Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[Froonp]

Could you show also the Nanchang area, a little south of that screenshot ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Could you show also the Nanchang area, a little south of that screenshot ?

Sure. I guess that Lake Poyang is of interest.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: jcprom
 
Thanks, and congratulations on all the work done. The maps are gorgeous and the interface is really pleasant.

If I might suggest something, why not open a thread on play-testing with the new scale?

The obvious scenario which could be play-tested first is the Chinese war from May-June 1937 to November-December 1941.

I know the time frame starts before MWIF. However, play-testers could possibly handle the MJ37-SO39 part with printed China-only maps and their own counters from WIF:FE?

In addition to their comments, the number of land attacks per turn for each side would be interesting.

IMHO, if you get the Chinese war right (with an adequate mix of system-wide small modifications on breakdowns, divisions, territorials and garrisons?, handling of losses in land combat?, supply?), the rest (Burma/Malaysia/India, Japanese war wih Russia, US invasion of Japan...) is going to work pretty well.

Jerome

 
I believe that the beta testers could say something about this if they weren't operating under an NDA, which a thread on play-testing the China front would probably violate.

[IKerensky]

Looks like Nationalist China can again use the new scale to pull a thing on the Japanese army.
 
Put a black 1-2 strength unit in the hex with the chekiang label on the last map shown and you are seriously crippling the supply along the road... not to mention you will be quite costly and risky to get ride of.
 
But the situation look better now. Of course it is a matter of the new deployment area...
 
There is more town but the japanese still need a lot of HQ to cancel all thoses ZoC the chinese can put on roads from mountains area.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

Looks like Nationalist China can again use the new scale to pull a thing on the Japanese army.

Put a black 1-2 strength unit in the hex with the chekiang label on the last map shown and you are seriously crippling the supply along the road... not to mention you will be quite costly and risky to get ride of.

But the situation look better now. Of course it is a matter of the new deployment area...

There is more town but the japanese still need a lot of HQ to cancel all thoses ZoC the chinese can put on roads from mountains area.

Welcome.

It's not that bad, is it? Another rail line runs from Nanking to Nanchang for supply. And yes, the little Nationalist Chinese unit would be in excellent defensive position. But it would be out of supply, so if it moves 1 hex NW to really mess up supply, it would be easy to destroy.

And the Japanese set up 2nd, so they could position units to take it out in the first impulse. As the Japanese, all I ever want to do is kill 1 or 2 Chinese units every turn - with low odds of losing a unit myself. All sacrificial offerings are warmly accepted[:)]. Though when I play over the board, I would moan and groan about how unhappy I am with having to "clean up" all these little out of supply offerings[;)].

[IKerensky]

The new rail line is usefull... in good weather. It really help.
 
I think you underestimate the power of an OOS chinese corp being a river into a mountain. Especially if he had a Z.O.C. over 3 road hex.
 
First its value is at least 3, even flipped and out of supply... not that much but meaning you have to tie at least 18 points of Japanese troups to achieve the 3/1 +1 attack in good weather... with still some bad luck possible. Could be as strong as 9 if white printed...
 
And you have to use precious Oil and planes to flip it first...
 
If you want to by pass him you have to keep 3 units doing nothing but road guard duty for the supply to through the road. The Nanking Nanchang alternate road is nice, except it is long, meaning you have to use a HQ for it to be a supply source.
 
Another effect of the Chenkiang gambit ( very light gambit BTW ) is the ability to keep in ZoC and thus cancel for garrison duty, quite a lot of Japanese troups, meaning partisan car appear quite easily.
 
The partisan number in China is big, really big but the road are so far that you need a lot of unit in garrison for the chinesse not to pop you out of supply. My previous experience in CWiF told me the japanese attack force are very bristle, cant afford exchange and in case of bad weather if played with limited supply can be cut out by a PART and a CAV.
 
But the sitzkrieg is something you have to expect in China anyway.
 
I think the easiest balancing thing to achieve a Japanese potential on par with standard WiF experience is to adjust Chinese setup to interdict putting units East of the river Ju.
 
But all is very dependant of the optionnal rules... If playing the Oil rules war in China is not a possible objectives for Japan as he need more units in European scale, meaning more unit to ship back from Japan and too much oil spent in thoses move and reorganise to be able to take offensive action...
 
But that is just my personnal experience.
 
Great job on the map anyway, definitely a GREAT improvement...

[IKerensky]

Sorry if my previous post sound a bit harsh.

I was on my nerves when I submitted it, having a previous long post eated by internet explorer and being on a thread war on another forum.

Hope you wont take offense on my comments. You did a great job, I just want to point out that some players can think out of the box

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: KERENSKY

Sorry if my previous post sound a bit harsh.

I was on my nerves when I submitted it, having a previous long post eated by internet explorer and being on a thread war on another forum.

Hope you wont take offense on my comments. You did a great job, I just want to point out that some players can think out of the box

Not in the slightest - never occurred to me.

[composer99]

I would have to say that a lot of other posts in the past involve far harsher language (though, fortunately with rare exceptions not a lot of ad hominem).
 
The accumulation of data on how players' China campaigns have developed in CWiF is invaluable for understanding how the map change has altered the game, and thus how to model the Chinese and Japanese (and to a lesser extend Soviet, American and CW) AI behaviour to suit.

[IKerensky]

I was trying to post images from my set-up in CWiF but I realised that without knowing the full stage of the OOB changes if any, and the new set up area avalibale for chineses forces, there is no way for me to correlate between thoses maps.
 
But I want to point out that a chinese unit flipped and OOS in mountain is often nearly as strong that a standard one

[brian brian]

I was browsing through this thread today and noticed an important change on the new map. Maybe this has been discussed, but I can never seem to get the search feature to work here.

Picture this - the dry season 1944. (1943 if it is not a straight-up 'Germany first' US strategy). The Allies pierce the 'Malay Barrier' for the first time, taking their first port on the South China Sea. Maybe even without that, maybe a large expedition sets sail from Calcutta with some of the new 5 speed AMPHs or TRS (Island-hopping? Who needs it. Calcutta > any of several fine targets past the Strait of Malacca which WiF lets you sail through with nary a scratch is much faster and more efficient). Before leaving port, the Allies declared war on Portugal. Destination: Macao. Hovering not far away: Stilwell. Stilwell and whatever goodies the Allies can get through the probably ferocious Japanese response decisively threaten Canton and thus the future control of the South China Sea and thus the core of the Japanese economy.

Should the Allies have this new door to China? I know I was turned down in a request to have Goa be a port, despite it's definite geography. I'm sure Macao is a fine anchorage or the Portugese wouldn't have put a colony there. I think both hexes should be ports, and let the chips fall where they may. OR, take these new Portugese hexes off the map entirely. They are not on the current Asian map, only East Timor is. In the real war, first the Western Allies and then the Japanese occupied East Timor, and no one noticed, from a diplomatic point of view.

[Norman42]

I don't see this as a very large problem. There are several ports in that area of China that could be used to the same effect, and Japan is very unlikely to have any defence in most of them. Macao adding one more won't change much. If the WAllies can sail the South China Sea with impunity and launch invasions, then really any coastal hex is pretty much up for grabs, and the Macao/Hong Kong area is just one option (and not one that I'd choose to attack first, since you would now have to hold it against Japanese overland counterattacks).

That being said, the idea for an invasion of Hong Kong and Formosa was put forward by US planners(and supported by British leadership), but they decided to go through the Phillipenes instead, for political reasons mostly, but also because Hong Kong was a 'dead end' conquest. Capturing Hong Kong/Canton would have embroiled the US in the landwar in China, something they didn't want, nor would it have accomplished much to end the war.

To sum it up: by the time the Macao Gambit could be realistically played, it is most likely irrelevant as the allies should have multiple ports in range of the Japanese core sea zones already and the IJN is probably on the bottom of the ocean...in which case there are bigger and better targets than Canton.

[Norman42]

Just as a side note, I was in Hong Kong in 1987, and one night the sky lit up on the southern horizon.  When I asked my hosts what it was, they said it was "another fireworks factory in Macao exploding".  The southern sky was lit up like a rainbow coloured sunset at midnight.
 
Apparently it was a fairly frequent event.

[brian brian]

ahhh. So I forgot that China is much bigger now...while looking at the big map. D'oh. I think you're right, if the Allies decided to do this they could pick anywhere they wanted to land.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here are the start lines for Waking Giant and Day of Infamy in northern China (Nov/Dec 1941). [I've since fixed the Nationalist flag 2 hexes above Tungkwan so it is solid like the rest.]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here are teh start lines in southern China for the same time period. This also shows the addition of the "river road" from Nanking to Nanchang, Wuhan, and Ichang. Data by Patrice, included in version 10.00.

[sajbalk]

Canton is surrounded by Port. and CW holdings as to the Sea. I has thought that a hex belonged to someone, that is no naval units or air units could cross a hex that belonged to a neutral power, even if there was ocean in the hex. This is obviously not the case in the War, but I thought a hex belonged to a country/terr or it was all sea.

This interpretation may be wrong and certainly must be coded differently, otherwise the Japanese units in Canton would be out of supply and no naval units could dock there unless at war with the CW or Port.

Is a part ocean/part land hex one that belongs to someone, or may all units sail through and fly over without consequence?

[composer99]

The Japanese can still trace an overseas supply line out of Canton and naval units may freely enter and leave, since part of the hex is coastal area. At least, that is what  it appears to be on the map.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99

The Japanese can still trace an overseas supply line out of Canton and naval units may freely enter and leave, since part of the hex is coastal area. At least, that is what  it appears to be on the map.

Sure, there is a port also, so we don't care about the Portuguese & CW hexes.

[sajbalk]

May then an airplane from Canton overfly the ocean part of the Macau hex to rebase at extended range, if Portugal is neutral?