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pauk
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Sorry I dont understand what you are saying Pauk.

Are you saying that in your opinion its an exploit despite Mogami saying it is what was intended and that we test the premise in a poll ?

you understood it well.

No one, including Mogami or devs would convince me that this isn't shameless exploit....

If really devs intendend to do like it working in the games, why we don't have that in the manual?

Why do we have PPs? I just don't understand why is so hard to admit that - we have similar situation when it was discussion about Kwantung Army units which can be used without PP in the China. I was one of the first who agreed (i'm exclusevly, sp? Jap player) that this is exploit, no matter the engine support that)...

so, 99% of the games have house rule no Kwa units in china unless PPs are paid (and i support that 100 %)!!!

and now, we have opposite situation where, all kinds of justifications and arguments are thrown just to justify this exploit!!

ok, i may be stupid but i don't see consistent attitude here at all....

so, i would accept any future game on this base...

you may use northern pacific HQ exploit, and i can use Kwa units in china (or malaya/burma via railroad) or china exp army in malaya/burma (via railroad) too....

so... any takers?

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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by Nemo121 »

Sneer,
 
Well, after it was explained I modified my new house rules to remove mention of the need to physically MOVE troops from CONUSA to India via ship. So, once it was explained I dropped my objection to that... So I modified my position based on the explanation given once that explanation was actually given. I'm sure that others have done the same.
 
The issue with teleporting into a besieged port is a separate issue IMO which is still unreasonable no matter how reasonable the paying of PPs for HQs and getting the rest of the units for free. My work-around for that would be the Karachi is Aden ( and inviolable) if Karachi is cut off from the rest of India concept.
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by Andy Mac »

Sorry Nemo this wasnt really an issue for your AAR I was just curious (as I said I wont be doing it anyway so its not an issue) but it could be interesting.
 
Pauk you are correct if that interpretation for NORPAC or CENTPAC or SOPAC IS correct then changing Kwan HQ or Jap China command would remove the need for house rules for those as well.
 
As you say what is good for one side is good for both probably impractical in reality its an intersting debate ;)
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by timtom »

ORIGINAL: pauk

No one, including Mogami or devs would convince me that this isn't shameless exploit....

Why do we have PPs? I just don't understand why is so hard to admit that - we have similar situation when it was discussion about Kwantung Army units which can be used without PP in the China. I was one of the first who agreed (i'm exclusevly, sp? Jap player) that this is exploit, no matter the engine support that)...

so, 99% of the games have house rule no Kwa units in china unless PPs are paid (and i support that 100 %)!!!

and now, we have opposite situation where, all kinds of justifications and arguments are thrown just to justify this exploit!!

so... any takers?

Reinforcements and their arrival dates and locations are dictated by history (the Grigsby interpretation, that is), to say specific historical circumstances that might or might not arise in any given game.

Thus, fx, the reinforcements assigned NoPac reflects the historic response to Japan's move on the Aleutians. Should the Allied player be forced to keep these in Alaska if, say, India is being overrun but nothing is happening in Alaska?

In my understanding, the primary purpose of PP's are to govern the release of forces from the restricted commands. Their extension to other commands is more of a half-hatched attempt to implement some kind of command structure and as we known, its impact is only marginally more than cosmetic. It is not, I would think, an attempt to railroad the player onto a narrow historical path regardless of actual game-situations.

Hence I'm disinclined to think that transferring an unrestricted command is an exploit - shifting the West Coast HQ obviously would be. We can discuss whether the capability was there to move the forces West round the Cape was there within the time framework given by the game, but not whether the capability itself was there.

Shame about the game, Nemo - I was rather enjoying the drama! the controversy! Hopefully you'll stirr up some trouble in your new game :).

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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by EUBanana »

For gods sake, whingewhingewhinge. "There is no counter". Whats the counter to KB death stars in 1942? Or Zero maneuverability bonuses? How fair is the Jap amphibious assault bonus, which is only there as an artificial pump up so "they can do as well as they did historically" (given how often they grossly exceed how well they did historically thats pretty questionable right there). But thats the game.

Air mining banned because you cant intercept it?
Not allowing planes to move through the USSR? I don't even think those are unreasonable in any game myself.

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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: timtom

Reinforcements and their arrival dates and locations are dictated by history (the Grigsby interpretation, that is), to say specific historical circumstances that might or might not arise in any given game.

Thus, fx, the reinforcements assigned NoPac reflects the historic response to Japan's move on the Aleutians. Should the Allied player be forced to keep these in Alaska if, say, India is being overrun but nothing is happening in Alaska?

In my understanding, the primary purpose of PP's are to govern the release of forces from the restricted commands. Their extension to other commands is more of a half-hatched attempt to implement some kind of command structure and as we known, its impact is only marginally more than cosmetic. It is not, I would think, an attempt to railroad the player onto a narrow historical path regardless of actual game-situations.

Hence I'm disinclined to think that transferring an unrestricted command is an exploit - shifting the West Coast HQ obviously would be. We can discuss whether the capability was there to move the forces West round the Cape was there within the time framework given by the game, but not whether the capability itself was there.

Shame about the game, Nemo - I was rather enjoying the drama! the controversy! Hopefully you'll stirr up some trouble in your new game :).


As i wrote earlier, we can always found justifications...

sorry, we can argue all thay long, but i don't buy historical argumentations at the moment - we are talking about game mechanics....and just because it is allowed it doesn't means it is right...


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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by Nemo121 »

EUBanana,

Good operational and tactical employment provides the counter to the Zero Bonus, the "KB Deathstar" etc. They ARE counterable. The cost might be very high but they can be defeated by operational and tactical skill and/or rendered largely irrelevant by strategic skill. As to how fair the Japanese invasion bonus is... Hmm, well, I don't know. Amn't an expert on Japanese amhibious capabilities.

Air-mining... Yup, banned. It is uncounterable using operational or tactical nous and, as such, is banned over bases which, presumably, have fighter cover. If there's no fighter cover there ( represented by there being no airfield symbol) then air mining is allowed.

Basing of American bombers in the Soviet Union before the Soviet Union is activated... Yes, I had a problem with that being reasonable and counterable. E.g. I can't bomb them without activating the Soviet Union so my ability to counter their basing there is extremely limited. So, yes, I feel it isn't reasonable. However, in the interests of the game continuing I did give way on this issue and agree to allow it so long as they didn't fly from the Soviet Union to attack Japan until the Soviet Union was, itself, attacked. That seems a fair compromise. P.s. Since I consider this a gamey exploit while I'm willing to let it happen in this game in the interests of the game continuing I will not, obviously, be doing it myself in the game I'm playing as the Allies.

So, my positions on these issues are quite consistent. You might disagree and that's your right in precisely the same way as two people can disagree over picket ships ( my view would be that there's nothing wrong with them so long as the picket ships are of a military nature ( auxiliaries or warships) as opposed to throwaway APs or AKs. Hopefully you can be open-minded enough to countenance the fact that I can reasonably arrive at a different opinion than you without castigating me for it.


Timtom,
No, no interest in controversy although my disinclination to accept conventional wisdom does tend to rattle "the sheep" somewhat and contrary to public opinion even sheep bite ;).



Everybody,
No offence but could we take the "paying PPs for HQ shifting and getting the units for free" discussion elsewhere? My opinion on it ( for this game and the other one) is that shifting these troops into Aden ( or a Karachi standing in for Aden) via using PP to buy out their HQ is a questionable tactic at best but teleporting them into Karachi is completely beyond the pale. So, as Allies I won't be teleporting any troops into Karachi or Aden via buying out their HQ. If I want to move them then I'll move then division by division, by sea to Karachi paying the PP points for each division.

Since I don't want to cripple the Allies in this current game though so long as it is understood that Karachi stands for Aden and is, therefore, inviolable I am happy for the Allied player to gain advantage by shifting these forces. I side with Pauk on this but in the interests of this game I would be happy for the Allied player to exploit this game mechanic since, while questionable, it is probably no more questionable than the first movement bonus which I find entirely reasonable. I will not, however, be taking advantage of this in my game as the Allies for the same reason as above.


In other news...
My new opponent has gotten a look at the current game and has agreed to continue it from April 1st. Karachi is cut off and will be representing Aden. As such it will be inviolable. In addition since this predates the carrier battle around French Frigate Shoals the Americans get two of their carriers back.

My opponent HAS spent some time reading this thread prior to deciding whether or not to take up this game so I have to assume he knows my overall strategy and, more specifically, my plans for what to do after India falls. As such it will be necessary to change those plans significantly... although, of course, significant advantage will accrue from following them to some extent and giving the appearance of all things proceeding as before.

Since my opponent is new and, therefore, hasn't been put on the psychological back foot it will be necessary to attempt to do so. The means to do so is, obviously, according to Soviet Doctrine to mount multiple offensive operations which rapidly weaken the enemy's operational, strategic and psychological position ( with the last of these three being by far the most important). This, therefore, will be what I do.
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by timtom »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

contrary to public opinion even sheep bite ;).

And how did you work that one out? [:'(]
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by mogami »

Hi, If players had the ability to rename HQ no one would question the current system. The problem is "Northern Pacific" HQ moves to India and everyone howls.  The follow on units go without paying PP for a reason. (They belong to the HQ where ever it deploys) The reinforcement schedule is a historical record it has nothing to do with actual current situation on map.  Just as the Japanese can block/delay arrivals by controlling a base simply because this is location historically used to get units onto game map. (does anyone think these units are being created in these hexes? They are arriving from off map locations and if this hex was unavailable historically these units would simply have relocated)
 
Very early in this AAR when Nemo was asking where he should go I clearly stated he should refrain from going to Karachi.  The ALLIED PLAYER is who decides where to deploy his units. (Not the Japanese) It is a major strategic decision to transfer a Pacific HQ to another theatre but it is not dictated by PP after he pays the cost to transfer the HQ.  Units do not arrive by base location but according to proximity to their assigned HQ. In order to deploy future units assigned to a redeployed HQ the Allied player needs to pay PP and transport the units. It's simply the reverse of the process before he redeploys the HQ (northern Pacific units could still go to India even if Northern Pacific HQ were located in Dutch Harbor but they would need to pay PP to gain benifit of local HQ and would require transport.
 
When a main portion of Japanese plan entails blocking movement by using map edges, prevent entry of reinforcement by capturing arrival hexes the Allied player has to redefine his strategy. I see their are players who think he should be confined to the Pacific but the Allied player must be as free as the Japanese player in deploying his forces.  THERE IS NO COST IN PP FOR UNITS TO ARRIVE AT ASSIGNED HQ. The oversight was not permitting Allied player to change HQ assignments to units still in reinforcement que. (Free of PP charge) It always costs PP to change HQ of on map bases or on map units.  Even units not assigned to retricted HQ must pay PP to gain benifit of local HQ.  (many air fragment and other issues result from players not paying PP to change units and bases to proper HQ) (air unit assigned to South Pacific HQ located in Noumea while unit is deployed to Ceylon with replacements on is going to result in air fragments in South Pacific that can not reach parent unit)
 
If WITP used a map of entire globe this AAR would be much different.  If players assigned units in reinforcement que HQ and arrival locations this AAR would be much different.
 
I realize nothing can change players from attempting to defeat Allies because the game allows certain "tricks" to be used. If that floats your boat then have fun.  But this type "Grand Strategy" is as flawed as many people claim the game mechanics to be.
 
Cut off units are not too hard to kill. (early in war non Japanese/Chinese units are too easy to kill) It is intended that ground combat not be resolved in a single day unless the attacker has overwhelming power but even then it is intended that time be required to totally clear a hex.  (forces that will not surrender fight to the last man)
 
Any way. I'm working on a new turn 1 scenario 15 stock.  I intend on showing that without using any tricks at all WITP allows the Japanese player to meet the historic Japanese Plan for Conduct of the war and secure all objectives on time. (just like they actually did)
 
The object when playing Japan is not to out do Japan's successfull phase but to improve where they FAILED!!! Japanese players do not prove squat in the expansion phase using exploits and accepting risks far beyond what would ever be approved by a higher HQ that would be held accounted for failure. (human players simply quit the game following disasters)
 
The conquest of India on a world map solves none of the main Japanese problems of defense.  The main enemy of Japan is the US Navy.  The main concern of Japan is preventing the drive towards the Japanese Home Islands.
I 'd rather see Japanese players trying to capture Pearl Harbor then Karachi because at least in the Central Pacific there are no exploits.
 
Issues that unbalance the game are simple.
1. Japan must not ever be allowed to move units between restricted HQ without paying PP. Such movement is not intended and has been stated as such since before games release.
2. Japan must not be permitted to use turn 1 movement for anything other then PH strike and movement between Japanese bases. (just use the 4 hex rule and be happy)
3. Japanese pilots should be trained using the "training" mission.  (The exploits are well known. while quite clever they should be avoided by any player who wants WITP work as intended. )
4. To be most accurate RD factories should be set to size 0. Players can then alter them as desired. Otherwise be happy for the free production on set dates and leave them alone.
 
Of course the above are guides for players trying to recreate the circumstances and realities of 1941-1946 using the intended design of WITP. If your only interested in winning a game then why question results obtained from exploits? (why accept one exploit and question another?)  Conquer the map fans should use the expanded maps. The stock map were not designed for that.
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by EUBanana »

You can counter mines with minesweepers...  
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by Nemo121 »

Timtom,

The defence would like to introduce into evidence the thread. [;)]
 
 
Mogami,
(why accept one exploit and question another?) 
 
Simple, because people differ and the reason so many people went and died fighting against the evil of fascism was precisely so that their societies would continue to be able to countenance difference and accept it.
 
 
And onto your points.
If WiTP used a map of the entire globe then it would be "Global War" and this and EVERY AAR would be different. Put in different parameters and the outcome would be different. This is obviously so. Seriously though, accept it, people differ and draw the lines in different places.
 
"  If players assigned units in reinforcement que HQ and arrival locations this AAR would be much different."
Yes, as would all other AARs. Change the parameters and ALL games would be different.
 
The object when playing Japan is not to out do Japan's successfull phase but to improve where they FAILED!!!
 
No, that is inaccurate. THAT may be your object. However people differ ( and let's be thankful for that for a world in which everyone thought the same would be a world in which I'd definitely commit suicide... or more likely be euthanised for being unwilling to conform) and so some players have different objects when playing the game. My objective in all strategy games I play is to try to run as many continuous and contiguous operations as possible as quickly as possible with as little margin of error as possible. This is what gives me enjoyment of the game. In WiTP this translated in one way. In Combat Mission, in another, in WiR in another etc...
 
So, your "truth" is but one of the possible truths out there. I find it disappointing that you continually talk as though it is "the only truth". That sort of attitude causes the sorts of wars we enjoy replaying virtually. People have different views of what makes something enjoyable than you do. This doesn't make you wrong or them wrong. It just means you differ. Vive la difference!!!
 
 
The conquest of India on a world map solves none of the main Japanese problems of defense.  The main enemy of Japan is the US Navy.  The main concern of Japan is preventing the drive towards the Japanese Home Islands.
 
I disagree with this. Removing the Indian theatre as a base from which aerial and amphibious offensives can be launched into the DEI IS the solution to one of Japan's main problems. In order to defeat the drive against the Home Islands ( the main objective of any viable strategy) it is necessary to ensure that maximum resources can be allocated to the Pacific Theatre at the appropriate time. In order to ensure that maximum resources can be allocated it is necessary to:
a) minimise the drawdown of these resources in other theatres ( served by eliminating India as a theatre since it is a much smaller drain on resources to garrison a country than to fight a strong foe in that country or surrounding regions)...
b) maximise the security of one's own means of production ( in this case the DEI) ( served by eliminating India as a base for amphibious or aerial assault towards the DEI)...
 
These are the same reasons given for the capture of Northern Australia and are, in that case, quite valid ( although slightly less so as the Northern Australia gambit is usually less decisive). Again, you have an opinion, others have different opinions. This is all quite acceptable.
 
 
Lastly I would STRONGLY disagree that the main enemy of Japan is the US Navy. Japan's main enemy is, and always will be, its delicate resource & oil situation. No matter how strong the US Navy is it is meaningless if it cannot further the curtailing of the flow of oil and resources to the home island. Certainly it is one of the most important means of achieving that curtailment but a strong navy does not necessarily equal that curtailment. A player who had managed to retake the DEI and cut off the flow of oil and resources but had lost the US Navy earlier in the game would be in a much stronger position than a player with a strong US Navy but very limited Pacific Holdings.
 
This is a game which mixes the operational, strategic and national policy objectives. It seems that it was always assumed that since Japan's national policy objectives are obvious the strategic means taken to achieve them would remain the same no matter what doctrinal outlook was applied. I would argue that this assumption is, obviously, fallacious and that differing doctrines brought to bear on the national policy objectives will yield different solutions ( strategic plans). In any case at the national policy level it really is always ALL about logistics and politics and any military actions should be aimed at either harming the enemy's logistical or political situation and all decisions made with the impact on logistics in mind. Worrying about the US Navy more than logistics is a path to massive failure for the Japanese IMO. Of course since you come from a Western doctrinal viewpoint it is entirely understandable that your view of these things would differ. Since I come at this ( and other strategic/operational/tactical situations) from a very different doctrinal standing I evaluate things differently.
 
 
As to your last points... You describe two types of players:
1. Recreators and
2. people who want to capture the whole map...
 
There are more types than that and to attempt to polarise the discussion by this labelling is "unhelpful". In many cases seeking to capture much of the map does not arise out of a desire to capture the map but, simply, arises out of a given doctrinal viewpoint which drives one to a different view than others.
 
 
Now can I suggest that as this AAR is going to be continuing shortly ( hopefully later today) that people take the discussion of extended maps and what players should play stock and what players should play extended maps to the war room or the general forum? I'd be happy to continue it there but that discussion, while tangentially involving this AAR, isn't really what an AAR is supposed to be about ok?
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by Nemo121 »

But you can't counter the LAYING of those mines by airplanes ( which is the operation that is banned). The second they fix this bug in the game I'll happily allow the Allied player to air-mine everywhere. I amn't interested in whether or not it advantages the Japanese or Allies. I just don't think EITHER side should be allowed to do something the other side can't counter given a game bug (which this has clearly been admitted to be).

Listen, I obviously think it is a fair rule as I'm applying it to myself when I play my Allied game and other gamers agree since they have it as a house rule in their games. Hell, in many of those games aerial mining is completely banned. Actually allowing it in hexes with no Japanese air presence is more generous than a lot of other's house rules.
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by treespider »

Perhaps we should all start playing Scenario 16 instead of Scenario 15.

The question is when do you view yourself as having arrived on the scene as the commander - November 7th or December 7th?

If it is November 7th then play with Historical 1st move off and not only should the Japanese player be allowed to reroute his initial TF to wherever he wants, but then the Allied Player should be allowed to reposition his forces as well.

However if you view yourself as having taken command on Decemeber 7th then everyone should play Historical move on and not touch a thing...I do not believe you can change anything with the move on.

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

But you can't counter the LAYING of those mines by airplanes ( which is the operation that is banned).

How would you counter laying of mines with submarines? I know its few mines but a 10 sub TF could lay enough mines to sink things at any port on the map. The special minelaying subs are even better at it.

If the Allies are using their bombers to lay mines they aren't using bombers to smash things up, in the same way those subs wouldn't be torpedoing things.

I have had the chance to play the Allies in 1943 and really, I didn't think the minelaying function was so useful myself, the usual airfield attack/bomb city was better. Bit like night bombing, I think thats only useful when the Jap masses an unfeasibly huge amount of fighters in one location and when the miniscule % of attrition night bombing inflicts is actually significant. Seems to me that thats the counter to massing huge numbers of fighters in one place to me!
Listen, I obviously think it is a fair rule as I'm applying it to myself when I play my Allied game and other gamers agree since they have it as a house rule in their games. Hell, in many of those games aerial mining is completely banned. Actually allowing it in hexes with no Japanese air presence is more generous than a lot of other's house rules.

Well, maybe. Its just that in my experience aerial mining wasnt really so useful.

I just remember mining Rangoon heavily with 4E bombers from Calcutta and all they did was cause me a headache later on when it came to my amphibious assault on Rangoon. [:D]. Mines are really defensive weapons IMO and so offensive operations with mines are a bit odd. If a base is in B-24 range chances are you want to be invading it at some point in the future! so mining it up isnt what you want. And if its in B-24 range you don't need to drop mines to sink enemy shipping, dropping bombs will work even better!
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by Nemo121 »

EUBanana,
 
1. How to counter mine-laying by subs. Sink the subs. If subs couldn't be attacked while on a mine-laying mission then I'd be happy to ban sub minelaying but it IS possible to intercept submarines on mine-laying missions so those missions are allowed.
 
 
2. FWIW I actually agree with you. I'd be happy to see an Allied player waste his planes on aerial mine-laying. I have enough MSW to assign one to every convoy I have ( including 20 knot MSW to accompany my military ships) and thus largely negate that threat. On the other hand, as I see it,  it isn't about getting advantage. It is about having some basic principles of what is and isn't allowed and then applying them consistently to real or possible game situations irrespective of whether it aids or hinders one side or the other. That's the approach I took anyways.
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Mogami


Issues that unbalance the game are simple.
1. Japan must not ever be allowed to move units between restricted HQ without paying PP. Such movement is not intended and has been stated as such since before games release.
2. Japan must not be permitted to use turn 1 movement for anything other then PH strike and movement between Japanese bases. (just use the 4 hex rule and be happy)
3. Japanese pilots should be trained using the "training" mission.  (The exploits are well known. while quite clever they should be avoided by any player who wants WITP work as intended. )
4. To be most accurate RD factories should be set to size 0. Players can then alter them as desired. Otherwise be happy for the free production on set dates and leave them alone.

Of course the above are guides for players trying to recreate the circumstances and realities of 1941-1946 using the intended design of WITP.

Mog,

Agree on 1,2 and 4 but point three is just [8|] to me. I had two PBEMs (as Allied) where my opponents used none training at all. Result: The game wasn´t fun, it was ridicoulos. That way I can play against AI too as there is nothing anyone can do against me from mid 43 on. Both games ended with the surrender of the Japanese. I might call myself experienced after all those turns I´ve done now (and I still learn new things) but without the Jap training every more or less experienced player should be able to crush the Japs until the end of 43 or middle of 44. In mid 44 there wouldn´t be a single Jap plane piloted by a even less trained pilot left and you just have to take 500 ships with 15CVs and 40 CVEs and sail to Japan!

So if you ban pilot training (or use the training mission - which is the same as a ban) you won´t have a:

Of course the above are guides for players trying to recreate the circumstances and realities of 1941-1946 using the intended design of WITP.
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by mogami »

Hi, So you let the Japanese out train the Allies just to make the game more fun? That must be where i go wrong as Japan. Since I know I can't replace my pilots I don't run wild lsoing them a few at a time till they are all gone. I horde them knowing I will require them later. It does cramp my style. I'm nearing 1944 in 3 PBEM games and I still have 1941 pilots left. (but I didn't capture Chungking or Karachi or land in Oz or score AV)
 
Japan does have pilot trainig. They get free trained pilots (all new groups and so many per month) plus all she can trian on map using the TRAINING mission. I don't use the make beleive training via bombing isolated base. (phooey)
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by fabertong »

It's interesting that lots of threads are mulling over the same themes.........to do mostly with house rules to make the most out of the game engine.......I suspect it is because lots of games are hitting mid'43-44....where a lot of early house rules come home to roost.....when I next start a new game my list of house rules will be much more involved......to protect my opponent as much as me.
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by Kereguelen »

ORIGINAL: castor troy
ORIGINAL: Mogami


Issues that unbalance the game are simple.
1. Japan must not ever be allowed to move units between restricted HQ without paying PP. Such movement is not intended and has been stated as such since before games release.
2. Japan must not be permitted to use turn 1 movement for anything other then PH strike and movement between Japanese bases. (just use the 4 hex rule and be happy)
3. Japanese pilots should be trained using the "training" mission. (The exploits are well known. while quite clever they should be avoided by any player who wants WITP work as intended. )
4. To be most accurate RD factories should be set to size 0. Players can then alter them as desired. Otherwise be happy for the free production on set dates and leave them alone.

Of course the above are guides for players trying to recreate the circumstances and realities of 1941-1946 using the intended design of WITP.

Mog,

Agree on 1,2 and 4 but point three is just [8|] to me. I had two PBEMs (as Allied) where my opponents used none training at all. Result: The game wasn´t fun, it was ridicoulos. That way I can play against AI too as there is nothing anyone can do against me from mid 43 on. Both games ended with the surrender of the Japanese. I might call myself experienced after all those turns I´ve done now (and I still learn new things) but without the Jap training every more or less experienced player should be able to crush the Japs until the end of 43 or middle of 44. In mid 44 there wouldn´t be a single Jap plane piloted by a even less trained pilot left and you just have to take 500 ships with 15CVs and 40 CVEs and sail to Japan!

So if you ban pilot training (or use the training mission - which is the same as a ban) you won´t have a:

Of course the above are guides for players trying to recreate the circumstances and realities of 1941-1946 using the intended design of WITP.

Hi,

I'm playing Mogami in PBEM. Game is in August 1943. Neighter side uses "combat training". As far as I can tell, Japan still has enough pilots to defend itself. Allies have air superiority, but I cannot "crush" Japan (as I don't use combat training, there're not many Allied fighter squadrons with XP of 60+). The game is still somewhat balanced. I assume that Mogami trains his pilots by disbanding trained chutais into depleted daitais and uses them to train new pilots up afterwards (by using the training mission). And he simply does not commit his full airforce in his outer perimeter. I never understood why many (Japanese) players insist, that using "combat training" is necessary for their survival (late-war Allied planes are better - so what? - it's a game about history and not "Space Battles"!).

K
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pauk
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RE: When Star Trek meets WWII

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
I'm playing Mogami in PBEM. Game is in August 1943. Neighter side uses "combat training". As far as I can tell, Japan still has enough pilots to defend itself. Allies have air superiority, but I cannot "crush" Japan (as I don't use combat training, there're not many Allied fighter squadrons with XP of 60+). The game is still somewhat balanced. I assume that Mogami trains his pilots by disbanding trained chutais into depleted daitais and uses them to train new pilots up afterwards (by using the training mission). And he simply does not commit his full airforce in his outer perimeter. I never understood why many (Japanese) players insist, that using "combat training" is necessary for their survival (late-war Allied planes are better - so what? - it's a game about history and not "Space Battles"!).

K

greetings,

Honestly, i do not know - perhaps you don't use 4E bombers overstacking and attacking with 100, 200, 300 heavies?

I suspect that you playing historical style with reasonable numbers of planes assigned on one target?


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