AE Map, Base, Economic Issues [OUTDATED]

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: JeffK

But that approach opens up a lot of potential sites which weren't used IRL.

I thought that was exactly the idea? Real life sites that could have been used, whether they were used or not? But because they (realistically) could have been used it becomes theplayer's choice to use them or not. [:)]

Yes, that is the idea. Taken to its logical extreme there should be a dot base in EVERY land hex, but that is not so feasible with this design...

Andrew

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: JeffK

But that approach opens up a lot of potential sites which weren't used IRL.

I thought that was exactly the idea? Real life sites that could have been used, whether they were used or not? But because they (realistically) could have been used it becomes theplayer's choice to use them or not. [:)]

As Andrew mentions below/above, almost every hex should be a dot as they were capable of development if enough resources were thrown at them.

But as only selected hexes are chosen, it becomes important where those hexes are and if the game allows ahistorical use, ie Can I refuel my CV TF at this base (about 20km upstream? At least the current village is.)

As I havent seen the whole map I'll have to accept its been done with some thought, as mentioned, If I dont like them I can change it. But be wary of their exploitation in any PBEM.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

OK,

But that approach opens up a lot of potential sites which weren't used IRL.

My reading is that the original reinforcement unit (of less than company size) went by lugger to Terapo, by canoe up to the headwaters then by narrow track to the Wau/Bululo area. All following reos went in by air.
(I recently read "The Battle for Wau", a great coverage of a very little known area of WW2 but at $70AUD grossly overpriced.)

But, as always, if I dont like it I can change it later. [8D]

A lot of potential sites weren't used, and a lot of those used turned out to be highly malarial or otherwise unsuitable. The limitations were manpower and terrain intelligence not sites.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Oooh,

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/058678

Maybe it rates as a L1 port, and it did have an emergency landing field (like a hundred other places)

(Maybe I'd be less concerned if it was in another location, but it becomes a backdoor into PNG & somewhere to outflank Pt Moresby. Just have to wait to see how its used.)

Based on Fire in the Sky, most emergency landing fields were just that--an opportunity to get down out of the sky--and once the pilot walked away from the aircraft, it never flew again. Bergerud also points out that the Japanese were very inefficient at cannibalising aircraft, so that operational losses were less than certain. In game terms, the bigger the ground crew force, the lower the operational loss rate, but most aircraft required rework and repair after a mission.

[JeffroK]

A good newspaper article detailing the port facilities and condition of the track to Wau

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 77,00.html

[Andy Mac]

Port level 0 means without massive investment you will not be able to supply Terapo easily
 
You have no idea how important Ports are now - having a massive AF at a poor port with no good road to a port means its not really viable as a long term base without massive investment
 
To make that base viable as an airbase you would need to get port to lvl 3 (i.e. max)
 
Andy

[JeffroK]

I understand, but I notice in your AAR a base and airfield has been built. It would have been a lot cheaper to build than your invasion of Pt Moresby.
 
While a small airfield is reasonable in this location, Terapo, or Port Chalmers(Chambers?) is at the moth of a river which is covered by a sand bar, as mentioned in the article above the coastal shipping is unloded to outrigger canoes and smaller luggers for carrying to shore. 
 
Terapo is some 10-20 kilometres inland (see Google maps & 1950-60's maps on the Perry Castenada Library website)
 
Adding potential bases is a great idea, but only if they have the potential to be developed.
I assume that the small airfields between Milne Bay & Buna which were used to fly in units of 32 US Inf Div are in the game, as well as the small ports like Portlock Hbr & Wanigela which allowed barge movement between Milne Bay & Buna ar in as well.
 
I suppose its a warning for all AE players, you are going to have a lot more bases to cover to ensure your flanks are safe.

[Jorm]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Currently Australia has two refineries in the AE (Melbourne and Sydney). But this is still under review. Andrew Brown could tell you more.

It has been brought to my attention that the Melbourne refinery (COR) was not in use during the war, so the only "refinery" in Australia will be a tiny refinery centre in Sydney representing the shale oil plants in NSW. Total output a massive 40 fuel/supply points per day.

Australia needs shipments of fuel, a lot of which is available in the Middle East.

Andrew

Groovy,
Where did you hear that about the COR refinery not producing during WWII ?. Its professional interest on my part, im a fuels and lubricant chemist for the dept of defence and energy security and history thereof is of great interest nowadays.


cheers

[JeffroK]

Commonwealth Oil Refineries (COR) was established in 1920 and by 1924 it had built Australia's first oil refinery at Laverton in Victoria. In 1952, the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company bought out the Australian Government's interests in COR and the company's name was later changed to BP Australia Pty Ltd.

(Accurate subject to being looked at properly[8D])

Plus

http://vhd.heritage.vic.gov.au/places/heritage/14978
http://vhd.heritage.vic.gov.au/places/heritage/22285

[JeffroK]

Andy's spies appear to be correct

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/second_ ... elID=67920
Chapter 10

The only two refineries operating in Australia at the outbreak of war
were the Shell Company of Australia's plant at Clyde, New South Wales ,
and that of the Commonwealth Oil Refinery at Laverton, Victoria. Between
them they possessed the capacity for refining about 20 per cent of
the petroleum products consumed in Australia in peace time . Both plants
were closed for most of the war : the Shell Refinery from February 1942
(after Borneo, whence it drew its supplies, fell to the Japanese) to March
1946, and the C .O.R. from March 1942 to November 1946. Another
reason for the inactivity of these refineries was that there was, in Allied
countries, a much greater shortage of crude oil tankers than of refining
capacity. For this reason the Commonwealth Oil Board took the view
that the substantial storage tanks at the local refineries would be better
employed for holding refined rather than crude oil.

But if we are talking potential, they were there if you ship in Oil, but its probably more efficient to ship Fuel

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Andy's spies appear to be correct

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/second_ ... elID=67920
Chapter 10

The only two refineries operating in Australia at the outbreak of war
were the Shell Company of Australia's plant at Clyde, New South Wales ,
and that of the Commonwealth Oil Refinery at Laverton, Victoria. Between
them they possessed the capacity for refining about 20 per cent of
the petroleum products consumed in Australia in peace time . Both plants
were closed for most of the war : the Shell Refinery from February 1942
(after Borneo, whence it drew its supplies, fell to the Japanese) to March
1946, and the C .O.R. from March 1942 to November 1946. Another
reason for the inactivity of these refineries was that there was, in Allied
countries, a much greater shortage of crude oil tankers than of refining
capacity. For this reason the Commonwealth Oil Board took the view
that the substantial storage tanks at the local refineries would be better
employed for holding refined rather than crude oil.

But if we are talking potential, they were there if you ship in Oil, but its probably more efficient to ship Fuel

Tanks JeffK that is very, very interesting. So their closure during the war may have been more to do with lack of crude oil, than a technical difficulty. I will have to have a look at the references you have provided - I haven't come across them before.

Andrew

[Sardaukar]

So according to that, they should actually be there, if player decides to ship oil from USA or Middle East to Australia?

[Jorm]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Andy's spies appear to be correct

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/second_ ... elID=67920
Chapter 10

The only two refineries operating in Australia at the outbreak of war
were the Shell Company of Australia's plant at Clyde, New South Wales ,
and that of the Commonwealth Oil Refinery at Laverton, Victoria. Between
them they possessed the capacity for refining about 20 per cent of
the petroleum products consumed in Australia in peace time . Both plants
were closed for most of the war : the Shell Refinery from February 1942
(after Borneo, whence it drew its supplies, fell to the Japanese) to March
1946, and the C .O.R. from March 1942 to November 1946. Another
reason for the inactivity of these refineries was that there was, in Allied
countries, a much greater shortage of crude oil tankers than of refining
capacity. For this reason the Commonwealth Oil Board took the view
that the substantial storage tanks at the local refineries would be better
employed for holding refined rather than crude oil.

But if we are talking potential, they were there if you ship in Oil, but its probably more efficient to ship Fuel

Tanks JeffK that is very, very interesting. So their closure during the war may have been more to do with lack of crude oil, than a technical difficulty. I will have to have a look at the references you have provided - I haven't come across them before.

Andrew

Yes very interesting information.
So the shale production still needs to be in and potentially two other functional refineries.

good find JeffK

[JeffroK]

No worries,

I used to work in Altona Nth and also spent years on the train from Geelong so went through the refinery areas every day. I knew of the C.O.R station which was just after the line crossed Kororoit Ck Rd heading to Melb, now a vacant lot though starting to be developed.

[bradfordkay]

"But if we are talking potential, they were there if you ship in Oil, but its probably more efficient to ship Fuel"

Which is the exact opposite of the way it plays out in WITP.

[oldman45]

I came across some references in Morisons book (History of United States Naval Operations) to an atoll north of Isbell island in the solomons.  Ontong Java is huge and might have made a great anchorage if the Allies wanted to retake Rabul or stage to Truk from the south. 
 
Visual aid to the size of the atoll
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ontong_java_1934.jpg
 
reference for location
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_georgia_pol89.jpg
 
Is this something that has been added or might be added?

[DuckofTindalos]

Don't worry, it's in.

[Jorm]

Hey Andrew,

If its not too painful , is it possible to get an idea of japanese refining capacity and syn. fuel production capacity ?.

I think some one asked about this ages ago, but alas i cant find the answer

is it possible for the retreating allies to destroy/damage resources / refineries etc ?


Also i note we have a few melbournites, we should try for a Witp drinks session again one day like we did years ago with raverdave and cobra

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Jorm

Hey Andrew,

If its not too painful , is it possible to get an idea of japanese refining capacity and syn. fuel production capacity ?.

Here are the values for the bases in Japan:

Code: Select all

 Base              Oil     Refineries
 Akita              32             40
 Asahikawa           5	
 Fukuoka            12             10
 Iwaki                             10
 Kurume             10	
 Muroran             5	
 Nagoya              5	
 Niigata            14             50
 Osaka/Kyoto                      200
 Sapporo             5	
 Shimonoseki        16            160
 Tokuyama            5              5
 Tokyo               5            200
 Wakayama                          50
 Yokohama/Yokosuka                150
 Yamagata           12             20
 

Each oil centre generates 10 oil points per day, so the total domestic oil production in Japan is 1260 points per day. Refineries can process 10 oil points per day per centre, generating 9 fuel and 1 supply point in the process.

Note that there is a very large excess of refining capacity in Japan.

is it possible for the retreating allies to destroy/damage resources / refineries etc ?

I don't think there have been any changes in this area since stock, so yes there should be a chance of damage by engineers.

Also i note we have a few melbournites, we should try for a Witp drinks session again one day like we did years ago with raverdave and cobra

Yes why not? Actually I haven't seen Cobra posting here for ages...

Andrew

[witpqs]

Nor have I. Is Cobra OK?