When?

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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wargameplayer
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RE: When?

Post by wargameplayer »


Man--I am not saying get this thing out ASAP. My concern is this looks just like EIA. A classic game that didn't have the resources put behind it to make it work. and it means no other publisher will try it if it fails.

and man--nowhere did I insult anybody. What I said was I said a year ago this project felt like it needed like a team of 2 or more at least coding it based on how I was reading those progress reports. what did I get back--oh that would slow me down because of these special circumstances. Do you not think I have heard that one before?

The best way to refute my point maybe is some of the beta testers to come out saying the game is in good shape and that our concerns are ill founded.

Something that would make me feel better is...
"Hey there are some bugs we found but the overall game play, balance, rule implementation and scope are incredible and the best WWII game I've seen".
Like I want to see something that is on par or better than paradox game.

My fear at this point is the game I loved as a kid is going to come out badly and no publisher will try to relauch it cuz it turned out bad commercially.

That's not about --lets make it come out soon. In fact--i'd rather it never come out by this publisher if its going to be bad.

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14


Funny how no one wants to answer you? The predicted dates bounce between the Origins convention and Christmas. The last 'official' prediciton was Christmas 2008, but someone with quasi-authority wrote recently 'around Christmas', which leads me to guess it will be Origins 2009 at the earliest.
C
I'd add that this is the kind of complaining that brought EiA to the players in a non finished looking state.
The EiA forums were full of that, all year long, for years. Only complaining people.
Let's keep on ignoring that and keep making the game advancing.

Froonp...my only complaint I had at that point was that no one was answering the guy...how you can extend that to the EiA debacle is kind of crazy. How ever long it takes this product to come out...thats what it takes...I'm not saying it should be rushed out at all! I would however prefer to see honest projections. I agree with flipperwasirish concerning the value of differing opinions, seeing possible bits of brilliance in them, and the fredom of speach required to get at a good product that we all want to see...I would think this obvious. "glad handers" mentioned by wargameplayer are rampant in here (probably pasternakski chief amoung them, and by the way I extend my middle finger at him)...and while Steve deserves a pat on the back and encouragement...I also see him wasting time on useless posts in this forum (ie, politics, fantasy release party, etc...)...why would the programmer bother with this useless crap???
C
wargameplayer
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RE: When?

Post by wargameplayer »

When I suggested adding more people a year or so ago, the issue of resistance was "hey it's a special project it will slow me down if I have to bring people in.

he didn't say --oh we don't have the money.

So you don't know what you are talking about buddy.

What you bring up is a totally different issue that may be true also tho. A lot of people love this particular war game, if Matrix or others wanted to bring in other investors to partner up on the project I bet they could raise money easy for it
IF IT WAS DONE RIGHT.
ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. Does Matrix have $100,000.00 to invest (That word means RISK, in this context) in WIF? No. Does ADG have $100,000.00 to invest? Probably no. Is there anyone else out there in this wide world of ours who is standing up and saying I have that kind of cash to invest/risk, let me pay? No. Although, I would self-servingly point out once again that I have offered (Stupidly, kidding myselfly) to pony up $100.00 to help.

So, since there is no MONEY to hire all this help you say he needs, all your girlish whinning is sorta like PISSING IN THE WIND, doncha think stud! [:D] Enough math, let's look at something even more costly and hard to come by; dedication, faith, belief, honor.

This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.
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RE: When?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

When I suggested adding more people a year or so ago, the issue of resistance was "hey it's a special project it will slow me down if I have to bring people in.

he didn't say --oh we don't have the money.

So you don't know what you are talking about buddy.

What you bring up is a totally different issue that may be true also tho. A lot of people love this particular war game, if Matrix or others wanted to bring in other investors to partner up on the project I bet they could raise money easy for it
IF IT WAS DONE RIGHT.
ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. Does Matrix have $100,000.00 to invest (That word means RISK, in this context) in WIF? No. Does ADG have $100,000.00 to invest? Probably no. Is there anyone else out there in this wide world of ours who is standing up and saying I have that kind of cash to invest/risk, let me pay? No. Although, I would self-servingly point out once again that I have offered (Stupidly, kidding myselfly) to pony up $100.00 to help.

So, since there is no MONEY to hire all this help you say he needs, all your girlish whinning is sorta like PISSING IN THE WIND, doncha think stud! [:D] Enough math, let's look at something even more costly and hard to come by; dedication, faith, belief, honor.

This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.
That's twice you have quoted me without showing the quote. I don't have the time to look it up. Do you?
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
wargameplayer
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RE: When?

Post by wargameplayer »

yep steve..see below.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
If it's been worked on for 5k hours and its been several years. and still 3k to go I'd guess its about 18 months away. Have you thought about outsourcing some of the more mundane coding to India? That way the game would come out a lot faster and probably cheaper. Heck I'd invest in some development dollars since it's such a great game and I've always wanted to see it in computer format.

Some of us work 60+ hours a week just like Steve. I strongly doubt write-ups are delaying production of the game. Those who have the spare time are donating. Throwing insults contributes nothing positive, and doesn't even cast the game in a good light. All prospective players of the game should have a chance to comment regardless of the decisions made. Being defensive on behalf of Steve and/or throwing insults is non-productive.

_____________________________

I cowrote a wargame in assembler with a very close friend in the mid-1980s. And obviously I have worked on numerous other programming projects involving a team of programmers. This project doesn't lend itself to that very well. Currently, I am rewriting existing code, turning it into a more structured design. That requires separating the variables and routines into different modules: standard Windows program application tasks, Player Interface, Game-in-Progress variables (date, turn, phase, impulse, subphase, phasing player, ...), Game Control (Sequence of Play and transitioning from one phase to the next), Simulation Control (updating the map and unit variables, etc.), Game Record Log (for replay), and so on.

Since I started with existing code that had these variables/functionality intertwined, it really is a one-person task to break them into separate code entities. If I had my best friend working alongside me everyday, then perhaps we could work out a division of labor where the overhead of communication did not wipe out the benefit of having 2 people work on the project. But he lives in Pennsylvania and has a full time job supporting his family (he needs that regular paycheck). My point here is that very close communications would be required and there would be a lot of time spent/lost simply telling each other what is being done. One reason the original code I received had things intertwined is that there is enormous interaction between elements of MWIF: the player, the operating system, and the simulation.

I absolutely have to have them separated to add any of the capabilities required in my contract with Matrix: Internet, PBEM, AI Opponent.

Over the last year and a half I have been able to make changes to support the new graphics for the map and units, and many other changes, but doing so interduced "hard to track down" bugs because of the program structure. The redesign I am working on now should alleviate those problems.


ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

When I suggested adding more people a year or so ago, the issue of resistance was "hey it's a special project it will slow me down if I have to bring people in.

he didn't say --oh we don't have the money.

So you don't know what you are talking about buddy.

What you bring up is a totally different issue that may be true also tho. A lot of people love this particular war game, if Matrix or others wanted to bring in other investors to partner up on the project I bet they could raise money easy for it
IF IT WAS DONE RIGHT.
ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. Does Matrix have $100,000.00 to invest (That word means RISK, in this context) in WIF? No. Does ADG have $100,000.00 to invest? Probably no. Is there anyone else out there in this wide world of ours who is standing up and saying I have that kind of cash to invest/risk, let me pay? No. Although, I would self-servingly point out once again that I have offered (Stupidly, kidding myselfly) to pony up $100.00 to help.

So, since there is no MONEY to hire all this help you say he needs, all your girlish whinning is sorta like PISSING IN THE WIND, doncha think stud! [:D] Enough math, let's look at something even more costly and hard to come by; dedication, faith, belief, honor.

This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.
That's twice you have quoted me without showing the quote. I don't have the time to look it up. Do you?
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wfzimmerman
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RE: When?

Post by wfzimmerman »

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer


The best way to refute my point maybe is some of the beta testers to come out saying the game is in good shape and that our concerns are ill founded.

Something that would make me feel better is...
"Hey there are some bugs we found but the overall game play, balance, rule implementation and scope are incredible and the best WWII game I've seen".
Like I want to see something that is on par or better than paradox game.


Hey, there are some bugs and things left to be done, but the overall game play, balance, rule implementation and scope are incredible and this will be the best WWII game ever.

I am familiar with Paradox games and this will be infinitely better than HOI.

/a beta tester
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wfzimmerman
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RE: When?

Post by wfzimmerman »

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. D

$100,000/year is a good rule of thumb for an FTE in the real world.
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wfzimmerman
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RE: When?

Post by wfzimmerman »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

August 1, 2008 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum


Personally, I think a very useful metric at this point would be a line graph showing the number of open items on your "to do" list by month. Plot a knee curve out to where it asymptotes, and that's the release date.
macgregor
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RE: When?

Post by macgregor »

ORIGINAL: jjax
AI (and therefore solo play) and PBEM are both reasonable requests. This is NOT WiF(if you want that, rip out the board game), its MWiF. Matrix games want this to be commercial success (doesn’t the dev deserve that after the years he put into this game) and i doubt it can be with out a decent AI opponent or pbem. Mind you, no one is expecting deep blue.

But this discussion is pointless. The Dev has already said that Matrix games have demanded an AI opponent. And on this issue, I can't blame Matrix.

I'm sure when i see what's been done, I'll understand why it had to be done. I was just being selfish I guess. A purist. The wait is close to being over, so indeed the point is moot.
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Taxman66
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RE: When?

Post by Taxman66 »

The reality of situation is what it is, and is extremely unlikely to change.  Arguing over what would have been 'better' is pointless, and so is getting upset about it.
 
Time for some WifZen: 
The game will be done when it is done.  Those that want to play the game will do so at that time.  Those of us that are fans of the game and are mature about the situation will wait patiently and are supportive and appreciative of Matrix and Shannon's efforts to bring it to the RAM.
 
---
Taxman - Whoose real name is somewhat prominent in the DoD3 credits and whom had spent an ungodly number of hours and multiple real years working on it before Harry ever did.
"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft
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SamuraiProgrmmr
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RE: When?

Post by SamuraiProgrmmr »

ORIGINAL: HansHafen
This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.

RIGHT ON!

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?
panzers
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RE: When?

Post by panzers »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

I am willing to pre purchase if financial concerns are going to substantially impact the game in a negative manner. I don't know what the suggested price is, but I imagine its $100 or more.

Keep up the great work. This is my favorite game.

This game definately needs a release party at the end so everyone can meet each other and have a drink.
Thanks, but about that party, ...

Me - Honolulu
Patrice - Marseilles
Rob Armstrong - Australia
David Heath - Colorado
Erik Rutkins - Vermont
Dan Hatchen - Saskatchewan
Lars & Terje - Norway
Michael Andersen - Denmark
Andy - Idaho
Jesper - Belgium?
Wosung - Germany
... I apologize to dozens of others I did not mention here.
For those of you who seem to think that this game is not being handled the right way, do me a favor: do some homework and check out the information about each of these individuals. If you should be so kind to take that time and look them up and their credentials for this game, you will know that all this nonsense is nothing but a waste of our time. If you should choose not to do that, then please, do us all a favor and not post on this thread because the people who have been follwing this thread know exactly what I am talking about.
Now. if you do choose to take that time to do that, then you can also take the time to follow all the monthly reports since before EiA came out. You will then know that EiA is not WiF. Matrix is a company that just takes the time to please the wargammer in all of us. To even put paradox or Strategy First or any other company for that matter in the same breath as Matrix games is ludicrous. I am in no way hating on paradox or Strategy first, but if you are a true and hardcore wargammer, then you will know that these other companies would never even remotely consider taking on a project such as WiF. If for nothing else, give Matrix credit for that. The whining and bitching needs to stop and the facts need to be read. I am not saying that this is going to be a lock, stock, and barrel success, but, in all my life of looking and following a project for a wargame, there is nothing that comes even remotely close to the efforts put out by these individuels. Even though EiA is part of ADG, they did not have the fortunes, nor the resourses that WiF has had. Again I say: please do us all a favor and take the time to look at the credentials of the people and put this to rest and move on.
macgregor
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RE: When?

Post by macgregor »

My point is that harsh criticism like we see from actually very few people, is symptomatic of the long wait. If properly digested, it's simply encouragement to finish. If there is stress being experienced by the development team, it's from the workload itself. Progress is more important than meeting deadlines, but opposition to those who are impatient can only result in uberpatience, which is not healthy either.
Plainian
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RE: When?

Post by Plainian »

ORIGINAL: macgregor
uberpatience, which is not healthy either.

Not quite sure what 'uberpatience' is but if anyone is feeling stress then feel free to post in the O/T WW2 Quiz folder.

371 posts in just over a month would suggest that its a good way to let off steam.....I guess I better put one of those [;)] things in here so that people can see I'm joking. [:D]
Cheesehead
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RE: When?

Post by Cheesehead »

First off I want to express my support and confidence in Steve's abilities and dedication to making MWiF happen. I was a beta tester in the beginning before time constraints knocked me out of the job, but I saw enough to know that this game will be great and well worth the wait. You married guys better be building up brownie points with the wives because you won't be available much after release. Get those theater visits, ice capades, and quiet walks along the beach taken care of now.

For those of you finding your patience tested, I welcome you to get your WiF fix using the Vassal or Cyberboard game engines. You can play PBEM or online and it works fabulous as long as you know the rules. This is another reason why releasing this game without AI would be totally meaningless. Many of us are already playing WiF on our computers without an AI using the aforementioned game engines.

If you want to find opponents check out Pete's CB WiF forum at:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/PetesCBWiFgame/

Thanks again, Steve, for your tremendous efforts.

Cheers

John






You can't fight in here...this is the war room!
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Sgt.Fury25
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RE: When?

Post by Sgt.Fury25 »

This game looks like a winner!Hope to see it out soon,but also as a playable one.Take your time,but im growing older,so hurry up![:D]
saintjames
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RE: When?

Post by saintjames »

Thanks Steve for all the hard work. You are an inspiration with you dedication and hard work. Keep smiling and have fun.
Manic Inertia
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RE: When?

Post by Manic Inertia »

Steve -

I haven't contributed to this forum regularly for a long time now, partly because I'm frustrated that my busy schedule prevents me from volunteering what would be my humble but loving efforts at the counter write-ups, which I'd love to do, if I could spare the time and effort such a fantastic idea richly deserves.

I'm not computer savvy, but I'm a lifelong obsessed WiF addict, as I firmly contend that this is the greatest board game ever devised (beyond even chess dammit!), so I'm somewhat saddened by the pessimistic and thoroughly unhelpful remarks left by some other forum members regarding your efforts.

I've had few heroes in my life, but I number amongst them technocrats like Nikita Tesla and Albert Einstein, Information Age messiahs like Bill Gates, as well as inspirational authors like Orwell and Tolkien. You, Steve, are my new hero: a solitary figure wrestling with seemingly insurmountable odds, courting bankrupcy whilst on fire with a wonderful idea; democratic and focused, humble in both adversity and success, undeterred from 'The Great Work' (as I see it) by philistines, pessimistists and attention-seekers. We all know you won't be dramatically remunerated by Matrix Games, but to you goes to satisfaction, the glory, of making the dreams of many, many people come alive. I've been playing WiF here in Melbourne Australia with my freinds for many years, and I can promise you, your name is Legend in my town.

To paraphrase Nick Cave; I don't believe in an interventionist god, but if I did, I would kneel down and ask him, not to get in your way, dude..
Manic Inertia
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RE: When?

Post by Manic Inertia »

Dammit, gimme a counter to edit - I wanna write one up!
Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: When?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Dammit, gimme a counter to edit - I wanna write one up!
How about a wet counter?[:)] Andy (Sabre21) could use help with the naval units. Send him a PM to get started.
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
stewart_king
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RE: When?

Post by stewart_king »

I'm on my second 1939 scenario play-through with Wendell Albright using VASSAL. (He is, naturally, kicking my butt. Germans in the Caucasus in 1941.) The VASSAL system is a real winner; we've experienced very few technical problems bar a rather long load-up of a full seven-map scenario on my elderly computer.

Here's a link to the VASSAL site: <http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php>.

Gotta have the AI in MWIF. No matter how long it takes.
Stewart R. King
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