LoBaron, thanks! I got it. However the numbers of planes on "standby mode" seems to me too high considering your interpretation...but, above all, if 4500 fighters were needed to actually fight on equal terms (which doesn't mean to stop every enemy raid, mind you)...well the CVs would be damned to always stay away from any lvl 9 enemy airfield! I could have kept them hidden till 1946...but to what pourpose? Deterrent weapon?...not my cup of tea
Alfred, as always, thanks. Everything is clear now. The only thing i notice is that the enemy planes downed on the first wave was really really low...very...too few fighters were airborne when the raid was detected and too many of them were in stand-by...here is where i call some bad luck over this battle...usually i keep my fighters on 30 CAP (LBA fighters i mean) and the scrambling fighters tend to do pretty well...while here everything went wrong...but i got the fact that my decisions created more problems than they solved...live and learn they say...i will learn hopefully
The standby numbers include those planes belonging to the 60% CAP, but
also the 40% without mission. [;)]
Remember, the combat report shows every plane, not only those assigned to CAP.
I know LoBaron, every plane (meaning CAP assigned + not assigned) but not those on LRCAP over other hexes (the 280 Hellcats-3 that were over the invasion fleet).
However, as i stated before, in these 3 years of gameplay CAP leaving 30% on CAP and 70% of non assigned has given great results. Over Karachi, over Tulagi, over Hakkodate...those planes not assigned were always scrambling in time to reach the target...they were ready on the strip with warmt engines... Don't know why this time it happened exactly the opposite...that's why i say also a bad dice and roll kicked in... but maybe, as alfred said, LBA battles are very different from Carrier battles...
Anyway...next time (if i will even get another chance) i'll place a solid 100% CAP with 3 bands of altitudes[:)]
But...moving over...now i need to re-think and re-organize my overall strategy.
The primary goal now is to find a way to defend my supply lines which are very exposed.
I'm organizing a series of interlocking air bases with enough DBs and TBs to keep the KB honest. Aleutinas and Kuriles will obviously need some extra attention now.
What's left of the allied DS will be patrolling the seas between Kuriles and Aleutinas so to be in a position to cut the retreat route to the KB if it dares to move towards Seattle or Alaska...but we know that now we'll be struggling a lot!
Just out of curiosity, what kind of cap setup could GJ have used to avoid this?
I just bought the game, so, I'm no where near a situation where I might make the same mistake ( I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around the BIG PICTURE aspect of the game) but it would be be handy to know there IS a solution...
Being paranoid doesn't necesserilly mean that "they" aren't actually out to get you...
The standby numbers include those planes belonging to the 60% CAP, but
also the 40% without mission. [;)]
Remember, the combat report shows every plane, not only those assigned to CAP.
I know LoBaron, every plane (meaning CAP assigned + not assigned) but not those on LRCAP over other hexes (the 280 Hellcats-3 that were over the invasion fleet).
However, as i stated before, in these 3 years of gameplay CAP leaving 30% on CAP and 70% of non assigned has given great results. Over Karachi, over Tulagi, over Hakkodate...those planes not assigned were always scrambling in time to reach the target...they were ready on the strip with warmt engines... Don't know why this time it happened exactly the opposite...that's why i say also a bad dice and roll kicked in... but maybe, as alfred said, LBA battles are very different from Carrier battles...
Anyway...next time (if i will even get another chance) i'll place a solid 100% CAP with 3 bands of altitudes[:)]
One of the differences is that over land targets you are not going to see TB on a final attack profile of 200'. Over land targets, as players attempt to improve their strike package co-ordination, the delta range of attack altitude tends to be much narrower. The enemy may come in at a certain altitude today and perhaps a different altitude the following turn in order to get the defending CAP out of position, but today most of the bombers will attempt to come in at the same altitude to maximise co-ordination.
A task force (particularly a CV TF with the high value CVs) which is attacked instead is likely to be the subject of planes with torpedoes approaching at one altitude and then entering the attack profile at 200'; divebomers probably at a medium height (10-14k) in order to dive bomb although they will then deliver their ordnance at 2-5k, but they could approach at another altitude also for a level bombing or glide bombing run; then you can find some aircraft (perhaps fighter bombers) coming in at 100' to skip bomb etc etc.
This makes setting CAP for a CV TF a much more difficult proposition and the odds are always against a CV TF going up against well stocked enemy land airfields. Particularly if no friendly LBA is available and the objective grounds to justify the operation are absent.
GreyJoy's prior experience in the Solomons was of very limited value because (a) the targets in the TF were much more numerous and widespread because the high value targets, ie CVs were not used, (I refer to a previous post regarding the target weighting of ship types) and (b) there were far fewer well stocked land enemy airfields.
I've had this sort of thing happen to me repeatedly, though on a much smaller scale. Taking Milne Bay while the foe had the rest of Papua, Gasmata and Rabaul was a very bad idea even with CVs, too many airfields. And later on cruising CVs around Manus while Hansa Bay, Hollandia, Aitape and Dagua are all stacked up, was a similarly bad idea. Coordination, when it happens, can be incredibly ugly. My Manus Incident involved a small Japanese CVTF's strike linking up perfectly with 3 strikes from land based airfields - there were a lot of intersecting lines that day.
It's just too much to risk. Basically, if there are multiple airfields in range then keep the hell away with CVs. I think the way to go as the Allies is to capture an exposed base, build up heavy bombers, trash everything within 16 hexes, rinse/repeat, with minimum exposure to naval assets. It's clearly not really possible to suppress all the Japanese airfields in range of Sadogashima, so it's a death trap in waiting... if you absolutely /had/ to do it I guess the best approach would be with massed paratroopers I guess, if you can get transport a/c in range, and rely on surprise, parashock and a limited garrison.
That said. I would never have imagined such devastation wrought on your CVs while your many Hellcats basically sat on their ass. All I can say is, never underestimate the ability of the Allied navy in this game to screw up. I have zero confidence in any Allied naval assets whatsoever - submarines, CVs, surface ships, whatever, they are all mincemeat in the Japanese war machines tracks unless you have a massive quantitative advantage. Here, given all the airfields and incoming firepower, you clearly didn't have that quantitative advantage.
... With 2 days turn the 100% CAP can be really a problem because the second day, after a day of battles, will result in your crews having more than 50 fatigue accumulated...
I would recheck this. I don't find quite such a large increase (increase in fatigue of 50 points) on my units undertaking 100% LRCAP after one day, and the fatigue increase on a unit on 100% CAP after 1 day is much less, usually more in the 15-20% range.
Plus I've even had units with most pilots in the 80-90% fatigue rate still conduct satisfactory operations.
As always it comes down to paying proper attention to logistical considerations:
fly only at normal range
if possible avoid using drop tanks but if used, then fly only at the new "normal" range
choose only wothwhile missions
Never fear going beyond the comfort envelope if the potential reward is worth it. There will be plenty of time afterwards for proper rest and recovery. Engaging in bloody fighting may be fun to some but not to me. However there are times when the situation requires bloody fighting. The skill lies in identifying when it is and when it isn't appropriate. For a game which is so heavily focussed on the real capabilities and deficiencies of the WWII combatants, that is a lesson far too easily forgotten by players who are otherwise far too eager to discuss esotoric details of military hardware.
What I'm curious about, and this may have been mentioned earlier and I missed it, but was there no LBA fighter cover on LR CAP? Seems that would have helped quite a bit. The CVs when attacked were only 5 hexes from Hakodate. This should be within normal range for quite a few fighters based there. It could have at least helped when the CV fighters are subject to so many other factors and trying to support the transports several hexes away.
Tough loss. This will certainly change the game quite a bit! Looks like more digging in and strat bombing for several months ahead.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
What I'm curious about, and this may have been mentioned earlier and I missed it, but was there no LBA fighter cover on LR CAP? Seems that would have helped quite a bit.
You get massive coordination penalties from LBA LRCAPPing carriers. That said, "every little helps".
The news reached Washington and London almost immediately...the operation Dust N Bones was a complete fiasco...no, not a fiasco...a disaster!
3/4 of the allied Carrier Fleet was sunk...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 115,54
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22
A6M3a Zero x 64
A6M5 Zero x 48
A6M5b Zero x 15
A6M5c Zero x 142
A7M2 Sam x 33
B7A2 Grace x 235
D4Y4 Judy x 34
J2M3 Jack x 48
N1K1-J George x 81
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 21
Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 97
F4U-1A Corsair x 330
F4U-1D Corsair x 129
F6F-3 Hellcat x 72
F6F-5 Hellcat x 555
Dear lord. And people are still defending the air model.
Sorry to say but this is why I gave up on this game, there are simply too many crazy results where one side gets utterly trounced for no reason and it is just not fun.
What I'm curious about, and this may have been mentioned earlier and I missed it, but was there no LBA fighter cover on LR CAP? Seems that would have helped quite a bit.
You get massive coordination penalties from LBA LRCAPPing carriers. That said, "every little helps".
All my LBA fighters at Hakodate were placed (a part from those specifically on LRCAP over the invasion fleet) on 60% CAP max Range...i was in faxct hoping in some leakers to give help to my CVs...didn't happen...
My overall thought, after reading and understanding everything Alfred and LoBaron said, there was no real way to keep my CVs safe under these circumnstances. The flaw was in my decision to risk...i shouldn't have had.
If with 60% CAP with 1100 fighters the results against the 1st raid were less than 40 enemy planes shot down out of 500 involved, a 100% CAP setting wouldn't have changed things much.
I'm trying to convince myself it was a bad-dice-n-roll...i wanna think that a re-play would see different and more favourable results (not saying untouched CVs...i was well prepared to lose some of them)...meaning more enemies shot down and a less perfect bombers attacking rally...
But anyway...let's move on guys...it's a game...and Rader got screwed up by this very game engine other times (for ex the loss of his CAs during his last raid)...so it's a give and take...this time we're on the wrong side of the hill...and it hurts...but one of us has to lose at the end...so we have the accept the outcome and keep our head up and keep on fighting till the very end!
Tough loss. This will certainly change the game quite a bit!
Yes, but if the final pourpose of a game is entretainament, this is exactly what the best match should do. A constant changing of fortunes...[:'(]
The allies were clearly winning...were sieging Japan...and now, when the hope seemed lost for the rising sun...BOOM...le coup de teatre that changes everything back again!
This will keep the game very entretaining till 1946...may prove to be a good happening for everbody (GJ, Rader, JFBs and even AFBs...) [8D]
And i won't sit on my thumbs for the rest of the war. This is a promise
Move over guys...please...every minute i spend watching at the turn (i'm giving orders now) it's a pain in the heart...
Let's look at the future...there's still a war to carry on...and the best way to honour those sailors drowned today is to keep on fighting!
Tough loss. This will certainly change the game quite a bit!
Yes, but if the final pourpose of a game is entretainament, this is exactly what the best match should do. A constant changing of fortunes...[:'(]
The allies were clearly winning...were sieging Japan...and now, when the hope seemed lost for the rising sun...BOOM...le coup de teatre that changes everything back again!
This will keep the game very entretaining till 1946...may prove to be a good happening for everbody (GJ, Rader, JFBs and even AFBs...) [8D]
And i won't sit on my thumbs for the rest of the war. This is a promise
Love the spirit!!!
Yes, you're right, and really, this will provide you with some fun challenges. You'll get to find out what you can do with all of that nice stuff over in Russia soon as well! That'll be fun for sure.
We want JETS!!! (For both of you I mean!)
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Sorry to drag this out further GJ, but I've just had another look at the big strike on your CVs. Your CAP managed to shoot down 25 a/c. Twenty-Five.
Lets all remember that only a handfull of F4Fs managed to shoot down 15 attacking Jap bombers at Midway. No matter how much of your CAP was out of position/scrambling/refuelling/taking a shit that is a ridiculous result. Hell you cannot even blame it on this "200 firing passes limit" that is being talked about. Something is just plain screwed.
Sorry to drag this out further GJ, but I've just had another look at the big strike on your CVs. Your CAP managed to shoot down 25 a/c. Twenty-Five.
Lets all remember that only a handfull of F4Fs managed to shoot down 15 attacking Jap bombers at Midway. No matter how much of your CAP was out of position/scrambling/refuelling/taking a shit that is a ridiculous result. Hell you cannot even blame it on this "200 firing passes limit" that is being talked about. Something is just plain screwed.
I know miller. I have concerns too. Dont think i have not. The explanations given are logical but don't explain such a poor result. That's why i prefer to think about it as bad luck...one of those uncontrollable variables that sometimes kick in in RL events... I cannot do anything right now to change the outcome of this battle...so i eat the shit, swallow and move over...
