ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Can ANYONE tell me----maybe the Mod DESIGNER---WHY Japanese CAs have deck armor of 50 and WHY 500lb GP bombs carried by B-17s can penetrate 51!!!??? Mister Brian???
I believe this is intentional.
From the mod readme:
500 lb and 250kg bombs, devices 203 and 208 respectively - have both have been slightly enhanced. PBEM experience has amply demonstrated that both devices are a bit weak in effect on warships (actually my Japanese opponent first suggested that the 500lbr was just too weak after his CA Myoko was hit a verified 25 times
in one attack by carrier based SBD's using 500 lb'rs and suffered trifling damage
- not much more system damage than is usual from several weeks peaceful steaming).
The solution I used was to raise the pen value of the 500 lbr from 45 to 51,
and to balance this by raising the effect of the 250 kg from 370 to 400. Now both
devices are a bit more to be feared by the enemy - but still in proper
relationship to each other.
Were the SDBs that hit the Mikuma after Midway carrying 500 or 1000lb bombs? If I recall, that ship was pretty messed up (well, it did suffer a hit that detonated its torpedoes) by more than a few hits.
Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...
I told John that we have to give up on Bombay for the time being. Until we have size-4 airbases at Pangim, Poona, and Ahmadebad, which are currently all size 1, we have to concede control of the air and ocean around Bombay.
I need to withdraw the CVs from Mangalore, that's within B-17 range and we really can't afford a couple bomb hits on a CV.
On the ground things are still going well, and we are pushing Westward for Karachi; hope to rush the place and capture troops in the meantime
In Burma, things are also looking up, and rapidly coming to a close. The Chinese appear to be moving to attack the stack east of Lashio to try to open supplies to China; we have 2 divisions there at the moment. If they hold, we should be able to bag all the British units shortly, as well as 10 Chinese units.
It looks like the net in Burma/India will net us a total of 25 units. Of these 11 are Chinese and rest British. This will be a pretty respectable haul.
Brad has a small Brigade divided into two elements sweeping the Northern Burma/India area. Jorhat and Dimapur are gone with Ledo and Kohima coming up fast.
Future Surrenders:
1. Once these are gone there will be nothing left for the troops, who will be trapped at Myitkyina, to retreat to and surrender will follow. This will bring in 10 Brit/Burma units.
2. There are 10 Chinese units at 36,30 and in the hex north of that. They will be captured.
3. The Chittagong BF and BF that was at Akyab are also trapped too.
4. The Pangrim and Mandalore BF will be dealt with as well.
Once I saw the note regarding the 250Kg bombs I now remember reading it. VERY frustrating! For a while we will have to rely upon just SS doing the interdiction job. I HATE fearing 4EB when it wasn't so IRL!!! (Starting my 4EB Mantra...)
In other topics:
A. I've been moving Kwantung units down to our "K-Mart" as Brad describes it of Moppo. Just bought out a pair of Con Bat and a Heavy Artillery Regiment and sent it to India to help Brad. I bought a Base Force and Con Bat for New Zealand.
B. Supply and fuel is getting better at the Pacific bases. I've got decent amounts of fuel for operations but need about 60,000 Supply shipped to Kwajalein and Pago Pago for extended operations.
C. The 3 Chinese Inf Brigades are now well on their way to Kwajalein. They are set for Canton. I am not married, as of yet, to a Canton Invasion but would like to provoke a fight.
D. I've moved about 50% of the New Zealand Air Force to Pago Pago and Kwajalein for Reaction Forces.
---At Kwajalein: 54 Zero and 81 Betty
---At Pago Pago: 36 Zero and 54 Betty
Once Christ Church Falls then I will move another 54 Zero and 54 Betty out and we should be pretty good at that point.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
I am of the opinion that the allies are husbanding the CV’s for a counter strike. Have you encountered the 2nd Marine Div yet? At this point, based on what you have taken, and more importantly what you can supply and hold, I would let you get strung out. No use trying to hold distant bases at this point.. If it was me I would hold HI and whats left of OZ, all the while hitting the supply lines with SS, and wait for 6-7 Months before it would attack.. which based on the current dispositions would be Tarawa /Makin. Severing the lines of supply.. I’d wait – not that there appears to be an option at this point – until I can take you in a battle of attrition and win…
There hasn't been a huge amount of combat lately, just some troops movements mostly, but here is an update:
Burma
We are closing in on Myiktinya, the last Allied city in the area south of the Chinese border. We should be able to bag the British there, and force a surrender, provided they don't run into the jungle. There are still Chinese troops on the trail between Myiktinya and Lashio, and they are stuck against our blocking force north of Lashio. The plan is to close things out soon in Burma, and start prepping troops for an invasion of Ceylon
India
John described a naval action off Bombay; we used a CA force to sink some transports, but B-17s on Naval attack cause enough damage to the cruisers that we won't try that again. We are building airbases at Poona, Mangalore, and Ahmadebad, but until those are up and running we are keeping a respectful distance from Bombay with ships or air. We are invested on the ground in Bombay with about 1000 AV to keep the Allies pinned there.
Elsewhere, Ahmadebad has fallen, and we are racing to cut the Allies fleeing through Jaipur. Of course, my units were attempting to march overland rather than use the Railroad, so we fell behind, and may not make it before the Allies flee. Delhi is now empty, and they are running for Malir/Karachi as fast as they can.
The last towns in NE India have fallen. Pretty soon it's going to be down to Bombay, Karachi, and Ceylon, and I think we can take the last 2.
New Zealand
John has been bombing Christchurch pretty regularly, while unloading troops at Picton for a march south. Christchurch should be invested in a few days, so more of an update then. Hope to have NZ wrapped up by the end of May.
China
There has been no ground action in China, as we have concentrated on Chinese industry. The Resources at Changsha and Wuhan are down by 1/2, and still working on them.
Pilots
We have started a pilot training program for Zero pilots in China, and the first unit "graduated" to 77 exp, and is now being upgraded from Claudes to Zeros. We have another at 71 exp, and 2 more further back in the pipeline. This pattern should allow us to effectively train about 30 Zero pilots per month.
HORNBLOWER: To answer your question, we have not seen 2nd Marine. We haven't seen any sign of the USN CVs since the opening month, in fact since 12/41, we haven't seen a USN warship larger than a DD. That's a long haul without naval activity. I am paranoid about the USN showing at any time on our perimeter, a few pages back John detailed our defensive preparations, which are not quite where I would want them to be, but we have to keep troops in India.
We are certainly going to close out New Zealand, beyond that John may invade Canton Is, or may not. It would be nice to have, because 4Es can stage from Canton to Cairns; without Canton, they can't get any 4Es to Australia. That would be nice.
1. While reading the last few posts of this AAR, I was struck by how ludicrous it was that the Japanese were simultaneously investing India, New Zealand and the CentPac when in RL they could not have accomplished tow of them at they same time. Then it struck me: this AAR is likely the last hurrah for WITP stock and the amazing offensive capabilities of the Japanese side. AE will fix thisand the corresponding Allied steamroller counter offensive in 44 and 45. So instead I am grabbing my beer and pretzels and enjoying watching John3 and Q-Ball demonstrate how well the game can be played as the Japanese. Roll on my dear friends, roll on.
2. That said, the whole concept of taking India with the troops present is a interesting study. India had c. 400 million in population in 1942. The Japanese could only have sustained a presence in India by granting them some level of autonomy. The problem is that the Japanese (especially the Army) had a problem with a deep seated racial superiority complex. So if the Japanese Army treated the Indian populace the way the treated most indigenous people in territories they conquered, what would happen? I doubt the Indians would have bided switching from one Colonial occupyer to another that treated them much worse very well.
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
1. While reading the last few posts of this AAR, I was struck by how ludicrous it was that the Japanese were simultaneously investing India, New Zealand and the CentPac when in RL they could not have accomplished tow of them at they same time. Then it struck me: this AAR is likely the last hurrah for WITP stock and the amazing offensive capabilities of the Japanese side.
2. That said, the whole concept of taking India with the troops present is a interesting study. India had c. 400 million in population in 1942.
No doubt this is unrealistic, and no doubt AE is going to change all of that. I expect this to be my last ever invasion of India with this engine!
And India is an interesting historical what-if. Subhas Chandra Bose had quite a few enthusiastic adherents, and the British had their own issues in India. It seems in many places, the Japanese were greeted with an initial enthusiasm, for that only to fade under the yoke of Japanese administration. Burma is a good example. Does't matter much, because IRL, an invasion of India would have been impossible.
Hopefully in AE, an active British is equally tough in this theater. It is possible for the Allies to really make hay out there in WITP, as you know vettim89 from your game. In reality, the British were completely lacking in any kind of invasion shipping, and therefore limited to slogging overland in Burma.
That doesn't make AE sound very exciting to me. I think there may be two kinds of WitP fans out there:
1) Those to whom "real life" is everything - they want the game to model the situation, assets, and abilities in the Pacific as closely as possible. (To them, therefore, a game that played out excactly like WWII would be "perfect," although I don't think they necessarily realize this).
2) Those to whom the ability to depart from "real life" is the real lure of the game. These folks may best want the at-start forces and deployment to model December 7, 1941, but then enjoy the ability to deviate from real life and to play a "very complicated game of chess," with unhistorical moves like the Japs invading India, Australia, or Hawaii, or the Allies doing similar far-fetched things, possibilities.
I prefer the latter model; I just wish there was some way for the game to impose the FOW on both sides at the start of the war, so that (for instance) the Jap player wouldn't have a general idea as to where the Allies are and how far the Japs can push, and conversely so for the Allies.
If the Brits only have the option of slogging their way through Burma due to a lack of transport ships, then that reduced an entire theater to a rather boring region (in my opinion). If the Japs really can't invade India, or Australia, or Hawaii, then, pffft, some of the excitement and novelty is gone.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
What is your current naval point pool and its daily change?
Accelerating Taiho would cost 345 points per day which would be a big chunk of your budget. I am not sure if it is worth it. Accelerating Kasagi, Aso and Ikoma would weigh in at 219 points/day until they reach 730 days so that would be my preferred option if you have the points. Of course you could exchange one of them for Katsuragi as well.
Once Yamato hits the water, we will have a daily excess of 282 in Naval Points. Enough, in other words, to accelerate Taiho without impacting other production.
If we accelerate anything else, I would probably go for the Akizuki DDs, though I think they are less critical than a CV might be in April 1943. I am inclined to go for Taiho.
We will also need more points on 1/1/43 for the accelerated builds of the 2 Chitoses. But I like getting 3 CVs and 2 CVLs as reinforcements in early 1943.
That doesn't make AE sound very exciting to me. I think there may be two kinds of WitP fans out there:
1) Those to whom "real life" is everything - they want the game to model the situation, assets, and abilities in the Pacific as closely as possible. (To them, therefore, a game that played out excactly like WWII would be "perfect," although I don't think they necessarily realize this).
2) Those to whom the ability to depart from "real life" is the real lure of the game. These folks may best want the at-start forces and deployment to model December 7, 1941, but then enjoy the ability to deviate from real life and to play a "very complicated game of chess," with unhistorical moves like the Japs invading India, Australia, or Hawaii, or the Allies doing similar far-fetched things, possibilities.
I prefer the latter model; I just wish there was some way for the game to impose the FOW on both sides at the start of the war, so that (for instance) the Jap player wouldn't have a general idea as to where the Allies are and how far the Japs can push, and conversely so for the Allies.
If the Brits only have the option of slogging their way through Burma due to a lack of transport ships, then that reduced an entire theater to a rather boring region (in my opinion). If the Japs really can't invade India, or Australia, or Hawaii, then, pffft, some of the excitement and novelty is gone.
I think AE will offer different challenges than Stock but I doubt it will be boring. The Japanese and Allies will still both be able to pursue their own course for the war. I have to disagree with you Dan. This game is a perfect example that there are some major flaws in the WITP engine and capabilities of both sides. We play with what we have and any player who fails to learn the system as is to use it to his advantage is a fool. That said, the Japanese had no where near the capabilites to undertake one major invasion like Australia or India or the PH let alone multiiple ones simultaneously. Likewise the Allies could barely invade Tarawa in late 1943 let alone Japan proper.
While WITP is a great game as is, skilled players have shown again and again that the holes in the system can be used to produce unbeleivable successes for both sides. This game has as much to do with the RL war as a game about Mars invades Venus. That is not a criticism of John3/Q-Ball at all. What they have accomplished shows what highly skilled players can accomplish within the current system. AE will not ruin WITP but merely tame the beast a little.
The good news is that the AE developers have indicated that Stock will continues to be patched. So those of you who like wild flowing games based on ahistorical capabilites for both sides will still have WITP. For me, give me AE. Japan invading India is way cool but if it happened in RL, it would have been hops along the coast to Akyab, Chittangong, etc not half the OOB of the IJA arriving by sea deep into India.
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
I will vow right here and now that in my first game within AE I will try to take New Zealand or Australia, or India. Have to press the limits to see what is sustainable and doable in the new game. Great discussion as to capabilities and weaknesses in WitP.
Haven't mentioned this to Dan but I think it might be fun to do a joint "now that the war is over" Thread about things we learned, opportunities lost, lessons learned, etc... Really think that might be a very fun thing to do and get eveyone who has so supported our AARs on board and in the discussion!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Haven't mentioned this to Dan but I think it might be fun to do a joint "now that the war is over" Thread about things we learned, opportunities lost, lessons learned, etc... Really think that might be a very fun thing to do and get eveyone who has so supported our AARs on board and in the discussion!
That would be awesome! I almost wonder if you guys should start it now, and start reading each other's AAR, at least up until the end of 1943, which shouldn't be classified. I think both of you can be trusted not to read the last few pages.
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Once Yamato hits the water, we will have a daily excess of 282 in Naval Points. Enough, in other words, to accelerate Taiho without impacting other production.
If we accelerate anything else, I would probably go for the Akizuki DDs, though I think they are less critical than a CV might be in April 1943. I am inclined to go for Taiho.
In that case I would still argue it is better to accelerate Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma and Katsuragi now while it is cheap (289 points). Then once they hit the 10x durability mark you could still switch to something else.
Haven't mentioned this to Dan but I think it might be fun to do a joint "now that the war is over" Thread about things we learned, opportunities lost, lessons learned, etc... Really think that might be a very fun thing to do and get eveyone who has so supported our AARs on board and in the discussion!
That would be awesome! I almost wonder if you guys should start it now, and start reading each other's AAR, at least up until the end of 1943, which shouldn't be classified. I think both of you can be trusted not to read the last few pages.
It's an interesting read side by side.
I've already given John permission to read my AAR through September 1944 (excluding October through the present-date in early December to protect ongoing operations). I have not asked John for similar permission, and I'm not trying to subtly obtain such permission by giving it to him.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Once Yamato hits the water, we will have a daily excess of 282 in Naval Points. Enough, in other words, to accelerate Taiho without impacting other production.
If we accelerate anything else, I would probably go for the Akizuki DDs, though I think they are less critical than a CV might be in April 1943. I am inclined to go for Taiho.
In that case I would still argue it is better to accelerate Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma and Katsuragi now while it is cheap (289 points). Then once they hit the 10x durability mark you could still switch to something else.
I think this is what Brad chose to do. It makes a bunch of sense to me if we can move these CVs forward 100-200 Days cheaply while we move forward normally with the others for a while. Bringing in Taiho, Unryu, and Katsuragi TOGETHER holds a lot of value to me.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
