Reluctant Admiral Feedback

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Did any of the uboats ? Another question is compared to british , US and Japanese in late 1941 how would you rate their experience?

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Monsun group had no particularly "elite" crews.

Well, leaving aside the massive improbability of German U-Boats appearing in the Pacific from Day 1, it would be the Germans and British on top and Americans and Japs on bottom. The former had combat experience, the latter did not.

[bklooste]

The gun club must still exist else the ships would get Ise or Kaga style conversions , they still got their 34 and 40 conversions ...And if it exists the battle line must be maintained. This also stops the moment the US pacific battle line is at the bottom. Interesting Stanislav is of the oppinion the changes favour the gun club...

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

A couple of us have written on how much more useful the Agano's are.

I'm not of the same opinion regarding the Battleline. Whole premise of this Mod is Yamamoto suppressing the 'Gun Club' enough to change building policy, force composition, aerial research, and initial deployment. Taking out the two oldest Japanese BB for Invasion Force protection would make sense since they were 'obsolescent' to the more 'Air Minded.'

I've yet to get the A6M4 and I WANT them! Looking forward to it.

Stanislav is researching the U-Boat Captains and checking the boat histories. This will help in establishing their experience. Think we can give high ratings to two of the AMCs and decent ones to the others...

[bklooste]

Is this reflected at the moment ie brittish much greater than Japanese sub experience ?

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Did any of the uboats ? Another question is compared to british , US and Japanese in late 1941 how would you rate their experience?

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Monsun group had no particularly "elite" crews.

Well, leaving aside the massive improbability of German U-Boats appearing in the Pacific from Day 1, it would be the Germans and British on top and Americans and Japs on bottom. The former had combat experience, the latter did not.

[FatR]

As about relative benefits to Japanese surface and carrier forces in the latest builds (compared to Scen 1):

- Carrier party gets three CVs in 1943. Shinano isn't generally built by good players in Scen 1, so it does not count.
Allies get three extra light carriers and, IIRC, two conversions to balance this. Overall Japan gets about one CV worth of an advantage.

- Gun club gets two BCs, two CAs, one CL, and five sucky CLs are replaced with decent ones. Plus a few extra destroyers and whatever.
Allies don't get anything to compensate. As a result, Japanese surface force gets a greater relative improvement, compared to its Allied counterpart.

P.S.: I didn't have enough time to test late-war Japanese planes in Downfall rigorously, but if anyone is interested, I'll post some of the most obvious conclusions in my AAR thread today.

[John 3rd]

I've been sitting here at home with no turn, the boys home due to no school (it is -8* currently), have been thinking about all we've talked about with the Mod in the last few days. Think I would like to take the time to settle our opening positions for the Fleet. This is what I think we've decided with a few recommendations added:

1. Kido Butai--The 6 CV opening in their normal position except they are in two Warp Speed TF, are at full air complement, have all four BC, and additional Screening Vessels.

2. The 3 CVL (Ryujo, Shoho, and Zuiho) will start at Saipan (think of them as the Tactical Reserve) with screening ships and NO WARP SPEED movement. The Japanese Player can send them into the DEI or SE towards Truk/Rabaul if they want. This placement allows for the Allied player to get a few days to run for their lives before more carrier power arrives. The aircraft here are all upgraded to modern planes.

3. The oldest pair of BB (Fuso/Yamashiro) in the Japanese Fleet are detached from the Battleline, due to the all the BCs moving to the KB, begin at Cam Rahn Bay to provide heavy protection for Invasion Convoys should Force Z make an appearance.

4. Strategic Reserve--At Hiroshima sits the four remaining BBs and two CVEs (Taiyo and Hosho). These CVLs will start with air groups aboard BUT the fighters are Claudes and need upgrading. They are released for duty as soon as word of Pearl Harbor's success is announced.

5. Combined Fleet HQ sits at Saipan in a forward deployment position at its newly expanded base.

6. There will only be a couple of I-Boats deployed in the IO/Bay of Bengal.


This is a synthesis of what we have spoken on. It certainly SHOULD make the opening a bit less horrific for the Allied Player. How does it sound?

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: FatR

As about relative benefits to Japanese surface and carrier forces in the latest builds (compared to Scen 1):

- Carrier party gets three CVs in 1943. Shinano isn't generally built by good players in Scen 1, so it does not count.
Allies get three extra light carriers and, IIRC, two conversions to balance this. Overall Japan gets about one CV worth of an advantage.

- Gun club gets two BCs, two CAs, one CL, and five sucky CLs are replaced with decent ones. Plus a few extra destroyers and whatever.
Allies don't get anything to compensate. As a result, Japanese surface force gets a greater relative improvement, compared to its Allied counterpart.

P.S.: I didn't have enough time to test late-war Japanese planes in Downfall rigorously, but if anyone is interested, I'll post some of the most obvious conclusions in my AAR thread today.

Stanislav: Good Relative Summary of Guns vs. CVs.

Would it be nuts to put Taiho into the Mod but place it back 6-8 months? Probably a bad idea but I am just thinking out loud.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Is this reflected at the moment ie brittish much greater than Japanese sub experience ?

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Did any of the uboats ? Another question is compared to british , US and Japanese in late 1941 how would you rate their experience?

Well, leaving aside the massive improbability of German U-Boats appearing in the Pacific from Day 1, it would be the Germans and British on top and Americans and Japs on bottom. The former had combat experience, the latter did not.

I thought that the two U-Boats starting in the IO were actually present on Dec 7th. Hadn't the Germans already sent a few out into the IO with their shadow replenishment ships and commerce raiders?

[DuckofTindalos]

There were no German U-boats whatsoever in the Indian Ocean until the second half of 1942.

[John 3rd]

I thought that the Iron Man Scenario was working with true deployments to start with. CRAP! Terminus: Do you have those? Can you get them?

[DuckofTindalos]

Have a look at this link:

http://www.uboat.net/ops/monsun.htm

Especially section 2, about the Kriegsmarine's pre-Monsun activities around Cape Town.

[John 3rd]

Thanks. That was quick. Greatly appreciate it.

[DuckofTindalos]

No problem.

[John 3rd]

I begin to understand the issues with the developers in that many of the U-Boats (many more then I thought) simply patrolled from France to Padang and then attempted to return. This was with a quick skim of the article. Will print it in full and try to figure out how to work it out. Would concur with your earlier assessment that there were no U-Boats in the Indian Ocean until mid-43 by the looks of it. Got U-Boats operating near Capetown but doubt if we can model that within the game...

[DuckofTindalos]

We can't.

[FatR]

I have a question though: is it even possible to add ships for Japanese without having them to be a part of the consruction queue? If not, I'm far from convinced that we should even bother with German subs or anything German. If yes, well, I'm currently using www.uboat.net to form the list of subs that arrived to Japanese bases, marking those that also operated from them, instead of just refueling for the return trip.

[DuckofTindalos]

It's not possible, no. We left them out of stock for that reason, and the fact that they'd have to be Japanese, not German.

When I created a Monsun group for my old stock mod, I put a few house rules in the documentation, no accelerating the U-Boats being the main one.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Stanislav: Good Relative Summary of Guns vs. CVs.

Would it be nuts to put Taiho into the Mod but place it back 6-8 months? Probably a bad idea but I am just thinking out loud.

It would. I can propose giving to Kawachis an option of carrier conversion that will give them aircraft capacity around 40. Unfortunately, for the timeframe of such conversion we have to choose between an unrealistic one (like, about 1 year) and one that will make it pointless.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
It's not possible, no. We left them out of stock for that reason, and the fact that they'd have to be Japanese, not German.

When I created a Monsun group for my old stock mod, I put a few house rules in the documentation, no accelerating the U-Boats being the main one.

I quite agree with T. Those boats operated mostly in the region that the game considers 'off map'. They reported to Doenitz, not the IJN, and didn't wander about the Pacific doing their uber/ober Nazi Master Race crap. Should they be included? Who the F knows. Personally, I think not. They were operationally insignifigant. to the theater.

Mod is a mod, so put 'em in, keep 'em out, don't really care. Just keep in mind how operationally worthless they were in the context of the pacific Theater of Operations. Ciao.

[John 3rd]

Thank You John and Terminus.

Topics:

1. Monsoon Group--Toss this idea out. I don't want Japan to have to spend the points for the U-Boats. I now understand the Developer's issues and decisions. Makes a bunch more sense now.

Stanislav--Do you concur with this?

2. As to the Taiho idea toss that too. Was only a whisper of an idea.

3. Don't see the point of converting those new BC or providing the option for a lousy 40 planes.

[FatR]

Yes, I concur. I also would like to thank developers for coming here and helping us separate chaff from the wheat[:)].