The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
"Russian and other allied units cannot be co-located or occupy each other's bases. "

Well, this is the HR Rader requested. My understanding is that it covers up almost every kind of coordinated fighting effort between the russians and the western allies.
An HR is like a contract. Its interpretation can always be stretched to some degrees. I could, for example, use 99 american/british APA, and 1 Russian cruiser to create an amphib convoy under the USSR Navy flag and land a russian army in Honsu, interpretating it as an extension of the Land Lease act... it's an interpretation that obviously tries to elude or evade the inner meaning of the HR which is clear: Russian and Western allies are two separate forces both enemy of Japan but that operate separated.

Will for sure be a subject to be discussed, but i will not feel particularly strong in arguing the right of my interpretation of the rule

"

Hi GreyJoy,

My two bits worth:

1. If you haven't already agreed to any such prohibitive force restrictions re: the Soviets, don't. With all due respect, if English isn't your native tongue, you can be manipulated by what the 'spirit' of the agreement is. Don't address the spirit and dispute the (English) language used.

2. If you had a HR regarding the Soviets and it can be loosely interpreted, I would have no problem with your interpretation you've provided above.

How about building the heck out of Sagoshima, evacuating all non-Soviet Allied forces and then hand the base over to the Soviets when they come in theatre, when it's been maxed out? The Japanese are unlikely to be able to take it, as it would require ship commitments to transport their LCUs.

They can use this base (or another of your choosing on Northern Honshu, similarly evacuated) for their follow-up invasions of Honshu. Of course, your amphibious TFs-that you've exemplified above-will comprise almost exclusively of non-Soviet ships, but I don't see any ruling on your Amphib TF makeup yet.

I'll avoid the somewhat uncharacteristically ascerbic and (I feel) unfair remarks by Alfred on your opponent's behavior. I don't believe that these constitute a basis for productive discussion.

I'm pleased that both you and your opponent are enjoying the game as much as we are entertained by your game and gameplay, GreyJoy.

[Alfred]

I could quote the entire post #12 from the tech support sub-forum and go through point by point and justify my comments on rader but instead I will only quote this small excerpt

Even if it was perfectly historical, it is just not good for the game IMO. I would rather play a balanced game that gives both sides options than one where once the allies get into range of Japan, the game is effectively over. Strategies that have no counter just aren't fun or balanced in a game setting.

He wants a balanced game. Not possible if there is any attempt at representing accurately WWII in the PTO. There is no balance in war. There would be no victors in war if there was balance. Japan lost WWII badly.

In the PTO force power and projection was asymmetrical. Rader was quite willing to accept the benefits of asymetry when it favoured the Japanese. Not a squeak from him to voluntarily disdain from using the benefits. Indeed quite to the contrary, he wrung every possible benefit out of the game system. Where was his concern that the poor Chinese lacked any equipment to meet on equal and balanced terms his use of tanks in China. Did the Chinese then have a counter to his strategy. Was it fun for GreyJoy that he had no effective counter then. Now when the asymmetry favours the Allies he cries for balance.

Time after time rader puts up his version of real world historical facts regarding equipment capabilities. Always without exception, he is the beneficiary of his argument. Go back to the first sentence I quote from his post: Even if it was perfectly historical, it is just not good for the game IMO. This means in the final upshot the historical reality should always be overthrown if it is not good for the game. So why does he bother to hamstrung the Allied play on the basis of historically accurate facts but then completely turns around and claims they should be disregarded when he can't equally find historically accurate facts to strengthen the Japanese capabilities.

Go and read the whole of that post #12 in that thread. He puts up reasons why he can't counter the Allied airforce but conveniently does not mention other tactics which he can employ, tactics I might add which he used much earlier in the war when it benefitted Japan. He argues that the Allied time frame for the reduction of Japanese industry took a long time, conveniently using non matching data sets to make his point. Based on the long range bombing of japan from Saipan he baldly states that Allied bombing from nearby Hokkaido should produce the same results as the historical bombing from Saipan.

He is able to still produce equipment because he has a bank of Heavy Industry points. That is a mechanic only available within the game, not in real life. Where, in the interests of balanced play, is his concern about this? He is able to maintain the combat power of his LCUs because of the bank of Armament and Vehicle points. That is a mechanic only available within the game, not in real life. Where, in the interests f balanced play, is his concern about this? His aircraft and engines which are in his pools cannot be destroyed. This is a mechanic only available within the game, not in real life. Where, in the interests of balanced play, is his concern about this?

Return to his post #12 in that thread. Note what he says about the results of the Allies lodging in Hokkaido. That is a very unsubtle threat to GreyJoy that he will abandon the game if there is no fun in it for him. Then reread what I have quoted above. Where is the difference in attitude between rader and those other Japanese players who abandon the game in 1942 if the KB is sunk.

Whose fault was it that the opportunity for GreyJoy to capture Hokkaido and the Kuriles was presented? No Allied lodgement in Hokkaido, no bombing of Japanese industry, which by the way is quickly repaired but rader never mentions that. He is much more comfortable bringing to our attention the difficulties he labours under when his industry is damaged. Historically, damaged Japanese industry was not repaired as quickly as it can and is done in the game. Why is that fact never incorporated into his "historical" analysis.

Anyway enough for now, I said I wasn't going to go through point by point.

Alfred

[obvert]

Wow. You might have won me over on this one.

Still these two have forged a good relationship out of this game, and GJ's acceptance of these rules IMHO has made this particular game better, not worse. It has led him to be creative and sneaky and to surprise us all by pulling out what seemed an impossible task.

It's not worth it to stand on principle now if the history of this game and the future of it depend on finding a compromise that suits both players. GJ continues to argue this, and yet you may win him over to talk it out with Rader as well. That is okay, as long as they decide what happens together.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
GreyJoy,

I have largely refrained from commenting on your opponent's approach and I won't fully unleash now, but he has always treated you, and the rest of the forum as fools. Nothing he puts forward to justify his actions has any validity, he misuses historical data, he misrepresents how the game operates, he misrepresents how he suffers from game mechanics. He might be a lovely individual in real life but he is not the saint you depict him as a player.

Alfred,

Sorry, but I'm not buying the justification for your inopportune and injudicious choice of words. I'll quote the above polemic. You don't fully unleash...right up until the point where you do.

Rader is not treating everyone on the forum as fools.

Some of his arguments are valid from his point of view, as are his arguments to justify his actions.

There's not enough detail in your other personal attacks to justify a response.

Ad hominim attacks are unbecoming to a usually well-spoken individual such as yourself. I'd advise stowing your inexplicable venom for Rader personally. In my opinion, it's unjustified and unnecessarily angry and hostile. I'd hate to see this hostility detract from this or Rader's AAR further.

GreyJoy: sorry for the (again) unnecessary diversion to your AAR.

[House Stark]

I don't think Rader's a bad guy or anything like that trying to tailor the rules to his favor so that he can win. I think he just notices and is bothered by things such as the nuclear 4Es and his solution is HRs. I get the feeling that some of Rader's advantages have come from un-HRable, abstract things such as taking China and most of India and abusing the research to advance planes, both of which Greyjoy was unprepared for. I also get the feeling that Greyjoy is just less likely to want to HR things that bother him then Rader. This, combined with the fact that Rader's ruthless tactics and Greyjoy's fast learning curve have resulted in a very unhistorical game, that's why Rader is the asking for new HRs more often about Greyjoy. But this is a poor subject for discussion, bring on more game updates Greyjoy!

[jeffk3510]

Nuclear 4Es?

You mean historical results, that he can't stand seeing destroy his empire? So he handcuffs them..

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: House Stark

I don't think Rader's a bad guy or anything like that trying to tailor the rules to his favor so that he can win. I think he just notices and is bothered by things such as the nuclear 4Es and his solution is HRs. I get the feeling that some of Rader's advantages have come from un-HRable, abstract things such as taking China and most of India and abusing the research to advance planes, both of which Greyjoy was unprepared for. I also get the feeling that Greyjoy is just less likely to want to HR things that bother him then Rader. This, combined with the fact that Rader's ruthless tactics and Greyjoy's fast learning curve have resulted in a very unhistorical game, that's why Rader is the asking for new HRs more often about Greyjoy. But this is a poor subject for discussion, bring on more game updates Greyjoy!

I don't see how this leads to or justifies Rader asking for these kinds of HRs.

[GreyJoy]

Guys (and i mean all of you dear readers and contributors),
 
           you know how important for me has always been your judgments, your suggestions, you "backing me up" throughout the whole game.
You know (and in case you don't, well, now you know [:)]) how much i esteem (!?) your words, your logic, your thoughts in general.
This community - and especially, for what concerns me, the inner community grown inside this AAR thread - has earned my biggest and deepest respect: here i know i'm facing, arguing, jocking with true men of true intelligence, knowledge and honour.
 
That's why it's really hard for me to ask you, in the most polite and whispering way, to refrain, from now on, on commenting about my opponent.
I ask you please...
...i'm in the very strange and unpleasent situation of being the only (well, not the only one but...) voice that stands in his defence in this AAR (a place that he cannot read and so he cannot defend himself properly).
And i'm not the best defender he can have...first because my lack of competence in english, secondly - and obviously - because, despite i try to be as much objective as possible, i am nonetheless on the other side of the hill and my view cannot be completely "super partes".
 
This is a game after all...a game which requires a great investement of time and efforts...and i agree (i truly do) with Rader that a game to be fun needs to be as balanced as possible.
The HRs don't really matter as long as we both have our fun... and i had the best possible gaming experience of my whole life. The challenges of the HRs have made this game even funnier for me cause through the "slings and arrows of an outrageous fortune" you really experience what means the struggle for victory.
 
Anyway, i know that me and Rader can find an agreement that suits both of us...and we can keep on playing, having fun and, thorugh our AARs, maybe let you taste a bit of "this" fun... but the attitude that has grown in the forum against Rader is really putting me and him in a strange and unplesant situation...a situation where he feels guilty for advocating his POVs (fearing that me and the community could feel he's abusing me) and where i cannot defend my own position cause i feel i need first to defend my opponent, my friend.
 
I don't deny that it's probably also my own fault...at the beginning of the match i felt so "abused" (due to my lack of experience probably) that i felt good when someone pointed out that our HRs weren't fair... So i apologise for this bad attidute...towards Rader and towards you all.
 
But now please, for the goodness of this gaming experience...for the goodness of this AAR... let's simply move over and leave the whole HRs stuff to be decided just by me and Rader.
 
Hope (sincerly hope) you all understand.
 
Thanks
 
GJ

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Hope (sincerly hope) you all understand.

Absolutely, GreyJoy. Absolutely.

[witpqs]

[8D]

[Canoerebel]

"...jocking with true men of true intelligence."&nbsp; <~~He was referring to me at this point, though I'm not sure what "jocking" means.&nbsp; I think that's Italian for "paying homage to."

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

"...jocking with true men of true intelligence."  <~~He was referring to me at this point, though I'm not sure what "jocking" means.  I think that's Italian for "paying homage to."

That's your story - stick to it! [:D]

[obvert]

jockeying?

[Dan Nichols]

Google

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... fid=976896

[jeffk3510]

Urban Dictionary is the second greatest thing ever invented...right behind pushpops ovcourse.

[Knucles2]

I would think that "jocking" had something to do with being Scottish...might even have something to do with haggis...or maybe kilts...

[GreyJoy]

W:H:A:T:A:T:U:R:N:[X(][X(][X(]

[obvert]

Is this another long multiple post turn report? [:)]

Good or bad?

[GreyJoy]

nearly 25 naval engagements in two days...6 susb attacks...8 air battles... over 600 planes shot down...naval bombardments...mines...night and day engagements...
Wow...
&nbsp;
It seems that (FOW allowing) that 3 Japanese BBs and 2 CLs + 6(or 7) DDs have been sunk in exchange of 4 British CLs and 12 allied DDs, along with nearly 30 PTs...
In the air we got&nbsp;a solid 4-1 in our favour...and Sadogashima, despite being very badly hurt...is still OPEN!!!
&nbsp;
See u tomorrow with a comprehensive aftermath and not less than 12 screenshots...
&nbsp;
[:D]

[GreyJoy]

too long to post for tonight...
&nbsp;
A draw i'd say...not everything went as we hoped...but a very positive draw imho...