The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[GreyJoy]

Sure. Thanks god we are

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Varus, give me back my legions.

[hades1001]

Then I'll call the game still not playable.

There is no way coordination strike can be this big size and the CAP is basically useless.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Are you still using the modified EXE?

Me wonders if similar results would be had in a different patch. I guess we'll always wonder.

[Canoerebel]

Star Wars.

[hades1001]

FYI Micheal made a special EXE for Greyjoy and Radar to play and test. It suppose to provide more passes in the air combat which means more Japs planes should be shot down in this given scenario.

But apparently more fire passes won't deal with a coordinated wave of 600+ planes. Fail.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Are you still using the modified EXE?

Me wonders if similar results would be had in a different patch. I guess we'll always wonder.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Miller

Sorry to drag this out further GJ, but I've just had another look at the big strike on your CVs. Your CAP managed to shoot down 25 a/c. Twenty-Five.

Lets all remember that only a handfull of F4Fs managed to shoot down 15 attacking Jap bombers at Midway. No matter how much of your CAP was out of position/scrambling/refuelling/taking a shit that is a ridiculous result. Hell you cannot even blame it on this "200 firing passes limit" that is being talked about. Something is just plain screwed.

I know miller. I have concerns too. Dont think i have not. The explanations given are logical but don't explain such a poor result. That's why i prefer to think about it as bad luck...one of those uncontrollable variables that sometimes kick in in RL events... I cannot do anything right now to change the outcome of this battle...so i eat the shit, swallow and move over...

Guys, just a small reminder: The combat report shows a much lower number of planes shot down than
actually have been killed. In some instances the real kill numbers are 2-5 times as high.

When you check the first strike you see 15 B7A2 Grace shot down by A2A.
Considering that only 192 Grace were able to launch torps, even deducting the planes
shot down by AA (17, where we don´t know how many reached weapon release point), you
still end up with at least 26 Grace which must have been killed in A2A.
The number is probably higher as I assumed all 17 AA kills to have happened before launch.

An educated guess would be at least 30 Grace killed by fighters alone, while the combat report shows 15.

If you use this number as basis, and expand this to the fighter losses, you end up with roughly
50 kills, maybe more for this single raid. Averaged out this means about every 7-8th pilot anywhere
in the contested airspace was able to score a kill. This number increases if you add up the
other waves (note: this also increases the number of CAP fighters involved obviousely).

If you take the low combat report estimates into account and only include strikes targeting the
CV groups, you end up with about every 3rd or 4th USN fighter pilot even remotely involved in CV fleet
defense action scoring a kill.

This is a conservative estimate, probably the true A2A losses were much higher.


The combat report has FOW in some instances while no FOW in others. a/c killed is one of the things highly
influenced by FOW, with a tendency to gravely underestimate true kill numbers.




The second thing I´d like to mention is: Never make the mistake of viewing a strike wave - or package, but
some react allergic to this designation [;)] - separate from the overall action. Combat with this
number of planes involved happens over a high ammount of time and over a large area. Just because you
witness one part of an attack burning through the CAP like butter you cannot automatically conclude
that something is borked.

If you do that, you´d have to apply the same type of analysis to every single wave, and then you get
non values as results.

Look at this:

Japanese aircraft
B6N2 Jill x 66
J2M3 Jack x 22
N1K1-J George x 5



Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 97
F4U-1A Corsair x 330
F4U-1D Corsair x 127
F6F-3 Hellcat x 71
F6F-5 Hellcat x 547


Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 36 destroyed, 4 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed by flak
J2M3 Jack: 3 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed


If you consider the understatement of the combat report conerning A2A kills, probably 90-95%
of the total planes were shot down.

This is the same strike guys! This is not something where you can say, "oh, but this happened somewhere else".

[hades1001]

So you really think 300 fighters(1/3 of the cap) in the air only kills 50-60 planes before they reach the torpedo release point is reasonable? In early war stage 100 cap will do the same job, if not shot down more.

And by bringing in a wave of 600+ planes it's hopeless to defend now matter how many planes you shot down. The real problem is the number of planes in a single coordinated wave. It's really sci-fi numbers. I guess someone is right. This is not war in the Pacific, it's STAR WAR!

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

STAR WAR!

S

[Canoerebel]

[:)]

[Grfin Zeppelin]

I am sorry for the spam but I waited a long time for an opportunity to post them.

[hades1001]

Nice job milady [:D]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I am a little surprised at how bent out of shape the JFBs seem to be getting over a little free intel going the Allies way in a game that completely fails to model the HUGE intel advantage the Allies actually had.

How about we just suppose the allies intercepted the orders and decoded them....wait....no that can't happen in RL!!!

This whole JFB/AFB is starting to get to me. Hans, have you ever played the Japanese? Perhaps experience things on that end of the spectrum and then make your comments. Many of the things you gripe about are included for play balance...right or wrong. It's a GAME. Japan needs some help, otherwise you don't have a game, you have a simulation. Frankly, who wants that?

Hear, hear! I play the Allies but just look over my sig.

BTW, I owe Rader some sort of apology in that I no longer think he used the production bug to advance his fighters so rapidly. Apparently it "is" possible to pull it off with careful manipulation of prouduction and research. A few top not JFB production experts know this and know how to make use of it. I suspect that when a few more learn how to do it then changes will be called for. At least it might call for a new house rule-especially if you are going to go deep into scen #2.

One only needs to read his AAR to know that he understands the game very well. He is obviously very smart and plays to win and will explore and use the game to the best of his ability. Is this gamey? Well, that is a matter of opinion I suppose. As far as this game goes, I am going to try and back off from that sort of accusation. I think the best judge of that is probably Greyjoy who has proved over an over again that he can go head to head with Rader.

[hades1001]

Actually a test shows that using the latest beta, which don't have a research bug.

It is possible to accelerate Shinden for 14 months and Sam for 12 months. 12 factories on research for each plane. So AFBs should all expect to see Shinden and Sam in June-August, 1944.
Banzai!

Bug free test, proved to be true[8D]

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So you really think 300 fighters(1/3 of the cap) in the air only kills 50-60 planes before they reach the torpedo release point is reasonable? In early war stage 100 cap will do the same job, if not shot down more.

No I don´t, but the combat report also tells me differnt numbers than you seem to take for granted. [:)]

Ill put it simple as it is:
The strike on GJ carriers was too much for the CAP he assigned. To counter such a dedicated raid (also considering rader for ages trains his most valuable pilots
for such occasions) he would have needed more than 3 times the numbers, and still would face losses.

We do not have many historical examples of dedicated CAP trying to stop a high skill naval attack counting more than 500 a/c. But examples in comparable enviroment
suggests that a 300 fighters will not neccesarily dent such a strike. How should it with WWII capabilities?

Think BoB, close to all fair weather raids countered by heavy resistance reached target, and this with the best integrated air defense system in the world at the time.

To position carriers 80 miles from mainland Japan, while the IJN is still able to mount large scale strikes with modern planes and good pilots would never ever have been
allowed by the USN, for very obvious reasons.

If you want to complain about the ability of Japan to mount this type of raids in scen. 2 late war, please do so.
But don´t confuse that fact as an issue of the air combat model.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Think BoB, close to all fair weather raids countered by heavy resistance reached target, and this with the best integrated air defense system in the world at the time.

I don't think the BoB is a very good basis for comparison. At all.

Hugh Dowding expressly used Fabian tactics (small wings not big wings) to get the Luftwaffe into an attritional war and maintain Fighter Command as a credible opponent, which is all he really had to do to win. Even so despite such pennypinching tactics the BoB also taught that unless the escorts outnumbered the CAP 2-1 the bombers would be slaughtered - bombers much tougher than a Grace, I imagine, and with the fighters only armed with .303 machine guns.

I imagine the radars on the American fleet in late 1944 were just as good as the Chain Home stations on the southern British coastline in 1940, if not better. And there would be no Fabian tactics or need to preserve the Hellcat force for another day when CVs are involved. They would scramble EVERYTHING if need be without too much compunction beyond the need to ward off strikes later in the day. The character of an air battle over CVs and the extended BoB campaign would be like chalk and cheese.

[aztez]

To pretty much summarize the latest... the air combat model really needs serious overhaul to put it kindly and politely! [:)]

The true Star Wars episode that carrier thing was... sad but true.

[vicberg]

BTW, I owe Rader some sort of apology in that I no longer think he used the production bug to advance his fighters so rapidly. Apparently it "is" possible to pull it off with careful manipulation of prouduction and research. A few top not JFB production experts know this and know how to make use of it. I suspect that when a few more learn how to do it then changes will be called for. At least it might call for a new house rule-especially if you are going to go deep into scen #2.

I am a Jap Fanboy. Instead of saying that game isn't playable, realize that Scen #2 gives tremendous advantages. A huge surplus in resources/oil/fuel. Extra squadrons. Extra troops. Something overlooked, that I haven't even seen someone post on yet, massive air support (base forces, AF units, etc.). Call it star wars if you want or play another scenario.

Want to play a more realistic game, play Da Big Babes, especially version C. Transport capability is severely reduced, as are engineers, ground support, air support. Can't fly 600 planes in a day because there isn't the air support for it. Combat is slowed down because of lack of ground support. Coordination? Well, that's another issue, but without the air support at a base, planes don't fly.

Yes the japs can advance the Sheridan. But if the DEI is cutoff or taken, will the Japanese have the HI to make enough of them in late 44 to make a difference? As far as I can tell, nothing has been done to stop the inflow of resources/fuel. That's a strategic decision. So Radar's economy, minus the destroyed factories from the strat war, is still in fine shape.

[hades1001]

I totally agree with you that Greyjoy's CAP won't be able to handle this number of attack.
But i think the way of how the attacks approaches can be tweaked.

I would think instead of 600-700 planes in one wave, break this wave into 3 smaller wave which includes around 200 planes. just like the other waves in the rest of the day. Japs still can sunk/heave damage a few carriers but not wipe of the whole fleet by only 250 torpedo planes.

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So you really think 300 fighters(1/3 of the cap) in the air only kills 50-60 planes before they reach the torpedo release point is reasonable? In early war stage 100 cap will do the same job, if not shot down more.

No I don´t, but the combat report also tells me differnt numbers than you seem to take for granted. [:)]

Ill put it simple as it is:
The strike on GJ carriers was too much for the CAP he assigned. To counter such a dedicated raid (also considering rader for ages trains his most valuable pilots
for such occasions) he would have needed more than 3 times the numbers, and still would face losses.

We do not have many historical examples of dedicated CAP trying to stop a high skill naval attack counting more than 500 a/c. But examples in comparable enviroment
suggests that a 300 fighters will not neccesarily dent such a strike. How should it with WWII capabilities?

Think BoB, close to all fair weather raids countered by heavy resistance reached target, and this with the best integrated air defense system in the world at the time.

To position carriers 80 miles from mainland Japan, while the IJN is still able to mount large scale strikes with modern planes and good pilots would never ever have been
allowed by the USN, for very obvious reasons.

If you want to complain about the ability of Japan to mount this type of raids in scen. 2 late war, please do so.
But don´t confuse that fact as an issue of the air combat model.

[Canoerebel]

Divine Wind?