Comprehensive Wishlist

Post discussions and advice on TOAW scenario design here.

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jmlima
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: jmlima

From my experience in developing games, I'm beginning to have an idea of what's happening here...

I've got an idea as well. One doesn't really need to have experience in game design to guess.

What's happening here is that you're being defeated by superior ideas. Try coming up with some better ones.

My point was not regarding ideological debates...

But far from me from raining on your parade, I'm certain that when we see the patch, or TOAW 4, or the wish-list items you so vigorously defend implemented, we can then judge the validity of them.

For me, if you want to only incorporate the items of your wish-list, then so be it, we would indeed have a fine simulation, and I would be very happy. As it is, the wish-list seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking, without any real produce as an outcome, hence, it remains as theoretical and unproven as any of the other ideas tossed around, and subject to questions being raised on it's validity. In fact , I would be glad to be proven wrong, and see that wish-list implemented. Please do not let any objections get in the way of seeing it implemented in my lifetime.

There's one point I never saw discussed though, the feasibility of implementing the wish-list items, versus the feasibility of incorporating some of the 'work around' ideas being tossed around. I think Ralph could chime in on this one also, if he so pleases of course. Since he is actually the one doing all the work.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: jmlima

From my experience in developing games, I'm beginning to have an idea of what's happening here...

I've got an idea as well. One doesn't really need to have experience in game design to guess.

What's happening here is that you're being defeated by superior ideas. Try coming up with some better ones.


Taken in context, that's a really witty remark.

You are, after all, the guy who thinks supply is like cell phone coverage. If ten people can talk in Eastern Oregon, a hundred can, and likewise with the supply paradigm TOAW uses. If the Wehrmacht can support an attack by two divisions on Murmansk, it can support an attack by twenty.

Then there's your refusal to admit that artillery and armor simply become useless when they run out of supplies.

Then there's your idea that one can move just as fast in the presence of heavy interdiction as otherwise.

Then there's your notion that the way to model AA's effect is to have it shoot down planes.

Then there's your notion that wadis are like trenches.

Finally, and perhaps worst of all, once you've adopted your position on any of these issues or anything else, you will bitterly and vociferously defend it, making free use of whatever abusive language comes to hand. You just keep concocting increasingly spurious defences of whatever your original position was, no matter how absurd the claims you have to start making as a consequence. The 'wadi' argument was an excellent illustration of that.

Forward progress becomes impossible. I'm perfectly happy to discuss the flaws in my ideas or anyone else's -- but it never comes to that. We just wind up yanking on the rope of this donkey that takes pride in its obstinate refusal to budge one inch -- no matter how absurd its position. It also happens to be a donkey that kicks, but that's the least of the problem. The central difficulty is that it just won't move. Constructive conversation is ruled out. It's Curtis' way or the highway -- and we can rest assured that Curtis' way will be pretty damned bad.

I'm not sure whether it's a matter of your being really stupid, or just pathologically stubborn, but in the end it doesn't matter. Either way, you do take up really inane positions and defend them come hell or high water. This -- given the position you occupy -- makes intelligent development of TOAW highly unlikely. Either (a), the problem won't be admitted, or (b) some completely unworkable approach will be adopted. See, for example, your pathetic attempts to address the problems of AA by tinkering with the kill rate. That's never going to do it, and it never will, because that's not how AA exerts an effect. But can that get admitted? Can we move to a discussion of how to make AA exert something like its actual effect? Oh no -- we have to restrict ourselves to moving the kill rate up and down. Why? Because that's all Curtis will consider.


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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


...It's completely absurd that artillery units being out of ammo (not fuel) would have to be abandoned. And when forces retreat, it's almost always the foot-bound stuff that gets left behind, not the mechanized forces...

Just cutting out the verbal abuse here and getting down to the one valid objection.

Yeah, that is so. At least it was true in North Africa, when Rommel fell back from El Alamein. How true it was elsewhere I don't know. More generally -- Russia, France in 1944 -- forces turned up three hundred miles rearward with a lot of their men but not much else. Indeed, tank forces at least tend to lose most of their tanks when they have to retreat precipitately over long distances. (Any vehicle that breaks down or runs out of fuel has to be abandoned.)

Just the reverse of what you are insisting on.

There was my idea about having units abandon their equipment. One could also simply set the limit to which unit's supply could be reduced in the opposing player's turn higher than 1%. This last would also have the happy effect of rendering 'supply burning attacks' less useful.

I'm up for modifications. I'm not dogmatically clinging to my idea regardless of how unworkable or unrealistic it's shown to be.

However, the central point -- and the one we can't get you to grant -- is that non-mechanized, non-artillery forces really do have lower supply requirements, and really do retain much more functionality than other types of forces.

More immediately, I just don't see much validity to your attempt to address this problem by distinguishing between POL and ammunition. Generally, forces that are low on one are low on the other. Rommel, after all, wasn't just low on ammo. He was forced to fatally modify his attack at Alam el Halfa due to lack of fuel. The Sixth Army at Stalingrad quickly found itself with crippling shell shortages -- and crippling fuel shortages. I imagine the Germans in Normandy found it difficult both to bring up ammunition and to bring up fuel.

We could distinguish between ammunition and POL. We could add in drinking water, locally obtainable fodder, food, medical supplies...

In the end, we'd just have a game that couldn't be played without a full staff for each corps. That's an interesting concept, and perhaps something West Point should look into, but it's not what we want.

Given that I don't see any dramatic difference between how POL and ammunition supply either works or winds up being expended in most situations (forces that are burning the one usually are burning the other), it doesn't strike me as an especially useful idea. After all, it won't improve matters if we find ourselves looking at a 'POL level' for a Cossack cavalry division.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




What sophistry.

How is it sophistry? If you're going to use a big word, look up what it means.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright



The quick 'n dirty solution is to only allow units to go to a state of 'negative supply' in their half of the turn. It seems to me that it would be fairly easy to make the program could simply restore all units not meeting that qualification to 1% supply when the turn ends.

Not going to work. Units would be falling into the state long before the need to abandon the defense arrived...

Now this actually illustrates one reason attempts to talk to you are fruitless.

Whatever the other shortcomings of my idea, you obviously failed to consider what I said.

If units cannot fall into negative supply while defending, they aren't going to fall below 1% supply unless they attack, and so cannot fall into the state of negative supply while defending.

Yet you promptly pose this as an objection.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

It's worth revisiting the supply problem issue at this point. Curt's idea about POL versus ammo really isn't going to help much.

What we need is a volume-based system where players can set the supply priority for units. It's tricky to work out how to do this, but it really is what's needed.

Everything I read and consider keeps telling this is so. Four examples:

German mountain troops cross the Caucasus. However, they can't mount a serious attack on Sukhumi or whatever because while they can bring up supply for their infantry over the passes, they can't bring over anything like the volume that artillery would require. There's a trickle, and that trickle will feed a few infantry regiments -- but that's it.

The British look to their dispositions after Beda Fomm and the decision to support Greece. They decide they can support only one division as far west as El Agheila, and only one division more up around Benghazi. They have more troops -- but they don't have the logistical capability to support them that far west.

The Germans attack Murmansk. Attack with what? Well, not with ten heavily equipped divisions, that's for sure. What passes for infrastructure up there simply can't deliver the necessary volume of supplies. I dunno whether the Germans could have brought more than the two mountain divisions they used to bear -- but they certainly weren't going to attack with three panzer divisions.

The Germans are encircled at Stalingrad. They can keep their infantry on life support as far as ammunition and food go for a while -- but the tanks and artillery simply cannot be allowed to operate. There isn't anything like the volume of supply coming in that these would require.

Rommel decides to retreat from El Alamein. Who gets a ride? That is to say, who gets enough 'supply' to move?

Volume, volume, volume. Volume and priority.
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Panama
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Panama »

I want to play the scenario. I don't want to spend all my time messing with logistics. If it gets more complicated than ammo and fuel then keep it as it is.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Taken in context, that's a really witty remark.

I suppose I should keep quiet while being falsely accused of ... whatever it was you were implying.
You are, after all, the guy who thinks supply is like cell phone coverage. If ten people can talk in Eastern Oregon, a hundred can, and likewise with the supply paradigm TOAW uses. If the Wehrmacht can support an attack by two divisions on Murmansk, it can support an attack by twenty.

Didn't I just answer this canard back on post #89 in the FITE Opinions thread?

Regardless, I'll repeat it: That was never my position. My position was that addressing this would only usefully benefit a specific suite of scenarios. Most would not really benefit. It was a priority issue.
Then there's your refusal to admit that artillery and armor simply become useless when they run out of supplies.

No. I refuse to admit that artillery and armor (or anything else) are out of supply just because they've reached 1% unit supply levels. That would be absurd (again, see that post #89).
Then there's your idea that one can move just as fast in the presence of heavy interdiction as otherwise.

Again, that was not my position. My position was that the total exposure incurred getting from A to B in daylight is independent of the speed you take to get there. There was no evidence that moving slower got you any real cumulative benefit. The real way to get from A to B in the presence of heavy interdiction is to move at night. Furthermore, the mechanism you proposed was severely flawed.
Then there's your notion that the way to model AA's effect is to have it shoot down planes.

Well, it does shoot down planes! But you want it to affect bombardment efficacy as well. I say that's already built in. We know that because bombing results are respectably historical. The game assumes that bombers are taking precautions against AAA. Perhaps there should be a bombing boost for those rare occasion where the target has no AAA, and the bombers know it. But those are rare exceptions.
Then there's your notion that wadis are like trenches.

My position is that the Wadi tile in TOAW is modeling a dry river bed - and nothing else. As such, it's only benefit would be to shelter defenders inside it. Canyons, cliffs, marsh, mountains, etc. are features that have to be added.

Try and actually understand my position before you erect your straw men.
Finally, and perhaps worst of all, once you've adopted your position on any of these issues or anything else, you will bitterly and vociferously defend it, making free use of whatever abusive language comes to hand. You just keep concocting increasingly spurious defences of whatever your original position was, no matter how absurd the claims you have to start making as a consequence. The 'wadi' argument was an excellent illustration of that.

I do change my mind if I'm shown to be wrong. But my positions are reasoned and I stick to the facts. My comments are directed at the positions, not the person.

You, on the other hand, revert to personal comments right from the getgo every time. It's your MO. Take this post, for example - it's nothing but personal comments. And it's the same in almost every post you make.

Here's a novel idea: Just once, stick to the facts and defend your position on its merits alone. Wouldn't that be a sight!
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


Now this actually illustrates one reason attempts to talk to you are fruitless.

Whatever the other shortcomings of my idea, you obviously failed to consider what I said.

If units cannot fall into negative supply while defending, they aren't going to fall below 1% supply unless they attack, and so cannot fall into the state of negative supply while defending.

Yet you promptly pose this as an objection.

Allright, I suppose if it doesn't move at all, that will work. But, generally, there is some repostioning before the front finally craters. Regardless, they will be stuck the very next turn after they retreat.

Let's rattle off some more objections:

Players have no option. "Thou Shalt Not Moveth Thy Tank or Thy Artillery". Contrast this with Item 5.9: The player could opt to press on (Rommel-like) if he felt the situation warranted it. His forces would drop equipment as he did so, but perhaps the enemy will prove to be too weak to resist even the weakened pursuers.

The vanguard of any advance/spearhead will be (drumroll, please): Anything except armor! That, of course, is if you allow mechanized/motorized infantry to be exempt. If not, the spearhead will be foot units! Or maybe AAA - depends upon just who this is applied to.

It doesn't fix the infinite supply line issue. Infantry can press on to infinity at 1% supply forever. They can circumnavigate the Earth multiple times and still press on. Contrast this to Item 5.9, which absolutely ends it. The further one gets beyond the full supply net the slower one must proceed to avoid attrition.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

More immediately, I just don't see much validity to your attempt to address this problem by distinguishing between POL and ammunition.

Component supply will help some. But the main feature I'm hawking is Wishlist item 5.9. Take a look at that (I summarized it in post # 669).
Generally, forces that are low on one are low on the other.

If they've just been moving and not fighting, they'll only be low on fuel. This would enable unit to manuver against a defender's flanks without redlining his combat strength. If they've just been fighting and not moving - mostly the reverse. Defenders would be able to fall back and regroup.
In the end, we'd just have a game that couldn't be played without a full staff for each corps. That's an interesting concept, and perhaps something West Point should look into, but it's not what we want.

There would just be two supply values on each unit instead of one. They would impact the combat strengths and movement allowances differently, of course, but automatically. Players would function just like before - using just those two values (Combat Strength and Movement Allowance) in their decision process.
Given that I don't see any dramatic difference between how POL and ammunition supply either works or winds up being expended in most situations (forces that are burning the one usually are burning the other), it doesn't strike me as an especially useful idea. After all, it won't improve matters if we find ourselves looking at a 'POL level' for a Cossack cavalry division.

Let's see... Should I accuse you of being "Roadblock Colin"? Obstructing all ideas? [:D]

Oh, and that Cossack cavalry division does use fuel. It's just not gasoline - it's fodder.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: jmlima

For me, if you want to only incorporate the items of your wish-list, then so be it, we would indeed have a fine simulation, and I would be very happy. As it is, the wish-list seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking, without any real produce as an outcome, hence, it remains as theoretical and unproven as any of the other ideas tossed around, and subject to questions being raised on it's validity. In fact , I would be glad to be proven wrong, and see that wish-list implemented. Please do not let any objections get in the way of seeing it implemented in my lifetime.

The Wishlist is exactly that - nothing but a record of everyone's wishes. It serves only two purposes: To keep them from being fogotten, and to keep people from needing to constantly repeat them here.

I don't see any reason why suggestions shouldn't be subject to critical scrutiny before being implemented, though. Do you?
There's one point I never saw discussed though, the feasibility of implementing the wish-list items, versus the feasibility of incorporating some of the 'work around' ideas being tossed around. I think Ralph could chime in on this one also, if he so pleases of course. Since he is actually the one doing all the work.

I think Ralph should keep developing the game and not waste time trying to gauge which those hundreds of items will take more or less time. That's rarely possible before the fact anyway.
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jmlima
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
...
I think Ralph should keep developing the game and not waste time trying to gauge which those hundreds of items will take more or less time. That's rarely possible before the fact anyway.

Actually it is relevant when you use him to defend your positions, as when you stated that he would need a lobotomy (your words) before a proposed change would be implemented.

And you're wrong, he is perfectly capable of estimating the time it will take before he starts doing it, any professional can do that in his area of expertise, to a reasonable degree of precision. That's how you do feasibility studies.

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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


Now this actually illustrates one reason attempts to talk to you are fruitless.

Whatever the other shortcomings of my idea, you obviously failed to consider what I said.

If units cannot fall into negative supply while defending, they aren't going to fall below 1% supply unless they attack, and so cannot fall into the state of negative supply while defending.

Yet you promptly pose this as an objection.

Allright, I suppose if it doesn't move at all, that will work. But, generally, there is some repostioning before the front finally craters. Regardless, they will be stuck the very next turn after they retreat.

Note that this is why in the real world commanders get very nervous if they have no reserves. You see, you have these troops you haven't committed to combat, and you use these to...

Let's rattle off some more objections:

Players have no option. "Thou Shalt Not Moveth Thy Tank or Thy Artillery". Contrast this with Item 5.9: The player could opt to press on (Rommel-like) if he felt the situation warranted it. His forces would drop equipment as he did so, but perhaps the enemy will prove to be too weak to resist even the weakened pursuers.

But is it workable? You seem to think I'm wedded Curtis-like to my solution and only my solution. I'm not -- it's your invariable tactic of stonewalling regardless of the merits of the situation that gets on my nerves.

The vanguard of any advance/spearhead will be (drumroll, please): Anything except armor! That, of course, is if you allow mechanized/motorized infantry to be exempt. If not, the spearhead will be foot units! Or maybe AAA - depends upon just who this is applied to.

Sure -- but let's hear what you propose instead. Don't just try to assert that the current situation is somehow satisfactory. In TOAW-land, offensives often can and should be pushed when in reality they would come to a grinding halt. In history, when exhausted attackers are squaring off against exhausted defenders, the defense almost invariably prevails. Not in TOAW...

Perhaps a rule along the lines of what I proposed should apply to artillery alone. If artillery shut down if it fell into 'negative supply' as a result of use during its own turn, then the attack would perforce become anaemic, and any pursuit could be stopped by a reasonably well-manned line.

Whatever. Just don't dig in and insist that all possible change would be for the worst.


It doesn't fix the infinite supply line issue. Infantry can press on to infinity at 1% supply forever. They can circumnavigate the Earth multiple times and still press on. Contrast this to Item 5.9, which absolutely ends it. The further one gets beyond the full supply net the slower one must proceed to avoid attrition.

So you're just going to wait until I come up with one solution that addresses all problems?

That would seem to meet your needs nicely. It won't do much for TOAW, though.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: jmlima

For me, if you want to only incorporate the items of your wish-list, then so be it, we would indeed have a fine simulation, and I would be very happy. As it is, the wish-list seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking, without any real produce as an outcome, hence, it remains as theoretical and unproven as any of the other ideas tossed around, and subject to questions being raised on it's validity. In fact , I would be glad to be proven wrong, and see that wish-list implemented. Please do not let any objections get in the way of seeing it implemented in my lifetime.

The Wishlist is exactly that - nothing but a record of everyone's wishes. It serves only two purposes: To keep them from being fogotten, and to keep people from needing to constantly repeat them here.

I don't see any reason why suggestions shouldn't be subject to critical scrutiny before being implemented, though. Do you?
There's one point I never saw discussed though, the feasibility of implementing the wish-list items, versus the feasibility of incorporating some of the 'work around' ideas being tossed around. I think Ralph could chime in on this one also, if he so pleases of course. Since he is actually the one doing all the work.

I think Ralph should keep developing the game and not waste time trying to gauge which those hundreds of items will take more or less time. That's rarely possible before the fact anyway.

And presumably it will be you that sifts the suggestions and instructs him on which should be implemented. Something to reflect the trench-like characteristics of wadis, for example. Or perhaps the need to differentiate between POL and ammunition. Maybe we need to move the ability of AA to shoot down planes back down a bit after all...

That way, Ralph needn't bother his pretty little head about the actual merit of the suggestions. That'll be left in your expert hands.
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ColinWright
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama

I want to play the scenario. I don't want to spend all my time messing with logistics. If it gets more complicated than ammo and fuel then keep it as it is.

Sure -- but Curtis' POL idea isn't going to accomplish much at all except to create some ahistorical situations. POL isn't a universal need, the effects of ammunition shortage vary, and generally, forces that are low on fuel are low on ammo as well, and vice-versa. We might as well differentiate between sock supply and shoe supply.

We need to somehow overcome Roadblock LeMay and get Ralph to analyze whether a volume-based supply system is workable. It won't be more complicated -- just different.

Now, maybe we genuinely can't come up with a volume-based supply situation -- although I'm inclined to doubt it. The problem of how to most efficiently distribute goods to consumers is just a little too common for there not to be computer routines to handle it.

Or maybe Ralph just doesn't have the frigging time. He might have eighty hours he can devote to TOAW over the next six months, and this would call for something like five hundred hours.

So be it. But I'd like to see the issue genuinely considered. As it is, Curtis just piles on specious objections whenever it is proposed. As far as I can tell, nothing ever gets a fair hearing unless its Curtis' idea in the first place, and his ideas are usually damned bad.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Oh, and that Cossack cavalry division does use fuel. It's just not gasoline - it's fodder.

Yes -- but to some extent that's my point. Depending on the circumstances, some fodder is going to be locally available, and within reason, your horse will keep 'running' for a while after the gas gauge touches empty.

The gist of it is that as with leg infantry, the decline in ability to move and loss of combat potency due to lack of supply is much less marked than it is with artillery and mechanized troops. This is why, for example, when the Sixth Army was planning its breakout from the pocket, it was planned to leave all artillery and all armor behind. Anything that relied on an engine couldn't move. Infantry still could -- particularly if the alternative was to be left behind to the tender mercies of the Red Army.

If we had a mechanism that properly reflected the difference between these two curves, we'd have a better game. After all, in TOAW, if one did break out of Stalingrad, it would be your tanks and motorized artillery that would be most likely to make it to safety. That's the opposite of what would in fact have happened.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: ColinWright

More immediately, I just don't see much validity to your attempt to address this problem by distinguishing between POL and ammunition.

Component supply will help some. But the main feature I'm hawking is Wishlist item 5.9. Take a look at that (I summarized it in post # 669).

I take it you mean this:

"...Step one in implementing this would be to give Ralph a lobotomy. As I've pointed out, it actually facilitates offensives continuing indefinitely because it is more harmful to the defense than the offense. The offense would only have to rest their armor and artillery. The defense would have to abandon theirs. Add that there's no direct correlation between the unit's icon and what equipment it actually contains.

Item 5.9 (Over-Extended Supply) in the Wishlist addresses this more realistically. The problem with TOAW is that there is no "tentative" supply condition. You're either "supplied", which is very beneficial, or "unsupplied" which is very deleterious. There's nothing inbetween. This would add a third supply state that would have properties of both. If in this state, you would have a line of communications and would still receive supply and replacements. But you would also suffer attrition similar to being unsupplied (but losses would go to the pools instead of the dead pile). This state would be triggered if the hex had a supply level below the designer set level. (So, if the setting was 10, then any hex with 9 supply or less would be "Over-Extended".

Once in this condition, units would have to slow-down / pause to recover supply sufficiently to keep above the unit supply level that would cause them attrition (or even wait for the full supply net to catch up to them) or find themselves withering away. The defender, in contrast, would be falling back on his full supply net, and would be better able to make a stand.

This would directly address the "infinite" supply line problem. As well as the need to pause after an advance to build up supply..."



It'd have led to a wider readership if you hadn't led off by implying that Ralph would need a lobotomy before he considered anyone else's suggestions but yours. You might want to think about that. Put your insults at the end of the post, not the beginning.

That said, I still think your POL idea makes about as much sense as deciding whether to help people who can't pay their electricity bill or help people who can't pay their gas bill. They're usually one and the same.

However, the 'third state' has real potential -- and handled right, it would affect the attacker more than the defender.

It's not a comprehensive solution -- it doesn't do anything about situations where we're not talking about sweeping advances in the first place, and it does nothing to address the different impact of supply shortage on the different combat arms -- but it could well improve matters.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

Thinking about the merits of one of my suggestions -- that under certain circumstances artillery and armor be converted to 'static' equipment that the player has the option of abandoning, this has the merit of covering more situations than I realized when I proposed it.

I was of course thinking of it as a way of allowing defenders to retreat in spite of a lack of supply. However, in a different form, it happens a lot.

Specifically, amphibious evacuations. At Dunkirk, Greece, and Crete, the British were able to bring off a lot of men -- but they had to leave their equipment behind. Right through the summer of of 1940, British Home Forces were still fielding artillery units serving as infantry -- and this happened again on Crete. These were artillery units that had had to leave their guns behind. Something similar would have happened if the Germans had ever managed to break out of Stalingrad -- indeed, the need for such a measure was one of the arguments against staging the breakout at all.

Inasmuch as I'm wrestling with a scenario where I would like it to be possible to stage such evacuations, this particular idea has more attractions than I had realized.
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RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Taken in context, that's a really witty remark.

I suppose I should keep quiet while being falsely accused of ... whatever it was you were implying.
You are, after all, the guy who thinks supply is like cell phone coverage. If ten people can talk in Eastern Oregon, a hundred can, and likewise with the supply paradigm TOAW uses. If the Wehrmacht can support an attack by two divisions on Murmansk, it can support an attack by twenty.

Didn't I just answer this canard back on post #89 in the FITE Opinions thread?

Regardless, I'll repeat it: That was never my position. My position was that addressing this would only usefully benefit a specific suite of scenarios. Most would not really benefit. It was a priority issue.

Lessee: scenarios it would benefit.

Any Eastern Front scenario that incorporates the fighting either above the Arctic circle or across the Caucasus.

Any scenario covering the situation the Allies faced after they broke out from Normandy.

Any scenario treating North Africa.

Any scenario treating Sealion (the more troops the Germans land, the worse their supply will be).

That's just off the top of my head. It seems like a lot to me...

Really, the problem is that abstracted to its fundamentals, supply is a matter of volume. If you don't use a volume-based system, you're going to run into problems.

We have a supply system that operates on a paradigm that doesn't match reality. It's not a canard to compare the current system to a cellphone network: that is how it functions. Not surprisingly, it keeps delivering unsatisfactory results. It doesn't mirror reality. Supply isn't like a cell-phone network.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
fogger
Posts: 1449
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:36 am

RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

Post by fogger »

Where I come from saying that someone needs a lobotomy is an insult. From my understanding Ralph is doing the update out of his goodwill. What would happen if he said “shove it where it does not see the light of day”? We would be very unhappy and what is the best war-game in the world would become a has been. So I hope the comments about Ralph are kept civilised.
Thought for the day:
If you feel like doing some work, sit down and wait....... The feeling does go away.
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