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John 3rd
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Slowing Things Down...

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: FatR

So, about hindering Japan early...

The thing is, by the very nature of AE, operations in the game tend to unfold very rapidly, compared to RL, and you can't really buy as much time as in RL by trading territory for it. There are three main contributing factors to that:

1)Easy logistics. The RL complexity is reduced to providing fuel and supplies, only supplies to bases that aren't supposed to support fleet operations. And supply equation is such, that players often don't need to bother with secure naval lines of communication in the short term. Both sides also have sealifting capacity well in excess of their needs. Allies, in particular, have rather limited economic needs, and this gives them vast reserves of shipping that can be freely sacrificed to fuel military operations.

I'm not sure if anything can be done with this aspect of the game. A blanket reduction in ship cargo capacity will make feeding military operations in distant theatres more challenging, but also will impact Japanese economics rather hard. Now, I don't mind this aspect of the game to be more challenging, as in the game Japanese happen to have a significant surplus of merchants, instead of their RL constant shortage, but such profound changes are very hard to balance. I'm also not sure if other people really care about playing Transport Tycoon of the Pacific (I know you don't John, and often find micromanaging small convoys annoying myself).

2)Easy base building. Not even talking of extra perks Japanese get here in RA, in Scen 2 I made Tulagi into an airbase capable of launching attack missions (size 2) in about a month, without even a major commitment of construction units. Well, we all know how long it took Japanese to construct an operational airfield there in RL. Of course, this works even better for Allies. They can drop a bunch of troops in dot hexes and turn them into an airfield cluster of doom in a week or two - moves like this are more limited by amphibious capability than base-building one. Constructing an airfied capable of operating unlimited number of aircraft might take only about a month later in the game. This "Instant Base - Just Add Supplies" capability makes offensive operations faster and vastly reduces dependency on existing bases, allowing offensives also to be bolder. It is probably the main factor that makes deeply unrealistic Japanese moves, like early assault on Hawaii or moving into Southern Pacific with Rabaul as the closest forward base quite viable. It's also one of the main factors that allows the classic war-winning Allied gambit of jumping into a currently weakly-developed but strategically important region in force (like Cuttlefish was defeated by Q-Ball; I avoided this fate in my Ocean of Blood game only by destroying Allied carrier fleet).

In certain situations, this can make the game harder for Allies - if they fail to push back until about second half of 1943, they are likely to face the Japanese perimeter that looks like Atlantikwall and Maginot Line combined. But I believe such situation to be just a sympthom of deeper failings on the Allied player's part.

If it is possible to adjust the speed at which engineers work, I don't know how to do this. So, the only way of fixing the situation seems to be going through TOEs and cutting the number of construction troops at least in half for both sides (for Japanese - from their increased number in Scen 70, to keep the intended bonus).

3)Players' greater risk tolerance, loss tolerance and willingness to outright sacrifice troops, ships and planes, compared to RL planners. Affects the Japanese side too, as many players do not mind expending assets that will be useless late in the war anyway, but mostly impacts how the Allies are willing to act, compared to RL.
Nothing really can be done about this aspect, except outsmarting and punishing one's opponent for his aggressiveness[:)].


As a consequence of all this, Japan in AE generally cannot be satisfied with the historical conquests, even with a few additions to complete the defensive perimeter, like Port Moresby. At the very least, the Japanese player must take Northern Australia, to safeguard Eastern DEI, that has a ton of dot bases and therefore is extremely vulnerable to an early, or even not-so-early Allied counterattack. Ideally, he should strike farther, to destroy Allied assets and disrupt their buildup whenever possible, and strike early, before the amphibious bonus will run out, and every Allied base of note will require a month of fighting to seize. Southern Pacific seems to be a rather popular direction for such assault, although after trying this direction for myself I'm not liking it very much. This requires bold advance and swift destruction of Allied forces in Malaya and DEI.
Conversely, a major slowdown in Phase 1 (reaching the historical perimeter) usually spells total disaster for Japanese. Again, see even my own example in Ocean of Blood AAR, Cuttlefish vs. Q-Ball and Aussies vs. Amis examples, heck, even Nemo121's game as an extreme example of what might happens when the Japanese player commits particularly grievous mistakes during the initial expansion phase.

And unless something is done to offset above-mentioned factors (those we can do anything about), I'm quite strongly opposed to make the initial DEI conquest harder. Yes, I know, in RL it was far from almost-sure thing it is in AE. But our goal with RA is to faciliate long-lasting campaigns that remain interesting as long as possible, and in the current metagame introducing small immediate bonuses for Allies at the start can give them an advantage snowballing in importance as the game goes on, and possibly shortening it by a year or two. In particular, significant reinforcement of Palembang, the base any Allied player who feels like hurting the enemy to the best of his ability, should already be reinforcing from Day 1, in hopes of causing severe damage to oil and refineries on capture, is likely to be very harmful for the Japanese in the long term.

Initial Comment: Damn.

This is well thought out and insightful Sir. I had to read it two or three times to really wrap my mind around your commentary. It is excellent.

OK.

1. Easy Logistics--Working in this area is a can or worms.

I personally like the idea of reducing carrying capacity of AKs/TKs/AKLs/etc...but it would be a NIGHTMARE to work on. To a certain extent the developers have already moved in this direction. Remember the original WitP?!!

Of course in RA we've already thrown a major handicap at the Japanese by making things tougher with a reduced fuel/supply stockpile. You are correct in that I truly HATE this side of the war but it is a necessity.

2. Easy Base-Building---This is more workable:

a. One could go through and reduce the engineers as described above. This could be done. Be a lot of work but do-able for someone who is methodic. I like this idea as the most simple solution.

b. A second thought would be to reduce those dot hexes and lower base possibilities. This would mean serious map work and might be quite difficult as well.

Your summation of what a Japanese player MUST do to simply secure the perimeter is spot-on. I feel that I must (by May 42) have Aleutians, South Pacific including PM, NW Australia, and ALL of Burma. Could the Japanese have done this IRL? NO. Simple as that but nearly all JFB feel they have do to simply forestall an early Allied counter.

I wish there would be some form of negative VP allowed for NOT fighting for locations. Something like if Soerabaja falls Feb 1, 1942--lose 200 VP, Soer falls Feb 15th lose 100 VP. This frustration goes to the Sir Robin defense. The Allied Player KNOWS the Japanese most be offensive in the extreme so many don't put up a real fight.

Anyone who has played the Japanese knows this is the exact opposite route one should take because the Japanese cannot replace early losses. An Allied player can lose a couple of CVs, BBs, and support ships because THEY WILL BE REPLACED. Not so the Japanese...

This could turn into a rant so I'll stop.

Got to say you really got the juices flowing with this Posting FatR!

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John 3rd
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: FatR

About carriers, I would strongly prefer to remove all forced resizing and give both players the ability to choose whatever combinations they prefer from the beginning. The starting composition should be left alone, mostly because of PH strike.

As about optimal resize composition, if one is to be included, I would prefer this (assuming no overstack by default) for early war:

Akagi (81,54T): 27F,27DB,27TB
Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku (72,54T): 18F,27DB,27TB
Hiryu (71,48T): 20F,27DB,24TB
Soryu (63,48T): 18F,21DB,24TB

For main KB I'm putting emphazis on bombers because without radar warning the extra fighters on CAP might be of rather limited use against a full carrier strike, and Zero superiority ensures that anything smaller will be dealt with. This should be changed by the player once Japanese ships start to get radards.

Ryujo (48,36T): 30F,18TB
Zuiho, Shoho (30,24T): 18F,12TB
Hosho (20,12T): 14F,6TB
Junyo, Hiyo (58,24T):30F,16DB,12TB
Nisshin (30,27T):16F,14TB

More fighters on those, because they are likely to operate as separate Mini-KB early and will need to deal with Allied LBA when covering invasions and so on.

As you see, I prefer the number of TBs to be 1/2 of the number of torps. This will allow to launch two fully torpedo-armed strikes on the day of the carrier battle, and, because of near-inevitable losses before the second strike, will leave something for mopping-up on the next day.

Unlike the previous response, this one is easy. I agree with your thinking here and would only tinker with the numbers you propose. Think Michael, you and me are on the same page here...
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Local Yokel
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by Local Yokel »

Regarding the aircraft capacity of the big Japanese carriers, you might find the discussion in this thread of interest.

I remain mystified by the decision made for the stock game to attribute a capacity of 71 aircraft to Hiryu and 72 aircraft to Kaga, when the hangar capacity of the former is little more than half that of the latter.

I am currently using the Babes Lite mod as a testbed for a few changes of my own to Japanese ships (introducing the old armoured cruisers Izumo and Iwate, and also Kotobuki Maru) in which I have increased Kaga's capacity to 81 and decreased Hiryu's to 63. I am uncertain as to what capacity should be assigned to the Shokaku class. I have kept them at 72 in my testbed mod, but I think there's a good case for giving them a somewhat greater capacity, although not so large as that of Kaga and Akagi.
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by John 3rd »

Wasn't it Shattered Sword that made the case for 81 on Kaga. The author stated that she was the roomiest of all the CVs--for a covered wagon.

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John 3rd
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Carrier air unit composition

Post by John 3rd »

Let us actually open this up. I would make the following air group proposal for the KB:

CarDiv1
Akagi
78 Planes-24Z, 27V, 27K
Kaga
81 Planes-27Z, 27V, 27K

CarDiv2
Hiryu
68 Planes-24Z, 21V, 21K
Soryu
63 Planes-21Z, 21V, 21K

CarDiv5
Shokaku
72 Planes-24Z, 24V, 24K
Zuikaku
72 Planes-24Z, 24V, 24K
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John 3rd
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Carrier air unit composition--CVL

Post by John 3rd »

Let us move to the smaller CVs:

Hosho
20 Planes--14Z and 6K

Ryujo
48 Planes--30Z and 18K

CVLs (Zuiho, Shoho, etc...)
30 Planes--18 Zero and 12 Kate

Junyos
58 Planes--27Z, 18V, 12K

Sho-Kai
81 Planes--33Z, 24V, 24K

Late-War CVLs (Ibuki/Sister)
48 Planes--30Z and 18K

Those are my thoughts...
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by ny59giants »

Akagi (81,54T): 27F,27DB,27TB I agree with this change
Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku (72,54T): 18F,27DB,27TB I would go with 27F, 18DB, 27TB
Hiryu (71,48T): 20F,27DB,24TB I would go with 27F, 20DB, 24TB
Soryu (63,48T): 18F,21DB,24TB I would go with 21F, 18DB, 24TB

For main KB I'm putting emphazis on bombers because without radar warning the extra fighters on CAP might be of rather limited use against a full carrier strike, and Zero superiority ensures that anything smaller will be dealt with. This should be changed by the player once Japanese ships start to get radards.

Ryujo (48,36T): 30F,18TB
Zuiho, Shoho (30,24T): 18F,12TB
Hosho (20,12T): 14F,6TB
Junyo, Hiyo (58,24T):30F,16DB,12TB
Nisshin (30,27T):16F,14TB

I favor a more heavy fighter presence vs more DBs with KB to ensure any strike gets through and even a few more fighters on CAP will help minimize the possibility of a few lucky SBDs planting a few extra 1000 lb bombs on those fragile flight decks. Ask John if he feels a few more fighters would have been enough to save Soryu and Hiryu off of India.
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John 3rd
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by John 3rd »

As my Economics Minister and personal COUNCILOR Michael should know about not re-opening OLD wounds!

I like more Fighters but think the Japanese OFFENSIVE mentality needs to be reflected at war's start. When we do away with auto-resizing then each player can do the changes that they want...

I also like to work in the Japanese plane structure groups: 9 or 12, 18 or 21, 24 or 27.

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BigBadWolf
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by BigBadWolf »

What's your experience with those 88 AA guns? Is it worth the trouble of pulling them out of HI and sending them to the front?
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FatR
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by FatR »

I haven't had much of a chance to put a large number of them in action, and small numbers of AA guns are generally ineffective...

I'm a bit too busy to post more right now, but I'll be back in a day or two.
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John 3rd
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by John 3rd »

Same boat as Stanislav regarding time at the moment, however, I am TRYING to find out if they are effective in Eastern India within my game right now!
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by bklooste »

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

Regarding the aircraft capacity of the big Japanese carriers, you might find the discussion in this thread of interest.

I remain mystified by the decision made for the stock game to attribute a capacity of 71 aircraft to Hiryu and 72 aircraft to Kaga, when the hangar capacity of the former is little more than half that of the latter.

I am currently using the Babes Lite mod as a testbed for a few changes of my own to Japanese ships (introducing the old armoured cruisers Izumo and Iwate, and also Kotobuki Maru) in which I have increased Kaga's capacity to 81 and decreased Hiryu's to 63. I am uncertain as to what capacity should be assigned to the Shokaku class. I have kept them at 72 in my testbed mod, but I think there's a good case for giving them a somewhat greater capacity, although not so large as that of Kaga and Akagi.

Very interesting thread Yokel and it would appear the larger carriers were limited by doctrine/ production / squadron sizing /Extra fuel rather than space.
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bklooste
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by bklooste »

Are the BCs and accelerating CVs a trap ?

That is to say the HI cost is so high it may damage the fuel stocks / long term capability to wage war ?
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John 3rd
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by John 3rd »

I accelerate the last Sho-Kai and then the late-war Unryus. No problem there at all.

The BCs will come in when they come in. Not rushing them at all but I am building them.
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Carrier Air Groups

Post by John 3rd »

Thanks for Posting the above Threads on the topic of Air Group numbers on the KB and CV Capacity. It made me pullout Kaigun, Shattered Sword, and Sunburst. Working through the numbers and argument I would make the following air group proposal for Japanese CVs:

CarDiv1
Akagi
75 Planes-21Z, 27V, 27K

Kaga
81 Planes-27Z, 27V, 27K

CarDiv2
Hiryu
69 Planes-21Z, 24V, 24K

Soryu
63 Planes-21Z, 21V, 21K

CarDiv5
Shokaku
72 Planes-24Z, 24V, 24K

Zuikaku
72 Planes-24Z, 24V, 24K

Smaller CVs and War-Time Construction:

Hosho
20 Planes--14Z and 6K

Ryujo
48 Planes--30Z and 18K

CVLs (Zuiho, Shoho, etc...)
30 Planes--18 Zero and 12 Kate

Junyos
58 Planes--27Z, 18V, 12K

Sho-Kai
81 Planes--33Z, 24V, 24K

Unryus
63 Planes—27Z, 18V, 18K

Late-War CVLs (Ibuki/Sister)
48 Planes--30Z and 18K



These numbers seem to be an average of what is spoken on. Since we assume no crippling shortage of CV Aircraft or pilots at the start of the war, these air groups will be fully fleshed out and ready to go for December 7th.

Additional Thoughts:
1. We would start all CVs with older aircraft so no ‘cheating’ could occur with bringing in new planes that are not in production yet for Japan.

2. No auto re-size. The player can make the choice.

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Set-Up and Air Groups

Post by John 3rd »

Stanislav, Michael, and BK: I am going to go through the Mod and make the changes we have agreed on. Do any of you have comments pertaining to my responses to Stanislav (Post 639/640) or the Air Group Composition detailed above?

Hope to work on this tomorrow (Saturday).
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RE: Carrier air unit composition

Post by bklooste »


You can always build up Naval points but you wont know till late 44, 45...the impact on your oil / fuel .1000 Naval points = 3000 HI /day which buys a lot of aircraft...
ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I accelerate the last Sho-Kai and then the late-war Unryus. No problem there at all.

The BCs will come in when they come in. Not rushing them at all but I am building them.
Sho-Kai and then the late-war Unryus. No problem there at all.

The BCs will come in when they come in. Not rushing them at all but I am building them.
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bklooste
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RE: Carrier Air Groups

Post by bklooste »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Thanks for Posting the above Threads on the topic of Air Group numbers on the KB and CV Capacity. It made me pullout Kaigun, Shattered Sword, and Sunburst. Working through the numbers and argument I would make the following air group proposal for Japanese CVs:

CarDiv1
Akagi
75 Planes-21Z, 27V, 27K

Kaga
81 Planes-27Z, 27V, 27K

CarDiv2
Hiryu
69 Planes-21Z, 24V, 24K

Soryu
63 Planes-21Z, 21V, 21K

CarDiv5
Shokaku
72 Planes-24Z, 24V, 24K

Zuikaku
72 Planes-24Z, 24V, 24K

Smaller CVs and War-Time Construction:

Hosho
20 Planes--14Z and 6K

Ryujo
48 Planes--30Z and 18K

CVLs (Zuiho, Shoho, etc...)
30 Planes--18 Zero and 12 Kate

Junyos
58 Planes--27Z, 18V, 12K

Sho-Kai
81 Planes--33Z, 24V, 24K

Unryus
63 Planes—27Z, 18V, 18K

Late-War CVLs (Ibuki/Sister)
48 Planes--30Z and 18K



These numbers seem to be an average of what is spoken on. Since we assume no crippling shortage of CV Aircraft or pilots at the start of the war, these air groups will be fully fleshed out and ready to go for December 7th.

Additional Thoughts:
1. We would start all CVs with older aircraft so no ‘cheating’ could occur with bringing in new planes that are not in production yet for Japan.

2. No auto re-size. The player can make the choice.

Sho-Kai and then the late-war Unryus. No problem there at all.

The BCs will come in when they come in. Not rushing them at all but I am building them.

Why is Akagi less than Kaga ? This sounds like the PH but the capacity was higher than what she carried, that what Yokel is arguing. She had more capacity but for PH carried oil drums then later on there were not enough recruits / air frames.

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John 3rd
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RE: Carrier Air Groups

Post by John 3rd »

Should Akagi be higher? Everything seems (to me) to point towards Kaga having the largest air group. Am I wrong here?
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RE: Carrier Air Groups

Post by JWE »

had some extensive off-line discussions with John Palmer (Local Yokel) on this, and am tweaking Babes so Akagi/Kaga have 81, Hiryu/Soryu have 63 and Sho/Zuikaku have 72. Think John and bklooste are right, the ships had the capacity, but the airgroup size was determined by other factors.

Have no comment on your airgroup sizes or arrangements, just think that the ships shouldn't be penalized by airgroup size choices.

Don't forget there's a 15% 'over capacity' allowance, too. So Akagi/Kaga can "max out" at 93 (airgroups of 27/27/27 with 12 spares); Sho/Zuikaku can "max out" at 82(airgroups of 27/27/18 with 10 spares); Hiryu/Soryu can "max out" at 72 (airgroups of 27/18/18 with 9 spares), or whatever airgroup sizes strike your fancy to total up to 81, 72 and 63. [;)]
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