Sqz stands down. The AAR is now concluded. Sqz (A) vs. obvert (J)

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Sqz, this game is a lot like golf -- very humbling at times.[:D]

Glad to see you posting again![&o]

No dice rolls in golf. [8D]

Thanks Lowpe. I've probably alienated most of the community, so your comment is much appreciated.

[Lowpe]

Do you know how to tell an experienced golfer from a duffer? The experienced golfer makes excuses for poor performance prior to making the shot, the duffer makes excuses after blowing the shot.[:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Do you know how to tell an experienced golfer from a duffer? The experienced golfer makes excuses for poor performance prior to making the shot, the duffer makes excuses after blowing the shot.[:D]

Luckily, I'm a better golfer than AE player!

[SqzMyLemon]

July 31/44:

The month ends with a bit of a spanking. Eric nails Silchar with hundreds of Allied bomber and transport aircraft on the ground with no AA and fighter CAP. A painful reminder to not get complacent. All told I lose 48 aircraft on the ground.

Painful, but not the end of the world. It will give me a chance to reorganize my forward air bases and deploy aircraft in a better fashion. I've pulled all the bombers and transports out of theatre to see the effect on supply in Burma. Other than the transports my bombers weren't flying any missions at all other than training.

I thought about a knee jerk reaction with massive sweeps, but passed on it. I'll wait until ground operations commence. I see no point in losing more pilots and planes just because I got caught with my pants down.

I've readjusted my air dispositions on New Guinea to make sure this doesn't happen again.

The Ponape resupply mission is complete. Transports and my carriers are withdrawing. If Erik is going to react it will occur next turn before I'm out of range from Truk. All told, 150k of supply and 20k of fuel was unloaded at Ponape and U.S. 93rd Division was withdrawn. I didn't know, but from reading a Max Hastings book the 93rd was a coloured division in the Army. It has a tough next assignment...Yap.

Much of the British Fleet is now deployed to Australia and tasked with supporting the liberation of Western Australia. I wonder if Erik would send KB to try and knock the British Fleet out of the war. After Australia is liberated, I can't decide whether to send the British to support operations against Burma, or combine it with the U.S. fleet in my effort to trash the Combined Fleet.

The Allied LCU reinforcement queue for the remainder of 1944 is drying up. I need to get moving with what I have, which is plenty.

[SqzMyLemon]

Ok defenders of the air model, I have some questions.

I'd like to start a discussion on how to beat low CAP and what the engine is doing.

I was going to send a bit of a rant to Erik regarding the latest air combat we just engaged in, but that seems counterproductive. So I'd rather post here and see if people are willing to help me figure things out, instead of me just getting mad about it.

Here's what happened.

I sent three sweeps against Hollandia during the August 4/44 turn. The three sweeping squadrons were Corsairs. I assigned no escort, but rather numerous combinations of LRCAP. I'll try to break it down as best I can.

Sweeps were set to 15k, 31k and 36k (max altitude of the Corsair is 36k).

I set LRCAP at 10k, 15k, 20k, 31k, 36k, 41k, 42k and 44k. These were P-47's, Hellcats, Spitfires, P-40N's, Lightnings both J's and L's (L's have max altitude of 44k) and Corsairs.

Japan got radar warning and plenty of reaction time, but the CAP still only arrived in driblets. All Japanese CAP was set to 5k, 7k and 9k. So I'm thinking I have early numbers, height, speed and firepower on my side. But I barely eeked out a 1.5:1 loss ratio. What is happening?

During the combat, I suffered nearly 90% of the dive. Luckily, it wasn't the bounce dive where the Japanese CAP was on my six, but still...it was Japanese dive after dive after dive. I get the radar put some of the CAP above me, but for example my P-38L's set to 44k were all dived on, as were my P-47's set to 42k...all dove on. Why is my LRCAP not getting a height advantage, why does my LRCAP or sweeps for that matter, not dive on Japanese CAP that has dove on my low LRCAP at 10k and 15k? Where is my speed advantage to avoid the dive in the first place?

I didn't lose a single Corsair set to sweep...are they even really engaging? I had very few passes done by the Corsairs. Is it just my LRCAP engaging? Why is my LRCAP beign sucked down low enough for Japanese CAP to get the dive...why is it not the other way around, especially when I've set aircraft at 44k and Japan doesn't even have a fighter that can reach that altitude?

I'm not a developer, or programmer, but it seems like I need to be in order to beat this low CAP. I don't understand what is happening and why my aircraft are being brought down in altitude to suffer dive attacks consistently. I don't understand why all the different altitudes aren't creating more dive opportunities for my aircraft, rather than the Japanese CAP getting all the tactical advantages. On the day I lose more P-47s and P-38's then any other aircraft...yet they are my high LRCAP. What gives? The P-38's were dived on again and again despite the highest altitude settings.

I read in tiemanj's AAR that he tested sweeping down low? The whole advantage of Erik's low CAP settings is to get the maximum number of CAP up as quickly as possible to swamp the low numbers of Allied fighters I can assign to a sweep mission. When I go low I'm getting swamped. The only way I can counter the Japanese numbers is to assign a crazy amount of escorts and LRCAP, but they aren't preforming how I expect at those altitude settings. I have tried just using sweeps before and they don't do well. They achieve no better than 1:1 no matter at what altitude they are set to. So what are some answers?

I am not a developer or programmer, I'm not going to 'test' how to manipulate the air model. I'm just a player, that assigns my units as best I can, yet hardly ever achieve better than 1.5:1 loss ratios against low layered CAP. I don't know how to game the engine, but I'm getting very tired and frustrated by having to face someone that knows how to game the engine. I need answers on how to beat the low CAP.

I am asking for help in understanding why my aircraft are underperforming and why I can't compete against the low CAP at better than 1.5:1.

[Lowpe]

Can sweepers have escorts?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Can sweepers have escorts?

I have noticed that sometimes they pick up fighters that are on escort or even on LRCAP.

[Lowpe]

A few questions:

What was the range? Do you have a well led HQa at the airbase? Did they fly from the same air base? Were all airbases under the influence of an HQa, preferably the same one?

Were your planes and pilots rested? Fatigue on both? Average A2A skill and defense skill of your pilots? Well led squadrons?

What was the enemy resistance? Number of planes and types?

It sounds like from your description it was a real hornets den of enemy fighters, given your huge LRCAP presence.

I am not sure on the positive effects of LRCAP for sweepers. It actually might be detrimental.

Given the information you gave me this is what I would do:

Good recon on the base and a sub there is possible.

1. Send a squadron of bombers in at night (HR limitation, right). I wouldn't expect much, but I wouldn't sweep until they actually bombed once.

2. Sweep at best maneuver band with my best sweepers. In general I like to sweep with at least 2/3rds of the number of defending planes present. If 300 planes are defending I want to sweep with at least 200 and then only if my planes are better than his.

So, out of the planes you listed I would use the Jugs and Spitfires and Corsairs (for numbers). On the third day, I would bomb at night, sweep during the day and might fly a squadron of Jugs at max altitude too, and this time throw all the planes at him sweeping. On the fourth day I would bomb at night, sweep and bomb during the day with 4E. Something like that.

If I could I would try for naval bombardment too.

Lightnings aren't good enough to sweep first line un-fatigued Japanese fighters in mid 44 anymore.

It seems to me you had fair results for the first day for sweeping a major base with only 3 squadrons (and corsairs at that) set to sweep with no night bombing or shore bombardment prior. To be honest I don't see your complaint.

I think that is pretty much the same advice I gave last time you asked. And Japan isn't pursing some mystical understanding of the game engine. Rather they are using their high maneuver planes to their best advantage. He seems to have a big base, plentiful AV support, HQa, good leaders and pilots, and lots of radar.

The Japanese are using tactics pioneered by LoBaron, the Elf, Alfred, and others advocated since the beginning of the game.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

A few questions:

What was the range? Do you have a well led HQa at the airbase? Did they fly from the same air base? Were all airbases under the influence of an HQa, preferably the same one?

Three bases: Dagua, Madang and Hansa Bay...two air HQ's at Madang. All fighters within range of the HQ's. Halsey is the Air HQ leader.

Were your planes and pilots rested? Fatigue on both? Average A2A skill and defense skill of your pilots? Well led squadrons?

Rested, no fatigue...best pilots I have and best leaders I can muster...pilots 70+ experience with 70/70+ skill in air and defense.

What was the enemy resistance? Number of planes and types?

Base showed 242 fighters...Georges, Jacks, Tony's, Oscar's and Franks. I will post the combat report when I get home.

It sounds like from your description it was a real hornets den of enemy fighters, given your huge LRCAP presence.

I am not sure on the positive effects of LRCAP for sweepers. It actually might be detrimental.

Given the information you gave me this is what I would do:

Good recon on the base and a sub there is possible.

1. Send a squadron of bombers in at night (HR limitation, right). I wouldn't expect much, but I wouldn't sweep until they actually bombed once.

2. Sweep at best maneuver band with my best sweepers. In general I like to sweep with at least 2/3rds of the number of defending planes present. If 300 planes are defending I want to sweep with at least 200 and then only if my planes are better than his.

So, out of the planes you listed I would use the Jugs and Spitfires and Corsairs (for numbers). On the third day, I would bomb at night, sweep during the day and might fly a squadron of Jugs at max altitude too, and this time throw all the planes at him sweeping. On the fourth day I would bomb at night, sweep and bomb during the day with 4E. Something like that.

I can only night bomb with one bomber group, 50 bombers max by HR. I'm lucky it I even get 2 airbase hits at 12k. If I fly lower I'm losing 10+ bombers to FLAK.

If I could I would try for naval bombardment too.

Lightnings aren't good enough to sweep first line un-fatigued Japanese fighters in mid 44 anymore.

It seems to me you had fair results for the first day for sweeping a major base with only 3 squadrons (and corsairs at that) set to sweep with no night bombing or shore bombardment prior. To be honest I don't see your complaint.

The more sweeps I commit, the more aircraft I lose and it takes weeks to recover. I'm trying fewer sweeps with more support to try and keep my losses manageable. If I sweep as you suggest, base don what has happened previously in this game, I'll lose 50% of my fighters. Again, the Allies can't sustain those losses when the Japanese are trading 1:1.

I think that is pretty much the same advice I gave last time you asked. And Japan isn't pursing some mystical understanding of the game engine. Rather they are using their high maneuver planes to their best advantage. He seems to have a big base, plentiful AV support, HQa, good leaders and pilots, and lots of radar.

Ok, point taken...Erik is using his aircraft to their best ability. What is the Allied best ability...I thought speed and firepower were the Allies' best weapons, how is it they don't seem to function very well against low CAP? My maneuver bands don't really improve for most Allied fighters the lower they go...their ratings are pretty static across most maneuver bands...so why are they not performing better at any particular altitude? It can't come down to just what the Japanese do, how to commit the Allied fighters so they get all the benefits of their design too?

The Japanese are using tactics pioneered by LoBaron, the Elf, Alfred, and others advocated since the beginning of the game.

Understood, but then why are they not also stating how to beat low CAP? They know it's a numbers game and low CAP gets the Japanese airborne pretty damn quick. What's the counter? I have tried individual sweeps as you mentioned and the first two or three get swamped and suffer catastrophic losses, sure my follow up sweeps face less resistance and the numbers even out, but that's the problem...there is no way the Allied can sustain a successful air campaign at 1:1. I lose entire squadrons when they sweep individually and that's unsustainable.

Ok, so 1.5:1 is an ok result...fair enough, perhaps I've been too conditioned by others that state they get 5:1 kill ratios, but I assume they are not encountering low CAP settings. Yes, it's a tough target, but they all are now at this stage of the war....what can I expect if I ever get in range of Japan. It will be more of the same and I need to learn how to counter it.

I am trying to have a discussion, so I don't see this as complaining this time...I'm just trying to understand what is occurring. The main focus of my post was to try and understand why I'm suffering getting dived on 90% of the time when I'm set higher. Is the radar putting all the Japanese aircraft higher than me? What explains why my high LRCAP is getting dived on? I'll take these results, considering I suffered huge tactical disadvantages by being dived on almost every individual fighter engagement, it was my pilot skill and aircraft that prevented this being an Allied bloodbath. I get it...the expects say use low CAP...what is the counter? Should all Allied fighters be set just as low? They know how the engine works, I don't. I'm asking how it works so I can counter low CAP. I'd really like to know why my LRCAP is being forced low....giving up the tactical advantage and getting dived on, that is the only reason these sweeps were even close...The Japanese were always above me and there never was the mix up that everyone claims is supposed to happen, because the Allied planes had maybe a total of 10 dives in these three sweep missions in total...combined.

The Allies are supposed to have great aircraft and supposedly in the hands of a great pilot almost unbeatable, yet here I am with my best pilots and aircraft where everyone says speed is king, yet I'm getting dived on...all the time.

[Canoerebel]

Sometimes I get high kill ratios, sometimes low. Today, for instance, 20+ P-38s sweeping Manila faced about 100 Franks and Georges. Both sides lost five fighters (1:1 ratio). A few days before, Thunderbolts and Corsairs mostly scored 5:1 ratios.

So many factors influence air combat results that it can be difficult to know exactly what's happening and why. But one umbrella rule of thumb I fall back on is to not hit the enemy where he is strongest and most prepared unless I have an advantage. It seems to me you work from the opposite viewpoint, determined that the code should allow you to prevail.

You'll know that the quality of your pilots is a key factor and, correspondingly, the quality of his. If you've spent the entire game losing air battles so that his pilot corps is elite while yours is beat up...you're going to have a tough time consistently winning air battles. In that case, you've got to figure out a different way to come at the issue.

If your pilots are equal to his and both sides have planes of relatively equal quality...and he's flying only low CAP, then I'd come at him low, medium and high...if I needed to sweep that base. Sweeping aircraft at 35k probably won't be able to interact with enemy aircraft at 8k (just like CAP set at 35k is going to have a tough time intercepting enemy bombers coming in at 10k).

[SqzMyLemon]

I will try more sweeps at lower altitudes. However, whenever I have before I lose 50% of my sweepers.

[SqzMyLemon]

Another question.

Does the number of aircraft I send on a mission affect the number of Japanese fighters scrambled?

Does assigning so much LRCAP actually get more Japanese fighters to scramble? If I send in less LRCAP or escorts, could that reduce the number of the CAP I face?

[SqzMyLemon]

Do embedded DMS with bombardment groups help prevent mine hits, or do they adversely affect the ability of ships to bombard?

Anyone have experience with effective range when bombarding targets with CD guns? I'm thinking of bombarding out at ranges of 20+ would that be too far out, or can I go even farther to get a decent bombardment. Does being further out also reduce mine hits?

[SqzMyLemon]

I went back to read LoBaron's air guide. I haven't referred to it in awhile and I've forgotten some things he suggests. I will try some different things on my end to see if I can get a handle on this.

I may have been right though in thinking that smaller raids do better. I had started trying to bomb with single bomber groups rather than the massed raids when trying to hammer a target. I have gotten away from that at times, but it appears that is the worst thing to do and my results have confirmed that. The engine can't handle too many variables. I need to understand better what the air model sucks at and stop committing my force in ways that simply pile on what the engine doesn't do well.

If it truly comes down to a numbers game though as he suggests, then low CAP is pretty hard to beat. Without the numbers on my side I take horrendous losses in individual squadrons because they get swamped.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Do embedded DMS with bombardment groups help prevent mine hits, or do they adversely affect the ability of ships to bombard?

Anyone have experience with effective range when bombarding targets with CD guns? I'm thinking of bombarding out at ranges of 20+ would that be too far out, or can I go even farther to get a decent bombardment. Does being further out also reduce mine hits?

If you include DMS with your bombardment run, then the DMS will be nailed by CD guns.

I have had good luck bombarding at max range when mines are present and detected. Max your recon, day and night of the base to help detect the minefields prior to going in along with a spotter plane for the bombardment.

[Lowpe]

From your answers you are flying right into the teeth of some of the best Japanese air defense systems. It shouldn't be easy.

You have a lot of tools in your toolbox, and it seems to me you reach for the biggest hammer only.

Do some things to draw out his fighters perhaps?

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From your answers you are flying right into the teeth of some of the best Japanese air defense systems. It shouldn't be easy.

You have a lot of tools in your toolbox, and it seems to me you reach for the biggest hammer only.

Do some things to draw out his fighters perhaps?

Only through inexperience. Most AAR's of Allied games haven't faced low CAP. Erik has refined these tactics, but not too many Allied players have faced them. I read a lot of AAR's where results are based on Japan doing the wrong thing in the air, I understand that now. But nowhere is it explained very well from an Allied perspective on how to deal with low CAP when it's faced. So I fall right into the group that bitches and moans about the air model. I get it, I don't know or understand how it works and I see others with massive raids and think that will work for me. It doesn't against low CAP.

Erik CAPs at range zero...period. He doesn't let his fighters get drawn out, nor do I. Now that I realize that using mass bombing raids is a disaster, I won't use them anymore and reading LoBaron's guide confirms this is the way to go.

I'm learning how to use the Allies from trial and error and every setback, be it naval or air, takes time to recover from. I don't have the time to do everything perfectly, if I do I'll never be within bombing range of Japan before the end of 45.

You all are right though, what I have been trying isn't working.

[Lowpe]

Force him to LRCAP things like troops or ships or smaller bases.

Set up CAP traps over your ships.

Bypass Japanese strongholds.

Also, be careful with those older posts. The air engine did have problems with huge raids, but as I understand it a lot of it was fixed after Greyjoy vs Radar which brought those problems to light.

[Aurorus]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

From your answers you are flying right into the teeth of some of the best Japanese air defense systems. It shouldn't be easy.

You have a lot of tools in your toolbox, and it seems to me you reach for the biggest hammer only.

Do some things to draw out his fighters perhaps?

Only through inexperience. Most AAR's of Allied games haven't faced low CAP. Erik has refined these tactics, but not too many Allied players have faced them. I read a lot of AAR's where results are based on Japan doing the wrong thing in the air, I understand that now. But nowhere is it explained very well from an Allied perspective on how to deal with low CAP when it's faced. So I fall right into the group that bitches and moans about the air model. I get it, I don't know or understand how it works and I see others with massive raids and think that will work for me. It doesn't against low CAP.

Erik CAPs at range zero...period. He doesn't let his fighters get drawn out, nor do I. Now that I realize that using mass bombing raids is a disaster, I won't use them anymore and reading LoBaron's guide confirms this is the way to go.

I'm learning how to use the Allies from trial and error and every setback, be it naval or air, takes time to recover from. I don't have the time to do everything perfectly, if I do I'll never be within bombing range of Japan before the end of 45.

You all are right though, what I have been trying isn't working.

Use basic allied air doctrine. People played poorly in the past, so don't play like that. I have no idea what possessed Japanese players to think that it was a good idea to fly their aircraft at 35K feet all the time. Keep your groups closer together and not 30K above enemy fighters. What is happening is that a small number of your planes are actually engaging. They are doing so piecemeal and being swarmed. Keep your groups within contact of each other: 1 or 1.5 times the climb rating of your aircraft... i.e. 4K or so. If he insists on flying so low, then send your sweeps in just over him... i.e. 12K or 15K, and your 4E bombers with escorts in high, i.e. 25K. If you send you sweeps in high, they are just pulling fighters upward, toward the bomber groups that... hopefully... come later. You are also hurting the morale and fatigue of your pilots flying so high, which gives him even more of an advantage. Also... by flying so high, your fighters are having trouble gaining altitude before the attacks are scheduled. This may be one reason that your sweeps have not been arriving before your raids.

Low sweeps and high bomber raids was basic allied air doctrine for the conduct of the war.

[SqzMyLemon]

Thanks for all the comments. I'll be trying to unlearn much of what I've read and seen in AARs over the years.

On a game note, the August 5th turn is away. The air force has been stood down to recover fatigue and replenish airframes before I try new tactics. I lost 48 aircraft in total from the previous day's action, but spread out over a large number of squadrons so only a few days are needed. In the meantime naval units will deploy forward with the intention of targeting Hollandia for a naval bombardment.

The U.S. carriers are currently softening up targets in the Marshall Islands. Landings will occur at Kusaie Island and Maloelap Atoll within days. Once these operations are complete, the fleet will withdraw to Sydney so that all my CVE's can upgrade their AA suite in September. It will take 21 days for the upgrades. So I'll be looking to finally move forward again in October. A new CV will join the fleet during this period as well.

British naval forces are deploying to Port Augusta in preparation for operations to liberate Western Australia. An amphibious landing at Esperance will start things off followed by an overland march to liberate Kalgoorlie. Once the rail line is open the British Fleet will withdraw and support U.S. operations in the Central Pacific.

In Burma, I've decided to withdraw all Australian forces from the theatre. This will free up three divisions and a number of engineer and artillery units for deployment to the Pacific. This leaves the British and Indian divisions to continue the stalemate in Burma. All I want to do is continue to draw Japanese strength into the theatre, while trying to improve my overall position by maneuver. Erik has shifted the bulk of his forces to Prome and area...so I'll shift again and improve my positions around Taung Gyi.

The last three months of 1944 will be high risk/reward time for the Allies. If I have any chance to eek out a win in this one, it will be because of what happens during these three months.