The First Team: Take Two!

[John 3rd]

Good sets of comments fellas.  These are my plans for China at present:

1.  With the Chinese discovery of my true offensive in the last couple of days I will be pulling troops back towards Paotow and Yenen.  Will let them fill back out and rest before launching a new operation against Honan.

2.  Am attacking across the river from Ichang and will drive south along the west bank towards Wenchow and Changsha.

3.  Will bomb the living Hell out of Changsha's resources.  They should run out of supply pretty fast with India and Burma gone so that will help.

4.  Will move to capture Kanshien and finish clearing out the south.

These operation should be viewed not in weeks but months.  They are the longer-view strategy for keeping the Chinese pinned and emasculated.

I want to work in China because (as we have SOOOO discussed in the Forlorn Hopes AAR) I suck at land combat.  This will be a learning opportunity for me and, thus, will take any advice from anyone that help me improve my game skills in this area.

EDIT: Forgot to add that nothing more comes out of China in the foreseeable future. The 3 Inf Brigades I just pulled shall be it. We'll draw from Kwantung.

[Q-Ball]

The PP costs are VERY expensive, but we have 4-5 Divisions available to pull without hurting operations anywhere.

The 9th and 20th from Kwantung (selected because they have 80 exp, so start off as crack units)

The 52,53,54 Divisions in Home Islands.

It will take 5 weeks per division or so, but we can eventually buy them all.

The only other unit is the 1 VM at Hanoi, but it makes me nervous to completely strip the Vietnamese border. I feel better with that unit in Hanoi.

We are in a long stretch where Japan gets no Combat unit reinforcements. Too bad all those units in 1944 can't be accelerated. John knows, the only place Japan gets stronger as the game goes on is in Infantry.

[John 3rd]

Got that right Sir!  I haven't checked email yet this morning and need to jump on our 2x2 morning turn. 

Just updated in Forlorn Hopes my abject depression and thanks for various people's support.  Need to check Dan's thoughts there.

Got a late start today with our carpet of white.  On the POSITIVE side we got nearly 14" wonderful inches of wet snow yesterday and the town is mostly shutdown.  VERY NICE! 

Let me see what our evil enemies are doing back in May 1942---far more enjoyable then Dec 1944!!!

[Q-Ball]

Combat Report
May 13,14, 1942

Interesting couple days in India.

The Allies are making a stand at Bombay. Intel reported 34 units, and we sent over "intelligence shells" yesterday to count the troops. There are over 100K Allies, included most of the units from Malaya, which are mostly rebuilt from fragments. I have 2 divisions in the urban hex, the idea is to pin all those troops there, and push everywhere else for Karachi.

Bhopal fell a few days back, and we are approaching Ahmadebad and Jaipur, which are both empty. Other units appear to be fleeing through Delhi to the west, probably to make a stand at Karachi.

In BURMA, we attack Mandalay tommorow.

[Canoerebel]

Any guess as to the Allied AV at Bombay?  If they have so much there, will they be fairly weak at Karachi?  Any guess as to the ultimate outcome in India?  Sounds like the best the Allies can hope for is to hold both Bombay and Karachi and to begin their comeback from there; and the worst case might be to lose one or the other.
 
The Allies haven't suffered a crippling blow by any means.  They can certainly come back from this unless something disastrous happens to trigger auto-victory.
 
The real challenge for the Japs is to craft a defense that, if possible, persuades the Allies to slog their way across India fighting as they go, rather than doing an end run around India that puts them closer to the SRA and renders the Japs in India irrelevant.  So, after awhile, you guys need to "play dumb" in India to create weaknesses that entice the Allies into concentrating there.
 
Or, at least I think that's what you want to do.
 
Good luck!

[Canoerebel]

Thinking more about auto-victory, the Allies may be sweating as you go deeply into '42.  You've taken Noumea, which hurts them badly (its point value is high), and the loss of so many bases in India and NZ will be a blow.  Also, the fact that the Japs haven't lost any major ships is a blow. 
 
So, the prospect of auto-victory may keep the Allies "honest" by forcing them to look for opportunities to score points either by taking some bases or inflicting damage to Jap aircraft or ships.  Without that incentive, they could continue to sit back and wait until they get more ships, men, and better planes in '43.  They may not have that luxury in this game because you'll have them backed them up against the auto-victory wall.   So, Jap tactics and victories may ultimately force the Allies out of "Sir Robin" before they wanted to come out. 

[Q-Ball]

Good thoughts Dan, even if they can hold Karachi and Bombay, I think we'll gain alot from this. The final tally is still to be calculated, but there are Allied forces on Ceylon and in Burma that are in real danger of destruction, not to mention some forces we have already destroyed on the way.

At some point we will have to abandon India, I don't think there is much doubt about that. The later the better though, and in WITP the British are much more of an offensive threat than IRL, as you know from your game with John.

[John 3rd]

You guys hit the nail on the head. Here is the combat report with Bombay:

[John 3rd]

Here is a summary of the movement occurring within India as Brad drives west...

[Canoerebel]

If they have that much in Bombay, they can't have much in Karachi. But this is where they'll drive you crazy. It'll take you awhile to move an army to Karchi, and in a week's time they can transfer 500 AV via air transport - give or take a bunch depeninding on how many transports they have. So you may find yourself racing to an open Karachi only to arrive and find a stout army entrenched there.

[Cap Mandrake]

I was attracted to the "India Thrusts" title. I thought I might find an excert from the Kama Sutra.

Are both Karachi and Bombay urban in this mod?

[Canoerebel]

Yep, both are urban hexes.

[John 3rd]

I will leave this battle in Brad's hands and only provide my useless thoughts and advice!  

Glad to draw capt with the whole Kama Sutra India Thrusts title!

Dan (who is up WAAAAY Late) has very good and valid points regarding air transport.  I honestly have no clue as to what is in Karachi.  I say we cut Bombay off and blast the pogees out of it!  For whatever that is worth...considering the day I've had probably not much...

[Q-Ball]

I think it entirely possible that we will hit an urban wall at both Karachi and Bombay. I have several ideas if that is the case:

1. We will want to close the airbases there. This is critical. We can build several nearby airbases to both, and also employ the IJN. They will have to have so many planes on Nav attack, escort, CAP, etc, they won't be able to cover all eventualities. It will take alot of aircraft to "break" the Allies CAP, but once we set up the air infrastructure, we can do that and maintain it for awhile.

It will be a major project to break the Allied airpower, but attacking from many bases on one, I think we can do it.

2. Utilized IJN to interdict supplies, probably more to Bombay than Karachi. We have all our old BB's under repair at the moment, but most are nearing completion. When this happens, we will bombard Bombay constantly. I have a small CV force to also work the sealane to the south, though one the RN gets that 3rd CV, it won't be up to the task of a straight out fight. We may encourage one anyway, if I can LRCAP from shore, and the Allies won't have a good port.

3. We can take the time to clean up Ceylon. This was always the plan. We can't have it in our rear, and should net us a nice prisoner haul.

[Q-Ball]

And here is the best question for the gallery?

I have not given up on Karachi yet, but let's say we do end up with all of India but Karachi and Bombay. If this is the case, was it worth it?

I think about John and Dan's game, where John took all of Australia, save Melbourne and Sydney. Ultimately Dan bounced back completely from that.

I would love to hear other's thoughts, but I think there are key differences between India and Australia that will make this expedition worth it.

BURMA will be a key beneficiary; we look to trap and destroy some units there, and at the conclusion, the Burma "front" will just be the portion facing the Chinese border. The Chinese are not near the offensive threat the British are, so that takes away a key Allied area of advance

INDIA will be a bit of a sump of IJA Resources. But it will take a long time for the British to break out, and keep them pinned a long time. We have also prevented a British-Chinese hook up. Dan and John's game shows how potent a combination that is for the Allies, Chinese troops in British ships. This theater offers alot of opportunities for the Allies (much more than RL), and blunting the British delays or pushes that threat off.

India is a net positive however in terms of resources, supplies, and goodies the Empire needs. This is a key benefit; our operations there are self-sustaining.

The conquest of NEW ZEALAND effectively cuts Australia off from the US; the draw of Allied air resources to India also means that Australia has almost no air units at the moment. It's not an offensive platform at all, and won't figure to be for some time. That is another benefit of this.

The only realistic places the Allies can advance now is in the EASTERN PACIFIC. And I expect them to try shortly.

Overall, Japan sort of has 3 general options after the initial objectives, loosely Australia, India, or pushing into the eastern pacific. I think India is the best. I suppose AE is going to change that with all the new garrison requirements.

[John 3rd]

Been thinking about what Brad has written here. This is a Strategic Proposal for Planning purposes:

1. Take the line detailed below.
2. Clean-up our Rear so there is nothing to concern us while--at the same time--building up our infrastructure.
3. Take Bombay through weakening it with Blockade and then assault.
4. Launch limited Offensive the grab Lahore and Rawapindi.
5. With Fall of Bombay launch final do or die drive on Karachi.

While these events are occurring we must plan on a Naval contest of the Gulf of Aden. I would prose the following Fleet additions:

1. We have another CVE due out in about 2 weeks. Hosho is nearly done repairing. Send them both to India. This will give the Fleet both Junyos, 3 CVE, and Hosho (202 Planes). Should be enough to give a good accounting of itself and fight the Brit Fleet.

2. All 6 of the Old BB move to or stay in India. Form 2 Bombardment TF to Operate out of Mandalore that can keep Bombay under Bombardment 2 days in 3. Will need more AR to base there as well out of the Repair Yards in Trincomalee and Diamond Harbor.

3. Form 2-3 Raiding TF consisting of 3-4 CA/CL and 5-7 DD.

I think the key is to reach a stop point and then clean-up the backyard before moving for the final kill.

We must also station a few Units in our Rear to act as Reaction Forces if the Allies try to launch an amphibious assault; however, to do so they will need strong Naval CAP and we should be able to get through that and sink the Invasion Force.

My .02

[Q-Ball]

Combat Report
May 15, 1942

This is a brief one, a couple quick updates:

1. Mandalay had a 3 to 1 shock attack, dropping the forts and setting up what will probably be the final attack tommorow. We hope to destroy those troops in a few days by driving them to Myiktinya, and forcing a surrender.

2. Ahmadabad or whatever that town is will be taken shortly; the land route to Bombay is already cut. Jaipur is also in Danger. Cownpore fell today. The Allies are running as fast as possible for Delhi, and probably Karachi, as Delhi can be easily cut. I think they will win the race to Jaipur, but we are going to try to cut the Allies off in Norther India. Most of our troops are heading toward Bhopal/Jaipur to effect that.

[Canoerebel]

Brad, the conquest of so much of India has absolutely been worth it - both in territory, resources, pushing the Allies back, and the fact that you've lost next to nothing to this point.
 
Here is my analysis, for what it's worth:
 
1.  Will taking Karachi and Bombay give you guys auto-victory?  If so, and if there is any way to take them, then doing so is worth every effort.  All possible attention should be given to that and everything else would be a sideshow (note, attaining auto-victory is an artificial sort of objective, but it's the only way the Japanese can really win the war; if both sides wanted to continue the war after the Japs attained victiory, that would be great; but it would be awfully sweet for you guys to have identified your objective and to have obtained it).
 
2.  If taking Karachi and Bombay won't give you auto-victory, or if doing so is essentially impossible, recognize that fact as early as possible and don't break your back trying to reduce them for no good reason.  IE, avoid doing what Hitler did with the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain.
 
3.  Taking Ceylon and wiping out all remaining resistance outside Bombay and Karachi are definately worthwhile goals.
 
4.  The Allies will have a hard time getting untracked again, but by late '42 or early '43 should be in a position to take the war to the Japs.  A major landing on Ceylon or Sumatra would be two obvious targets.  If you can entice the Allies into instead invading a point in mainland India and then fighting their way across the continent, you've sucked them into a long ground campaign over territory you'd have to give up anyhow.
 
5.  They may use the American carriers in the Pacific, or possibly they could commit them to the Indian Ocean if they feel like the war could be lost there.

[veji1]

I disagree with John's assesment on the importance of cleaning the pockets behind the front before moving in for the kill... you need to assess the situation properly but either Karachi is doable and you need to act fast and go for it or you KNOW it isn't in the short term, and therefore probably never, and you can sit back and clean up before besieging Bombay..

[John 3rd]

This is at Bombay...