Patch 06 - Public Beta - Build 1108r9 updated 21 January 2012 (2nd part)

[michaelm75au]

My reading of the the a/c factories is that if you just create one device in one factory for R&D, and you finally get to produce the a/c, it will only be building '1' per month.

To maximise the R&D and to give a reasonable production schedule to begin with, I would try for at least 30 devices per factory. And convert multiple factories if really want the a/c.
With 30 devices in a factory, you will (hopefully) get the max R&D (3) per factory most of the time. Which would transalate to an advancement of a month every 34 days.
And then once R&D is finished, it should start producing one plane a day without any further adjustment.

[FeurerKrieg]

I see it quite differently, largely because I switch R&D factories to the next factory in the upgrade stream before it goes to production. And it takes SO long for R&D to repair, that having 1 point of R&D coming per day a year or two earlier would clearly provide many more months of advancement.

The only caveat I can see, is that since R&D repairs quickly when the plane type is very near to production date, you could bump up the R&D factory size a month or two before that model is ready, cross your fingers and hope it gets fully repaired, and then switch it to the next model in the upgrade path. Viola you have 20+ factories giving you the chance of 2 (or 3 if this +1 bonus is in effect always?) R&D points per day for the rest of the game. That means a month of upgrade every two months with just ONE factory.

[michaelm75au]

[edit]
Removed incomplete formula.

[Numdydar]

I'm sorry, but somewhere along the line you lost me.

If there are damaged R&D factories say 5(2) you will always get a point.
If there are NO damaged R&D factories 7(0) you will always get 2 points, 1 point because it is <20, + 1 point because it is fully repaired
If the factory is 0(7) you get zero points as nothing is repaired

So the sweet point for R&D factories would be a fully repaired 20 point factory. Because you would get 2 points for size, +1 for fully repaired for a maximum of 3 points

Is any of the above close to being correct?

[michaelm75au]

[edit]
removed incomplete formula

[Chris21wen]

There's a problem setting LCU odjectives when lcu type filters are used.

For instance, selecting just Art in a list then picking one to change its objective followed by 'set all' to this objective does not just change the art but all units in the full list.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The maximum gain is 3 R&D per factory. The more devices in the factory, the higher chance of getting a '3'. If you had a factory with only 1 device, you would only get 1 R&D.
It is actually a random number (1 to number of devices) and then 1-19 = 1, 20-29 = 2, 30-39 = 3, etc, with it capped at 3.

However, I have gone back to the manual and it clearly states
"Aircraft or Engines with a production capacity that are not yet available will be researched. This may move up the availability of the new aircraft or engine. Whenever a plane/engine would have been produced, the new aircraft or engine will gain 1 development point. For every 100 development points the availability of the aircraft or engine may be moved up one month."

My reading of this would be that it was written based on the way a/c factories work for building a/c; ie R&D could be used with damaged factories. But R&D can't be used until all devices are repaired for a factory.

What is interesting is that this (the code and manual) was not changed from the original stock, so it must have been changed back then.

Hmm, interesting.
However that is not how factories production works. It is something around the line factory_size+rnd(30)/30 for daily production, so research is little different.

But that explains, why at 30 people gets best results. There is not possible wastage at 30, because maximum generated number is 3, however larger factories HAVE some benefits, as they can generate 3 points more frequently (but waste all points over 20).

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

In simple terms
(a) A factory will produce a random R&D between 0 and the number of devices in the factory ie 1 device = 0, 2 devices = 0,1, 3 devices =0,1,2, 4 devices = 0,1,2,3, 10 devices = 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 etc.
(b) The random R&D is then divided by 10. Any random R&D of less than 10 will be '0', otherwise it will be the ten's component of the random R&D.
(c) If there are no damaged devices in factory (this is a given as there must be NO damaged ones present), add '1' to the number from (b).
(d) If the number from (c) exceeds 3, it is capped at '3'.

The number from (d) is added to the a/c development counter - this will be a number from 1 to 3 inclusive.
Once the counter exceeds 100, it moves the available date sooner by a month and resets the development counter.

Thanks. This makes more sense now. So yes, it would seem that 30 is the sweet spot, which means that most of my plans don't need to change after all.

[FeurerKrieg]

On second thought, I'm still not sure if 30 is better than 1 for R&D factories when considering the repair time involved. With a size 1, you will always get 0 for the random R&D plus the +1 bonus. With a size 30 you will get 1, 2 or 3 depending on the die roll, probably mostly 2 & 3. But if it takes 2 years to repair up to 30 then in that time the single point factory could have given you several months of advancement already.

Anyone else see it this way?

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

There's a problem setting LCU odjectives when lcu type filters are used.

For instance, selecting just Art in a list then picking one to change its objective followed by 'set all' to this objective does not just change the art but all units in the full list.

The 'Set all' from the LCU screen affects all units in the hex, not in the list. Designed that way from start.
Not sure if it could be done the other way.

[bk19@mweb.co.za]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I'm sorry, but somewhere along the line you lost me.

1. If there are damaged R&D factories say 5(2) you will always get a point.
2.If there are NO damaged R&D factories 7(0) you will always get 2 points, 1 point because it is <20, + 1 point because it is fully repaired
3. If the factory is 0(7) you get zero points as nothing is repaired

4. So the sweet point for R&D factories would be a fully repaired 20 point factory. Because you would get 2 points for size, +1 for fully repaired for a maximum of 3 points

Is any of the above close to being correct?

1. Damaged factory = NO R&D.
2. 7(0) will produce 1 R&D - 0 because <10, +1 due to fully repaired.
3. Yes.
4. Not quite. 20(0) will give 0 or 1 for factory size, +1 for fully repaired. Total points will be 1 or 2 depending on how favorable the die is to you. 30 is a better sweet point in my opinion.

[edit]
Don't forget that there is a bug in the betas from p8 to q3 that allowed damaged factories to produce R&D.

Hi Michael,

I just wish to clarify a minor ambiguity.

With respect to the remark: 1. Damaged factory = NO R&D.

Are you actually saying that if there are any damaged R&D factories such as the example cited - 5(2), no R&D points will be received?

[michaelm75au]

Correct.
R&D was originally designed (in WITP and AE) to apply once all damage was repaired.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

30 is a better sweet point in my opinion.

Good. That is consistent with my testing ... so my test results were accurate (at least to some degree). [;)]

[Numdydar]

And my testing was obviously not lol.

[michaelm75au]

It appears that the bug I introduced in p8 has also caused me to report the wrong information here.

The fix in the coming q4 should correct this by putting it back to correct method based on production first, and then the other reported calculations.
One tiny '{}' in the wrong place has caused all this confusion.
Go figure

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

...
One tiny '{}' in the wrong place has caused all this confusion.
Go figure

Yeah, and the code is so tight, with small, concise functions and clear, well designed subroutines....

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

My reading of the the a/c factories is that if you just create one device in one factory for R&D, and you finally get to produce the a/c, it will only be building '1' per month.

To maximise the R&D and to give a reasonable production schedule to begin with, I would try for at least 30 devices per factory. And convert multiple factories if really want the a/c.
With 30 devices in a factory, you will (hopefully) get the max R&D (3) per factory most of the time. Which would transalate to an advancement of a month every 34 days.
And then once R&D is finished, it should start producing one plane a day without any further adjustment.

But Michael, the more I look at this it looks like the sweet spot is 1(0) or X(0) if you start from existing sites.

If I have a 30(0) site I will " (hopefully) get the max R&D (3) per factory most of the time" or an advance of a month every 34 days. But if I have four 1(0) factories I will get an advance of a month every 25 days (4X1X25=100) every time. This tells me that if I want to accellerate an a/c I want to convert the LOWEST R&D factory sites and don't add anything to them in order to minimize the repair time.

[michaelm75au]

Due to the bug I introduced in beta p8, my earlier premise is incorrect.

The best factory would be 30(0) to get at least 1 R&D a day. The initial R&D value per factory should be just as with normal a/c production.

The next beta q4 will fix this up and put it back to how it was/should be.

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Due to the bug I introduced in beta p8, my earlier premise is incorrect.

The best factory would be 30(0) to get at least 1 R&D a day. The initial R&D value per factory should be just as with normal a/c production.

The next beta q4 will fix this up and put it back to how it was/should be.

Okay - just saw this. So are you saying there is no +1 bonus for an undamaged factory after all? In other words, a size 1 factory only has a 1 in 30 chance of generating a point? If so, then clearly 30 is (as has been suspected all along) the ideal factory size to have.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm getting ready to start a game and I want to set my R&D factories correctly from the get go.

Thanks for your time spent enlightening us.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Due to the bug I introduced in beta p8, my earlier premise is incorrect.

The best factory would be 30(0) to get at least 1 R&D a day. The initial R&D value per factory should be just as with normal a/c production.

The next beta q4 will fix this up and put it back to how it was/should be.

THANKS for finding and fixing this for us AND providing clear statements as to how it will work.

Great support!!!

[&o][&o][&o]