OT: Corona virus

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You didn't do this on purpose, but in your lengthy post with quotes attributed and unattributed, readers will assume that I'm the author of unattributed quotes embedded amongst quotes attributed to me. Please make your posts accurate and clear.

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've spent the better part of an hour trying for the right way of saying I disagree with a number of posts today from both ends of the political spectrum. I haven't solved the Gordian knot and have erased every effort thus far. Suffice to say race shouldn't play a part in how we look at every single thing, always dividing rather than bringing together. We Americans are sharply divided on many issues, and with cause, but all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave.

As I've stated this all had do with a post about how some hospitals and medical facitilities are struggling with the lack of income and extra costs associated with the pandemic, and how that has hit and may continue to hit less privileged communities more. Potentially with consequences as big as hospitals closing.

https://www.ft.com/content/3bbb4f7c-890 ... 8a3e3fbd33

Others picked up on this area in the quote I picked out ...

---------------

Initial data suggests the disease has had a disproportionate impact on communities of colour. In New York, black and Latino people are twice as likely to die as white people. At One Brooklyn, the group has seen a high rate of hospitalisation among its coronavirus-positive patients. “Our community has been very significantly affected,” says Brown. “There is a reality that many of the hospitals that serve low-income communities of colour have the least amount of resources . . . Any public health crisis will uncover inequalities.”[/color]

... and ran with that for a while, and it's actually been interesting to work through that discussion. We don't need to shy away from race if all are okay with discussing their position on it in relation to these issues, but I think where we have failed occasionally is to stay relevant to the issues at hand.

Some of my posts have diverged in order to clarify that privilege and race are factors in relation to this discussion. I was particularly impressed with some forumites' personnal experiences around race, regardless or some initial flippant comments that came out. (Thanks Hans, MakeeLearn and RangerJoe)

What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?

Some of those questions mean that some people struggle to get ahead that much harder than others, regardless of intent, inspiration, gratitude or opportunity.

That also has some effect on access to health care, education about nutrition, financial access to higher quality food and lifestyle, and other factors both cultural and economical that could be having an effect on the disproportionate number of black and brown people in the US (and elsewhere, like the UK) suffering and dying from this pandemic.

I have noticed the many of your comments seem directed at people without responding to them particularly by quoting posts or naming those people. You have also made many posts that seem very off-topic and lead to more "opinion shaming" in spite of your comment that "all parties of good faith are welcome at the table of discussion. None should be asked to leave."

Or did you only mean "all Americans?"

Some examples from today:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
(Geez, we need to qualify everything to mollify the perpetually offended.)

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.

Is everyone "welcome at the table, really?"

I ask again, and please be specific, "What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?"

I say that everyone is welcome at the table. If I don't care for your attitude or remarks, I will ignore you.

As far as healthcare outcomes, high blood pressure has been proven to start in children. I could even point out the baseball player whose records helped to prove this. That may be genetic but it could also be diet related. That can be socioeconomic but it could also be cultural.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

The economy has had a bit of a rebound in the financial markets. Will that translate to employment figures picking up when reopening gradually increases opportunities for businesses to pick up where they left off?

https://www.ft.com/content/88e57ec9-42d ... 3a6a54837d

Stock markets have notched up healthy gains in April despite the grim performances of national economies, pushing the FTSE All World index of global stocks to its best month since 2011. UK blue-chips briefly entered a bull market this week, up more than 20 per cent from their recent lows.

Some investors have expressed doubts about whether the rallies have further to run, but are reluctant to bet against the massive interventions by central banks and governments around the world.

“This rally in equities is clearly not driven by fundamentals — it’s driven by the liquidity support from the Federal Reserve,” said Torsten Slok, chief economist at Deutsche Bank Securities. “Companies are getting cash to keep the lights on through the significant support to credit markets.”

-----------------

“The rollout of an effective Covid-19 treatment could contribute to a sustainable end to lockdowns, improve consumer confidence, and boost the global economy and markets,” said Mark Haefele, chief investment officer for UBS Global Wealth Management.

In addition, expectations for economic growth and corporate health are already so low that even the release of dire data and corporate profits are not enough to foster disappointment. “Earnings are dreadful, but we know that,” said Mr Riley at BlueBay.

Still, deep concerns persist. US companies’ earnings are set to drop 16 per cent in the first quarter, according to Credit Suisse estimates, and may not fully recover for years. The US economy is also facing a sharp contraction, with 26m Americans losing their jobs in the past five weeks.

That refers to big business but not the smaller business. I posted something about that yesterday.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: obvert
. If you don't recognise the discriminatory history of the US in regard to black and brown Americans, the civil rights movement and the existing legacy of those institutions then it'll be hard to discuss this on the same plane.

Keyword: HISTORY as in ancient history.

Institutionalized Racism simply does not exist anymore.

Every Institution in the US has been providing special treatment to people of color and discriminating against non-people of color for somewhere around thirty years now in a misguided attempt to redress PAST discrimination.

There is no institution in the US today that could even dream of getting away with racist treatment of people of color.

That Institutionalized Racism exists in America today is a leftist fabrication.
Sooner or later you are going to have to step outside of that bubble you are living in.

I believed that was the case until the last five years or so when phone cameras and body cameras revealed how some policemen/policewomen were treating people of colour. What made it institutional was that the "investigations" almost always cleared the officers when the video clearly showed they were over-reacting to minor infractions or ready to respond with deadly force because the individual was a person of colour. Even a guy on his knees, hands up holding up his cell phone was shot. I can't say how widespread the problem is but it came up with alarming regularity for a while.

There are also many reports of unequal sentencing by judges which appears to be related to the race of the person convicted. These were all people who had no prior record to explain the difference in sentencing. Not all judges do this, but if some do - isn't that institutional?

So bubbles seem to exist on all sides ...

I know of a judge who stated in court that he does not like the law so he does not follow it. He also stated that he does not like the case law so he does not go by it. All of the people involved are/were people of colour since they are/were not transparent.

I also know of a person whose ancestors came from Europe who was pepper sprayed by a police officer when he was not violent nor committing a criminal act. He was were he was allowed to be as well.

As far as the videos of incidents as well as other incidents reported in the media, you do not know the whole story. When that comes out, the situation can actually be pretty different. That said, there are always bullies.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.

Ha!

I'm perplexed by your "perpetually offended" post. Speak your mind, good Sir; we want names and identifications so we might better use inoffensive language when addressing the forever offended formites.

It's just good manners - right? [;)][;)]

If people get offended by my language, which language should I use? What translation program/source is recommended?

I need to get a shirt like this, who else wants one:

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


I ask again, and please be specific, "What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?"

I say that everyone is welcome at the table. If I don't care for your attitude or remarks, I will ignore you.

As far as healthcare outcomes, high blood pressure has been proven to start in children. I could even point out the baseball player whose records helped to prove this. That may be genetic but it could also be diet related. That can be socioeconomic but it could also be cultural.

I wasn't not referring to any remark you made, but rather to ones like this:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.

And this:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

When considering the world population whites are a minority, so if black and brown people in the US are having a hard time there are plenty of majority black and brown nations to move to.

MakeeLearn has also stepped in to provide more nuance to his position, which I haven't seen from the Cap.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

When considering the world population whites are a minority, so if black and brown people in the US are having a hard time there are plenty of majority black and brown nations to move to.

Really? Ever tried to move to another country?

Not personally, but thousands find it quite easy to illegally enter ours every month.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


Danny Thomas who helped start St. Jude was Lebanese American, an Arab American. I think that would count as Caucasian, of the three major groupings.

How about: Were you ever fired so your employer could hire someone who fit one of these criteria as in woman, minority, and so on? Or other wise discriminated against for those same reasons? Do you count that as a nightmare?

Grew up watching the Danny Thomas Show. Parents were huge fans for obvious reasons.

The darker brown skinned Arabs probably don't consider themselves Caucasian and would likely find the association offensive considering the historical animosity between the Arab lands and Europe.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

We are going to get limited insights into the reality of racism in America from a demographic that is predominantly made up of older white, male and middle class.

Amusingly enough, that tends to be the exact same demographic that has the least exposure to racism and discrimination.

What a surprise, looking at some of the contributions [8|]

Clueless again I see.

You have little to no knowledge of the personal experiences of any of us with regard to race.

You might have missed where this older, 'white' male shared that he was a target of violence in his youth because of his race.

The notion that whites have never been on the receiving end of racism is as naive as it gets.

They even have a politically correct name for it: so called Reverse Discrimination.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.

I admit that I am a racist. No matter what my kittens think, I believe that the HUMAN race has priority over all other races. No matter that I wake up during the night to tap my kidneys, I will NOT open up a container of moist food for them. [:@]

You and I seem to be complete opposites. I live to serve them.

I feel we owe it to them for having domesticated them and then having turned our back on the responsibility of caring for them.
I think every last human who moves away and leaves their cat behind to fend for itself should be taken out behind the barn and summarily executed with a bulllet to the back of the head.
Can't begin to tell you how many I have taken in who were left behind by their excuses for human being 'owners'.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I ask again, and please be specific, "What remark or remarks did I make that was flippant?"

I say that everyone is welcome at the table. If I don't care for your attitude or remarks, I will ignore you.

As far as healthcare outcomes, high blood pressure has been proven to start in children. I could even point out the baseball player whose records helped to prove this. That may be genetic but it could also be diet related. That can be socioeconomic but it could also be cultural.

I wasn't not referring to any remark you made, but rather to ones like this:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Oh Sweet Baby Jesus! Here it comes. COVID-19 is a racist. America is racist. Healthcare funding is racist. The virus STARTED in an Asian country. In Wuhan 99.9% of the victims were "coloured". It smashed into Queens. Guess who lives in Queens.

That is insufferably ignorant.

And this:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

When considering the world population whites are a minority, so if black and brown people in the US are having a hard time there are plenty of majority black and brown nations to move to.

MakeeLearn has also stepped in to provide more nuance to his position, which I haven't seen from the Cap.

You specifically mentioned me by name then you stated that I made no such remark. That is abusive. So who is actually trying to drive people out of this discussion?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.

Meaning me?

Don't worry, just because I love and have dedicated my life to caring for cats doesn't automatically mean I am a dog hater.

Fact is I love all animals and they seem to reciprocate.

I recall as a teenager one of my brother's friends has an attack trained German Shepherd he constantly warned everyone to stay clear of. My first encounter with Killer resulted with his head in my lap and his tail wagging a hundred miles an hour. Brother's friend was incredulous.

I have a 'way' with animals.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If we manage to get even limited insight, that'll still be immeasurably more than we'll get from a select few.

I admit that I am a racist. No matter what my kittens think, I believe that the HUMAN race has priority over all other races. No matter that I wake up during the night to tap my kidneys, I will NOT open up a container of moist food for them. [:@]

You and I seem to be complete opposites. I live to serve them.

Waking me up at 3 am just to get a couple of mouthfuls of moist food as an appetizer? Then eating kitten kibble? That is a little too much to expect of me.

I will give them some cream if I have it, even some plain yogurt if available. A taste of deli sliced ham, roast beef, or chicken even although they seem to prefer their kitten kibble.

I will even vacuum them although she does not care for it. They both play with the brush when I try to use that. I should take a short video when I next vacuum him and post it.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


Not all judges do this, but if some do - isn't that institutional?

Not even close. It's personal, not institutional. Is it written into the policies and procedures of the institution? If not, then it isn't institutional.

[MakeeLearn]

Millions of farm animals culled as US food supply chain chokes up
US government vets said to be ready to assist with culls, or ‘depopulation’ of pigs, chickens and cattle because of coronavirus meat plant closures

29 Apr 2020


https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... oronavirus



"At least two million animals have already reportedly been culled on farm, and that number is expected to rise. Approved methods for slaughtering poultry include slow suffocation by covering them with foam, or by shutting off the ventilation into the barns.

A nationwide advisory issued last Friday by the US Department of Agriculture and the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service said state veterinarians and government officials would be ready to assist with culls, or “depopulation”, if alternatives could not be found."

[MakeeLearn]

Robber attacks 77-year-old woman with metal pipe to steal her pizza
April 29, 2020

https://news.yahoo.com/robber-attacks-7 ... 23608.html


"A man hit a 77-year-old woman on the head with a metal pipe, before stealing one of her pizzas.

In a video, released by the Tucson police Department, a woman carrying two pizzas attempted to leave Peter Piper Pizza, in Arizona"

"“The suspect was described as a dark-complected Hispanic male, in short stature. 5’6” or shorter. He was also reported to have a ‘wrinkly face,’” the statement read."

[MakeeLearn]

Those previous 2 stories make a nice contrast.

[22sec]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

We are going to get limited insights into the reality of racism in America from a demographic that is predominantly made up of older white, male and middle class.

Amusingly enough, that tends to be the exact same demographic that has the least exposure to racism and discrimination.

What a surprise, looking at some of the contributions [8|]

As a middle age white man in Jackson, Mississippi I fill compelled to share some observations about the reality on the ground in the south between African-Americans and white people. Are there strains, yes, sure old wounds take time to heal. For the most part, we live together in harmony with our neighbors our co-workers. We shop and eat, well use to eat, at the same places. We go to the same fishing holes. Our kids go to school together, play on the same teams together. These are friends, we share church pews together. So, while I as a middle aged white male, may not have the exact same perspective as my AA neighbor, we are all in this living and working together in peace and harmony as we are commanded. So, I’d rather not have someone with zero perspective, say from Scotland, chime in on the matter. Most of us Southerners, black and white, are working towards loving thy neighbor.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


Millions of farm animals culled as US food supply chain chokes up
US government vets said to be ready to assist with culls, or ‘depopulation’ of pigs, chickens and cattle because of coronavirus meat plant closures

29 Apr 2020


https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... oronavirus

"At least two million animals have already reportedly been culled on farm, and that number is expected to rise. Approved methods for slaughtering poultry include slow suffocation by covering them with foam, or by shutting off the ventilation into the barns.

A nationwide advisory issued last Friday by the US Department of Agriculture and the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service said state veterinarians and government officials would be ready to assist with culls, or “depopulation”, if alternatives could not be found."

Too bad, there are a lot of places that could butcher them.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: 22sec

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

We are going to get limited insights into the reality of racism in America from a demographic that is predominantly made up of older white, male and middle class.

Amusingly enough, that tends to be the exact same demographic that has the least exposure to racism and discrimination.

What a surprise, looking at some of the contributions [8|]

As a middle age white man in Jackson, Mississippi I fill compelled to share some observations about the reality on the ground in the south between African-Americans and white people. Are there strains, yes, sure old wounds take time to heal. For the most part, we live together in harmony with our neighbors our co-workers. We shop and eat, well use to eat, at the same places. We go to the same fishing holes. Our kids go to school together, play on the same teams together. These are friends, we share church pews together. So, while I as a middle aged white male, may not have the exact same perspective as my AA neighbor, we are all in this living and working together in peace and harmony as we are commanded. So, I’d rather not have someone with zero perspective, say from Scotland, chime in on the matter. Most of us Southerners, black and white, are working towards loving thy neighbor.

+1 Amen to that brother.

[Canoerebel]

I didn't have any forumites in mind - just the general notion that we have to be careful to qualify everything we say today, even meaningless posts about a preference between dogs and cats, or cats and dogs, or butterflies and stamp collecting, or Yankees or Mets, etc.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ranger Joe, I hope my comment about canines and felines was sufficiently clear that you didn't think my "perpetually offended" caveat was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was aimed at the perpetually offended.

Meaning me?

Don't worry, just because I love and have dedicated my life to caring for cats doesn't automatically mean I am a dog hater.

Fact is I love all animals and they seem to reciprocate.

I recall as a teenager one of my brother's friends has an attack trained German Shepherd he constantly warned everyone to stay clear of. My first encounter with Killer resulted with his head in my lap and his tail wagging a hundred miles an hour. Brother's friend was incredulous.

I have a 'way' with animals.