more" of the theatre, and opened other areas of strategic consideration.
Mr Brown will not toot his own horn, he seems too busy.........

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Great stuff Harald, as always! This corresponds pretty closely with what I already had, but I have made use of these figures to fine tune the data. The biggest change is that your figures indicate that there was a lot more oil being produced at Soerabaja than I realised.

Andrew

Some more interesting facts...

Balikpapan produced 1.200.000 tons of crude oil. The only oil field in the vicinity of Balikpapan was Sambodja (about 45km NE of Balikpapan). Sambodja had 10 european and several hundred native employees, Sanga Sanga or Louise (the most important oil field, located near Samarinda) had 70 european and 7.000 native employees...
The third oil field providing oil for Balikpapan was north of the Mahakam river (also near Samarinda).

[cantona2]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown




On the AE map, the distance between Cooktown and PM is also 9 hexes. But AE hexes are 40 nautical miles per hex (so smaller than stock hexes). Looking at the stats for the B-25s in AE I can see that this is within extended range of the B-25B, B-25H, B-25J1 and B-25J11, and within normal range (just) of the B-25C and B-25G. I hope that answers the question?

Andrew

Perfect. Thanks Andrew. 9*40*6000/5280 = 409 miles. Much, much closer to reality for this important relationship--and within the appropriate range of the various models of B25.

Andrew pioneered the concept of extended maps for WITP. It is not a new thing to him. IIRC to get his first (shared) map, he pulled some things over, angled other things, and when done started measuring one point against another, many different angles to get the locations pretty close to where they belonged in relation to one another. Lots of triangulation checks.
When CHS was released with the extended map, I suspect at least a quarter of the WITP freaks went with it, (and would never look back.)
For those wanting "more" WITP, an extended map was the only way to fly, since it offered "more" of the theatre, and opened other areas of strategic consideration.
Mr Brown will not toot his own horn, he seems too busy.........

The we shall toot it for him TOOT TOOT

[HMSWarspite]

Thought for the day: why isn't the map projected on to a sphere - that sorts the distortion issue. only needs a map change, no game engine ones...
 

[vettim89]

I wondered that myself except for the fact that it would require a new graphic s engine. That would require adding a lot of code. Also, you don't really know how much the map subroutine is burried in the existing code. Code be a lot harder then you might think. Would be an awesome addition but I would never begin to ask the AE to undertake it.

Even though it would be REALLY, REALLY cool.

[bradfordkay]

Yeah, but we can ask for WITP2 to be on a spherical map, with at least four zoom levels. After all, if WITP2 does ever come out, it's likely to be the last one most of us will ever play (or see...). [;)]

And if we ever wrote it - it would certainly be the last game we ever wrote!
[:D]

[wdolson]

Making the map psherical was way out of scope for this project.  It would require major surgery to the game engine and that would have rippling effects everywhere in the code. 

If and when WitP II is done, it will have a more accurate map built in from the ground up.

Bill