Comprehensive Wishlist

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jmlima
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

What you will find isn't entirely to my liking. Wadis were obstructions to movement; however, the piece comments that they only seem to have been used as the basis for a defensive line once -- and in that case the defenders actually wound up deploying forward of the wadi.

So, let me get this straight: You didn't find any examples of them being used in defense either!
...
[/quote]

Not wanting to be the judge on who has got the bigger one, but, the examples I posted above include Wadis used in defence, one of them including the mining of the Wadi base et all.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

What you will find isn't entirely to my liking. Wadis were obstructions to movement; however, the piece comments that they only seem to have been used as the basis for a defensive line once -- and in that case the defenders actually wound up deploying forward of the wadi.

So, let me get this straight: You didn't find any examples of them being used in defense either!
...
Not wanting to be the judge on who has got the bigger one, but, the examples I posted above include Wadis used in defence, one of them including the mining of the Wadi base et all.

Maybe I missed something, but you refer to one example of the bottom of a wadi being mined. You provide no information if that was to use it as part of a defensive line, or simply to make it take even longer to cross the wadi than it would otherwise.

A wadi is going to channel movement into those points where it can be easily crossed. That makes it a good point to put mines. That doesn't mean it has defensive value.

...Of course, how true that is depends on what we mean by 'wadi.' It just means 'dry river bed.' It can be almost anything. Apparently, most 'wadis' in North Africa weren't substantial enough to serve as defensive positions.

In fact, this is what you propose:

"...In that context, yes, you have similar problems, but a clear and obstructed major wadi poses no issues to the actual 'crossing', assuming an egress route in the banks, but gives the defenders an advantage point..."

That's pretty much the opposite of what Bayerlein et al observe. They say (or imply) that wadis in North Africa had no value for defense, but were obstructions to movement. As course as with many terms, what effects a wadi does or does not have depends on what wadi we're talking about. However, the document makes me think that I might go back and replace many of those North African wadis with 'rocky.'
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Panama
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

The conclusions I've gathered out of all of this are these:

A wadi is as shallow as a dinner plate or as deep as the Grand Canyon.

You can shoot out of it with a direct fire weapon or you'll need a large rocket.

You can walk out of one without undue exertion or you need rock climbing gear. Perhaps a helicopter would be faster.

It would appear the 'wadi' term needs to be replaced with 'shallow dry riverbed' since a wadi is vastly variable in scope.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

The conclusions I've gathered out of all of this are these:

A wadi is as shallow as a dinner plate or as deep as the Grand Canyon.

You can shoot out of it with a direct fire weapon or you'll need a large rocket.

You can walk out of one without undue exertion or you need rock climbing gear. Perhaps a helicopter would be faster.

It would appear the 'wadi' term needs to be replaced with 'shallow dry riverbed' since a wadi is vastly variable in scope.

'Shallow dry riverbeds' would be almost equally variable in scope. It's a question of what one represents in a scenario and how one represents it.

Many or most wadis probably shouldn't be on the map at all -- particularly at the larger scales. Something that is of no defensive value and involves perhaps an extra hour to cross simply shouldn't be on the map if one MP represents four hours of movement.

Ones that do impose a significant delay would best be represented with the 'rocky' or 'sandy' tile -- 'rocky' in particular isn't all that visually obtrusive, and often these areas are pretty rocky anyway.

Then there are bigger ones. I haven't read anything to dissuade me from my view that these should be handled similarly to rivers. As to that nonsense about wadis being akin to trenches -- well, that tells us a lot about Curtis. It's not very interesting otherwise.

Depending on the circs, I could represent a 'wadi' in any one of five ways.

1. I could not represent it at all.

2. I could represent it with some terrain type that is mildly obstructive to movement but has no combat effect. In fact, I might substitute some kind of faded-out 'wadi' tile for the 'cropland' tile and use that in the application I'm thinking of. I could do without cropland, I think. Maybe not...

3. I could use 'canal' with the 'wadi' tile substituted. That's what I do now for your basic 30-60 foot deep ravine running across the countryside.

4. I could line this 'canal' with escarpments.

5. I could line it with major escarpments. This I generally do if we're talking about what appears to be 1:1 gradient or worse climbing up for several hundred feet or a whole hexside worth of sheer cliffs.

Otherwise, I sometimes put badlands along the bottom when we're dealing with something where motorized movement along the wadi itself or through the adjacent terrain is obviously right out. Happily, generally if one zooms in enough on Google Earth, it'll show everything down to the most insignificant tracks. Even if the road wasn't there in 1940, the inference is that movement is possible.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by BillLottJr »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

..but first let's increase the number of place names. Any 300x300 map is going to run out of place names. Hell, a lot of smaller ones do.

In 3.4, the mapOptional bitmaps will put even more demand on the finite number of placenames.

(From the 3.4 draft read-me)
PlaceNames
#1-3 in a placename selects the font Placename 1-3.
<1-9 in a placename select the mapOptional1-9 bitmap. You can select multiple bitmaps.

#1Test will display Test in the PlacenameFont1 style.
<1OilRig Will display mapOptional1.bmp on the map, and OilRig in any combat reports, on the info line, etc
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Huh. So an artillery unit which is cut off and fires for ten rounds at 1% supply will disappear ten times faster than the same unit firing for just one round?

It's an abstraction, and you've just given an extreme case. Clearly, if they started at 100% supply, the one firing ten times would disappear much faster. Regardless, at 1% they're both going to be disappearing fast. Being unsupplied in TOAW is a bitch.

But being at 1% supply lets you keep banging away. As long as your enemy's red-light too, it works just fine. Moving this over to the thread it should be on...

...moved.

It occurs to me that one solution might be to let infantry and other non-motorized, non-artillery icon units continue as at present -- but all motorized, aircraft, and artillery-icon units could go into 'negative supply.' Their combat values could continue to be calculated as at present -- but any unit in such a state at the start of a turn would automatically enter re-org and stay there until it had regained positive supply.

This wouldn't be ideal, and of course Curtis will continue to stomp around, but it seems to me (a) relatively doable, and (b) a closer approximation of reality than what we currently have.

One thing I really like about this is that it would encourage players to rest up for the 'big push' and/or hold the units intended for the counterattack out of the fray until der Tag. If all your artillery and tanks are at 20-30% supply, sure you can go ahead and attack -- but assuming a few rounds, everything's going to shut down next turn. If you want your Bagration, you'd better let everybody get to green light before you go.
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jmlima
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
...
It occurs to me that one solution might be to let infantry and other non-motorized, non-artillery icon units continue as at present -- but all motorized, aircraft, and artillery-icon units could go into 'negative supply.' Their combat values could continue to be calculated as at present -- but any unit in such a state at the start of a turn would automatically enter re-org and stay there until it had regained positive supply.
...

Let me put in a second vote for this.
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Panama
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
...
It occurs to me that one solution might be to let infantry and other non-motorized, non-artillery icon units continue as at present -- but all motorized, aircraft, and artillery-icon units could go into 'negative supply.' Their combat values could continue to be calculated as at present -- but any unit in such a state at the start of a turn would automatically enter re-org and stay there until it had regained positive supply.
...

Let me put in a second vote for this.

Aye, and me a third. In fact, I would go a bit further. A tank regiment with no mobility is a maginot line with no infantry. Reduce their defense.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It's an abstraction, and you've just given an extreme case. Clearly, if they started at 100% supply, the one firing ten times would disappear much faster. Regardless, at 1% they're both going to be disappearing fast. Being unsupplied in TOAW is a bitch.

But being at 1% supply lets you keep banging away. As long as your enemy's red-light too, it works just fine.

Not in the case I listed. If the unit is unsupplied, it's going to wither away.

I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm just saying any claim that guns never stop firing or tanks never run out of gas in TOAW is false. There is a specific situation where they do so - when unsupplied. That needs to be extended, though (see below).
It occurs to me that one solution might be to let infantry and other non-motorized, non-artillery icon units continue as at present -- but all motorized, aircraft, and artillery-icon units could go into 'negative supply.' Their combat values could continue to be calculated as at present -- but any unit in such a state at the start of a turn would automatically enter re-org and stay there until it had regained positive supply.

This wouldn't be ideal, and of course Curtis will continue to stomp around, but it seems to me (a) relatively doable, and (b) a closer approximation of reality than what we currently have.

One thing I really like about this is that it would encourage players to rest up for the 'big push' and/or hold the units intended for the counterattack out of the fray until der Tag. If all your artillery and tanks are at 20-30% supply, sure you can go ahead and attack -- but assuming a few rounds, everything's going to shut down next turn. If you want your Bagration, you'd better let everybody get to green light before you go.

Step one in implementing this would be to give Ralph a lobotomy. As I've pointed out, it actually facilitates offensives continuing indefinitely because it is more harmful to the defense than the offense. The offense would only have to rest their armor and artillery. The defense would have to abandon theirs. Add that there's no direct correlation between the unit's icon and what equipment it actually contains.

Item 5.9 (Over-Extended Supply) in the Wishlist addresses this more realistically. The problem with TOAW is that there is no "tentative" supply condition. You're either "supplied", which is very beneficial, or "unsupplied" which is very deleterious. There's nothing inbetween. This would add a third supply state that would have properties of both. If in this state, you would have a line of communications and would still receive supply and replacements. But you would also suffer attrition similar to being unsupplied (but losses would go to the pools instead of the dead pile). This state would be triggered if the hex had a supply level below the designer set level. (So, if the setting was 10, then any hex with 9 supply or less would be "Over-Extended".

Once in this condition, units would have to slow-down / pause to recover supply sufficiently to keep above the unit supply level that would cause them attrition (or even wait for the full supply net to catch up to them) or find themselves withering away. The defender, in contrast, would be falling back on his full supply net, and would be better able to make a stand.

This would directly address the "infinite" supply line problem. As well as the need to pause after an advance to build up supply.

The other issue here is the lack of any breakdown of supply into its components. One reason the movement reduction for 1% supply is not that great is that the game doesn't keep track of what the supply was expended on. You can get to 1% firing without moving a single hex, or you can get there moving around without firing a shot. The game doesn't really know how you got there.

If we had Component Supply (Wishlist Item 5.14) that could be accounted for. So, supply could be broken down into fuel and ammo. Then moving would use only fuel and fighting would use only ammo. Then there could be justification for making the penalties for being 1% in either more stringent for the associated function. Of course, there could be more breakdown further, but I think those two would be enough for a while. The breakdown wouldn't need to take place until the supply got to the unit (for simplicity purposes).

The other wishlist item I'm hawking is Item 5.6 (Mobile Supply Points). This would crudely facilitate sea supply, and would be a stepping stone to discrete supply / tonnage supply, etc.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Step one in implementing this would be to give Ralph a lobotomy...

Yes Curtis. It's always nice to deal with someone who can be counted on to be consistent.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


The offense would only have to rest their armor and artillery. The defense would have to abandon theirs.

It's perfectly possible to address that objection.

But there's no point in describing how. Roadblock LeMay will stand firm...
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jmlima
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
...

Step one in implementing this would be to give Ralph a lobotomy. ...

I'm sorry to say, but once you decide to put in a sweeping statement like this, I would like to hear on Ralph's words, why would he require a lobotomy to implement the change proposed. In fact, I think we would all like to hear him about that.

From my experience in developing games, I'm beginning to have an idea of what's happening here, so I would really like to hear more from Ralph on the changes being proposed on this thread in particular, and why he would be require to be lobotomised before implementing some of them.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

Sigh...

It is a valid objection, regardless of the source. Defending mechanized units would find themselves unable to retreat. The universal 'Fuhrer order.'

So...

The quick 'n dirty solution is to only allow units to go to a state of 'negative supply' in their half of the turn. It seems to me that it would be fairly easy to make the program could simply restore all units not meeting that qualification to 1% supply when the turn ends.

Now the defender can move away. Of course, any of his mechanized units that have been depleted will now fall below 1% and not be able to move the next turn.

This is not necessarily bad -- particularly if certain other changes I am about to propose turn out to be practical. After all, it would force defenders to actually post rear guards so as to allow his retreat to occur in an organized fashion.

One concomitant change that occurs to me is to increase the mechanized movement rate. After all, we are now talking about a device that will totally immobilize mechanized units who fall below a certain value in the course of their turn. It would follow that the 'normal' mechanized movement rate should be increased -- and in fact, as matters stand, it's impossible in TOAW to replicate the advances well-supplied mechanized units did stage.

So that strikes me as a good thing anyway -- and it has the happy advantage of allowing exhausted defending mechanized units to pull back far enough in one turn so that they can sit and recover when 'negative supply' immobilizes them the turn after that.

We now have a paradigm where mechanized units can indeed stage truly striking advances -- but will come to a halt after a certain interval. This is what in fact repeatedly happened in World War Two.

Another thought, which is more elaborate, but which could conceivably also work well, is to have the program read all mechanized equipment in an exhausted unit as static. So you could keep moving -- but your unit would be a shell. This also is what effectively happens. Retreating armies do become disorganized masses useless for combat. They then stop, recover their cohesion, collect replacement equipment, and become able to fight once again. Something like this could simulate the German retreat from Normandy very well, for example. The Germans manage to fall back to the Rhine and regroup.

More importantly, since the unit is temporarily worthless for combat, this would allow armies to retreat regardless of their supply condition, but would render it almost impossible to conduct an opposed advanced without pausing at some point. Again, this is what in fact repeatedly happened in World War Two.
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Panama
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Step one in implementing this would be to give Ralph a lobotomy. As I've pointed out, it actually facilitates offensives continuing indefinitely because it is more harmful to the defense than the offense. The offense would only have to rest their armor and artillery. The defense would have to abandon theirs. Add that there's no direct correlation between the unit's icon and what equipment it actually contains.

First off, I think Ralph would be better served if he were to be given a large club to bludgeon us all with.

How would the defense having to abandon their armor/artillery be ahistorical? It's happened time and again. I'm perplexed as to why it would be bad. Also, there have been offensives that have 'run out of gas' as it were and ended up having to abandon their equipment too. Popov's armored group in the Ukraine comes to mind.

I do like your proposal for breaking supply down into two parts. At least it would force people to stop playing a game and start playing a simulation. But then alot of people like the games so I can see a necessity for a simple supply button. Maybe call it the 'Grognard off' button.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




If we had Component Supply (Wishlist Item 5.14) that could be accounted for. So, supply could be broken down into fuel and ammo. Then moving would use only fuel and fighting would use only ammo. Then there could be justification for making the penalties for being 1% in either more stringent for the associated function. Of course, there could be more breakdown further, but I think those two would be enough for a while. The breakdown wouldn't need to take place until the supply got to the unit (for simplicity purposes).


The difficulty here is that units don't use fuel and ammo at the same rates.

Artillery that receives one tenth of its full supply of shells can do about a fifth of the damage it could otherwise; it can hold its fire until the target is really good, but at the end of the day, it needs tons of ammo to be of much use. Worse, in a lot of armies, fuel will be needed to bring that ammo up.

Infantry, on the other hand, can remain at least defensively quite potent with a minimum of ammunition; the requirements are almost absurdly modest compared to that required by tanks and artillery to remain useful. One 105 mm round weighs around 40 pounds -- that's the equivalent of a thousand or so rifle-caliber bullets. Bring up a ton of ammunition to your artillery battalion and it'll burn through it in four salvos. Bring up a ton of rifle ammunition to your infantry battalion and you've got forty rounds per man -- quite enough to stave off anything but a determined attacker. It's twelve pieces that can fire four times each versus eight hundred pieces that can fire forty times each.

This helps to explain why the Stalingrad pocket could hold out for so long, among other things. The tanks and artillery quickly became capable of only the most limited resistance -- but the infantry could still fight.

Similarly with fuel, of course. Given a reasonably well-settled region, foot infantry and cavalry can keep moving almost indefinitely; they'll start to get a little frayed, but they can push on. Tanks and trucks, of course, simply stop. That is unless either (a) they can bring up fuel (and again, a lot of it) or (b) the enemy has been good enough to leave some behind.

This helps to explain why the Russians continued to field cavalry. It gave them continued offensive mobility even in the absence of supply.

The distinction between fuel and ammunition strikes me as largely flawed. First, forces that have enough ammunition generally have enough fuel, and vice-versa. Secondly, for a lot of forces, fuel is needed to get the ammunition. Thirdly, those forces that need large physical quantities of ammunition to fight often need large quantities of fuel to fight as well, while conversely, those forces with modest ammunition requirements often have no fuel requirements at all.

Finally, of course, there are those forces (hores-drawn artillery) that need lots of ammunition to fight, but have no fuel requirements whatsoever -- either for fighting or for moving. They do need fodder -- but that may or may not be obtainable locally, depending on the circumstances. Also, a horse keeps running for a while without 'fuel.' Not so a truck.

So while in an ideal world distinguishing between all types of supply would be good, this strikes me as something that would definitely complicate the game but whose benefits would be questionable. In the end, we are managing as a one-man team in our spare time what is normally the sole occupation of thousands of trained personnel -- who often muff the job at that. We don't want a perfectly detailed simulation. What we want is one where the generalizations reflect what generally happens. Breaking down supply -- and breaking it down in a way that doesn't seem to me to reflect the operative factors particularly well in the first place -- is not the way to go.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: jmlima




From my experience in developing games, I'm beginning to have an idea of what's happening here...

I've got an idea as well. One doesn't really need to have experience in game design to guess.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Panama

Aye, and me a third.

...and my axe!
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Sigh...

It is a valid objection, regardless of the source. Defending mechanized units would find themselves unable to retreat. The universal 'Fuhrer order.'

Thank you, Colin. Thus, the lobotomy would have been justified.
So...

The quick 'n dirty solution is to only allow units to go to a state of 'negative supply' in their half of the turn. It seems to me that it would be fairly easy to make the program could simply restore all units not meeting that qualification to 1% supply when the turn ends.

Not going to work. Units would be falling into the state long before the need to abandon the defense arrived, and even if they could move that one turn, they'd be stuck the very next one, and run down.

It's completely absurd that artillery units being out of ammo (not fuel) would have to be abandoned. And when forces retreat, it's almost always the foot-bound stuff that gets left behind, not the mechanized forces.

And let's not forget the other factor that I had mentioned earlier: Artillery that is still in range of the front would still support, even if in reorg.

Lastly, let's just remind ourselves of just how popular putting units in reorg (for any reason) is with players.

If you'll just look at what I proposed in Item 5.9, you'll see it's vastly superior. It doesn't even need a defense.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

The difficulty here is that units don't use fuel and ammo at the same rates.

Artillery that receives one tenth of its full supply of shells can do about a fifth of the damage it could otherwise; it can hold its fire until the target is really good, but at the end of the day, it needs tons of ammo to be of much use. Worse, in a lot of armies, fuel will be needed to bring that ammo up.

Infantry, on the other hand, can remain at least defensively quite potent with a minimum of ammunition; the requirements are almost absurdly modest compared to that required by tanks and artillery to remain useful. One 105 mm round weighs around 40 pounds -- that's the equivalent of a thousand or so rifle-caliber bullets. Bring up a ton of ammunition to your artillery battalion and it'll burn through it in four salvos. Bring up a ton of rifle ammunition to your infantry battalion and you've got forty rounds per man -- quite enough to stave off anything but a determined attacker. It's twelve pieces that can fire four times each versus eight hundred pieces that can fire forty times each.

This helps to explain why the Stalingrad pocket could hold out for so long, among other things. The tanks and artillery quickly became capable of only the most limited resistance -- but the infantry could still fight.

Similarly with fuel, of course. Given a reasonably well-settled region, foot infantry and cavalry can keep moving almost indefinitely; they'll start to get a little frayed, but they can push on. Tanks and trucks, of course, simply stop. That is unless either (a) they can bring up fuel (and again, a lot of it) or (b) the enemy has been good enough to leave some behind.

This helps to explain why the Russians continued to field cavalry. It gave them continued offensive mobility even in the absence of supply.

The distinction between fuel and ammunition strikes me as largely flawed. First, forces that have enough ammunition generally have enough fuel, and vice-versa. Secondly, for a lot of forces, fuel is needed to get the ammunition. Thirdly, those forces that need large physical quantities of ammunition to fight often need large quantities of fuel to fight as well, while conversely, those forces with modest ammunition requirements often have no fuel requirements at all.

Finally, of course, there are those forces (hores-drawn artillery) that need lots of ammunition to fight, but have no fuel requirements whatsoever -- either for fighting or for moving. They do need fodder -- but that may or may not be obtainable locally, depending on the circumstances. Also, a horse keeps running for a while without 'fuel.' Not so a truck.

So while in an ideal world distinguishing between all types of supply would be good, this strikes me as something that would definitely complicate the game but whose benefits would be questionable. In the end, we are managing as a one-man team in our spare time what is normally the sole occupation of thousands of trained personnel -- who often muff the job at that. We don't want a perfectly detailed simulation. What we want is one where the generalizations reflect what generally happens. Breaking down supply -- and breaking it down in a way that doesn't seem to me to reflect the operative factors particularly well in the first place -- is not the way to go.

What sophistry. If we had component supply we could address these things far more effectively. And I'm sure players would enjoy being able to move their units without rendering them out of ammo. Not to mention having them fight without rendering them out of fuel.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: jmlima

From my experience in developing games, I'm beginning to have an idea of what's happening here...

I've got an idea as well. One doesn't really need to have experience in game design to guess.

What's happening here is that you're being defeated by superior ideas. Try coming up with some better ones.
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