The World at War ELO Tournament

[oldAHgamer]

Looking for a new ELO game, happy to play either side, 1939 start, usual rules.

[KlasE]

I have set up a game, me as axis.
Password: 2021

Can usually do 1-2 turns per day.

No diplo on majors
No diplo on Bulgaria
No DoW against USSR before 1941.

[oldAHgamer]

sounds good - I'll start the game tomorrow - good luck!

[DmitryN]

Passuna (allies) lost to DmitryN (axis) (He just did not appeared for 2 month being in absolutely loosing position March 1942. Start of the game was reported here, so I just inform).

[EarlyDoors]

Game Started: SCOldGamer (Axis) v Earlydoors (Allied)

[KlasE]

New ELO game started.

KlasE (Axis) vs OldAHgamer (Allies)

[DmitryN]

Gillesthib (Axis) lost to DmitryN (allied). Axis resigned aug 1941, France is still in game, soviet troops near Berlin

[EarlyDoors]

ELO Rankings November update http://scwaw-rankings.s3-website.eu-wes ... onaws.com/

Overall
=======
Total Axis 111
Total Allies 116

Players of the Month
--------------------
DmitryN 4 wins out of 5
KlasE 3 out of 3

[Taifun]

[/quote]

Overall
=======
Total Axis 111
Total Allies 116

Thanks EarlyDoors!
After playing the new version 12.0 I get the impression that the USSR is stronger (much more historically accurate and realistic) and the Axis task much harder. I wouldn't be surprised to see the total Allies count go up fast. No Axis medium level player will win over a veteran defending with the Allies and will have a hard time against a similarly skilled Allied opponent: time will tell

[redrum68]

ORIGINAL: redrum68
New ELO game started:

Taifun (Axis) vs redrum68 (Allies)

Taifun (Axis) defeats redrum68 (Allies) in June 1942. GG and very well played by Taifun.

ORIGINAL: Taifun
Thanks EarlyDoors!
After playing the new version 12.0 I get the impression that the USSR is stronger (much more historically accurate and realistic) and the Axis task much harder. I wouldn't be surprised to see the total Allies count go up fast. No Axis medium level player will win over a veteran defending with the Allies and will have a hard time against a similarly skilled Allied opponent: time will tell

This is probably true at lower/intermediate levels but not sure I agree against good Axis players though hopefully better Allied players prove me wrong

I decided to concede as it became clear at least Stalingrad, Voronezh, Saratov, and the Caucasus will fall by the end of 1942 with pretty much all of the Axis panzers, paratroopers, and bombers concentrated in the south. This will pretty much cripple the USSR economy and then Moscow, Kuybyshev, and Perm will fall in 1943. Ultimately, I don't really see how the Allies can win against a top Axis player without close to perfect play and a lot of luck.

I'll highlight a few of the mistakes I made as well as some of the interesting events:
- German 1939 invasion of France/Belgium and Italy joining very early made it very costly for the Allies to hold out til Summer even with significant UK investment
- Germany chose not to invade the Netherlands or Denmark to minimize USA/USSR mobilization (USA stayed below 40% for a very long time preventing the convoy route to UK)
- Axis chose to invest very little in Africa which led to the Allies capturing all of north and east Africa very quickly but allowed them to focus all their key forces on the USSR
- This led to my first major mistake which was choosing to reinforce Yugoslavia once they went to war with Germany and I landed something like 15-20 units. While Yugoslavia quickly surrendered to Germany, I was able to hold out along the coast for about a year and eventually capture Albania but at an incredibly high cost where it only distracted around a handful of Axis units and 1 panzer. I didn't know what else to do with all the Allied units sitting in Africa but this was probably not the best idea as supply was terrible and it was difficult to control the seas around it against all the Axis airforces (maritime bombers are insanely strong early game especially in the Med).
- Barbarossa was delayed until summer 1941 due to some combination of France holding out for a while and the Yugoslavia invasion but not really enough to make a difference
- Japan DoW on USSR same turn as Germany and used the strategic bomber tactics that were highlighted in another thread to massively delay the Soviet Far East reinforcements (best units the USSR has in 1941) from operating to the Eastern Front (this is a brutally effective tactic that in any future games will house rule that Japan can't DoW on USSR until its at war with USA)
- Second major mistake was trying to defend aggressively with the USSR losing more units than necessary in the opening turns. While this did especially in the North and Center slow the Axis down (I still comfortably held Pskov and Smolensk in 1942) it made little difference and lost more units than I could afford. I also needed to build more forts in the south and less around Smolensk/Moscow.
- At the end of 1941, things looked ok for the USSR with them holding Riga to Smolensk to Rostov and the Axis splitting their panzers with a few in the north/center and the rest in the south.
- The third major mistake was in spring 1942 when the Axis decided to concentrate all their panzers/bombers in the south and the panzerball is essentially unstoppable crushing any units anywhere near them and around 3000 MP USSR losses over 2 consecutive turns leaving most of the south wide open. I should have probably backed up even further than I did to try to minimize losses and not counter attacked as much (did destroy 2 panzers but wasn't worth it). In the end, not sure this would have mattered much as you can only run for so long before you are giving up too much income to be competitive.
- China held fairly well and still controlled Kunming (hump airlift) and Chungking though this is mostly due to Japan deciding to avoid the USA mobilization hit by limiting their advances. China got IW 2 very late in Spring 1942 causing a lot of extra losses. Japan instead invested a lot into its air and naval capacity and executed a incredible opening DoW against the USA by crushing Pearl Harbor and having pretty much all the south Pacific and southeast Asia nations surrender in early 1942 (including Burma, Malaya, DEI, Philippines, etc). This allowed them to then dominate the Indian Ocean and stop the USA aid to USSR through Persia. The USA/UK moved a good portion of their airforces to combat this but 2 turns in a row of sandstorms in NW India left them incapable of doing anything and being sitting ducks.
- Axis naval gameplay was incredibly efficient and they had lost very few ships so far though hadn't caused very many convoy losses either. Eventually combined UK/USA navies should have been able to contain them but it would take some time especially in the Indian Ocean as its so far away.

A few recommended balance changes (these should have little to no impact on low/intermediate level games):
1. House rule: Japan can't DoW on USSR til its at war with USA
2. Need to shift more of the USSR income to the north/center away from south so Axis can't just go all south (changes to add the USA aid through Persia make this even worse)
3. Soviet Winter should be expanded a bit so its harder for them to avoid in Baltics and Ukraine
4. Should be more penalties for Axis DoW on Vichy France after USA has joined (something like Algiers/Tunisia join Allies and maybe more starting units for Vichy France around Vichy)
5. Should adjust Japan advancing in China causing USA mobilization to include some cities in the south otherwise its too easy for them to avoid
6. Maritime Bombers cost should be increased from 150 to 200-250 MPP as they are really strong for a cheap price especially early game when fighter and AA levels are low
7. Vladivostok should be a primary supply so that it isn't so easy to cut its supply to level 5
8. Should be more deterrents to Germany invading Belgium/France in 1939 like a bit stronger starting forces for France but less income as against a good player they are already crippled by the time they get their 2nd HQ and tank unit
9. USA to UK convoy mobilization should be lower from 40% to 35% so it isn't as easily delayed
10. Weather sucks and getting sandstorms which I think are 10-15% chance 2 turns in a row is just brutal (I doubt anything really changes about weather at this point but it definitely leads to a lot of frustration in many close games)

I'm sure Taifun can add his thoughts and highlight more of my mistakes

[EarlyDoors]

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

Game Started: SCOldGamer (Axis) v Earlydoors (Allied)

Game ended with Axis resignation in October 1940
France very bloodied, but un-bowed

[DmitryN]

SCOld Gamer (Axis) lost to Dmitry N (allies)
Axis resigned September 1940 with France still in game and all Italian navy lost (both with minimal UK loses)

[Marcinos1985]

Marcinos1985(Axis) vs SCOLDGAMER (Allies) game started few days ago.

[Marcinos1985]

@redrum
Lots of interesting insight, thank you. There are a lot of interesting points, but I believe recent patches weren't tested enough to jump on the gun. I'd say only the case with JAP STR bombers requires serious attention and should be ruled out by gentlemen's agreement. Rest may be put under discussion, balance threads are always great to participate in.
Still, I'd be cautious with overanalyzing one game. You faced a top player who played a heavy optimized cookie cutter, this requires a play with little mistakes, and you yourself mentioned 2 major ones. What is more, you didn't write about your USSR and US choices, and these are almost always game decisive. In fact, getting RUS on the brink in late 1942 is probably only chance for Axis to win in this game, if they are behind schedule then USA will drop a hammer in 1943.
I am curious what Taifun thinks, because several posts earlier he mentioned Allies may have an advantage now and I think he may be right.

[redrum68]

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985
@redrum
Lots of interesting insight, thank you. There are a lot of interesting points, but I believe recent patches weren't tested enough to jump on the gun. I'd say only the case with JAP STR bombers requires serious attention and should be ruled out by gentlemen's agreement. Rest may be put under discussion, balance threads are always great to participate in.
Still, I'd be cautious with overanalyzing one game. You faced a top player who played a heavy optimized cookie cutter, this requires a play with little mistakes, and you yourself mentioned 2 major ones. What is more, you didn't write about your USSR and US choices, and these are almost always game decisive. In fact, getting RUS on the brink in late 1942 is probably only chance for Axis to win in this game, if they are behind schedule then USA will drop a hammer in 1943.
I am curious what Taifun thinks, because several posts earlier he mentioned Allies may have an advantage now and I think he may be right.

Generally agree that any changes should be based on a number of games and others thoughts just laying out my experience for others to compare to. Though a few of the recommendations are IMO just closing loop holes (soviet winter, japan advance causing USA mobilization, etc).

Not much more to say about USSR beyond I probably defended a bit too aggressively. I went with a pretty standard approach focusing on infantry > AA > AT > tanks and put most of my units in the south (probably should have put even more). Only new purchases were garrisons, AA, and AT as USSR was pretty poor due to Taifun managing mobilization very well. The Japan strategic bomber gambit made any dnepr defense very short lived as really needed those 5 strong units there. I think I got IW2 late 1941 or early 1942 which I think is a bit later than average and upgraded all my infantry during the winter. With IW2 and some AT/tanks I was able to defend Rostov area for a few turns in spring 1942 against 4-5 panzers just conceding a few hexes each turn but once he operated all his panzers from the north/center then it was too much to do anything about.

USA was also really poor due to Taifun managing mobilization very well. I was used to having more MPP to spend on building units but had purchased very few units before the war started. My plan was to first focus on navy/air to contain Japan and ensure Lend Lease and Persia aid would stay open as much as possible (Vlad fell very quickly and I don't think there is really anyway currently to defend it especially if Japan uses strat bombers). Then I was planning to invade either France, Spain, or Italy probably in early 1943 as that is when I'd probably have enough units to make a significant landing. Portugal had joined the Allies due to a lucky roll on the Portugal Timor event (I think its 15%) so I was leaning towards invading Spain through Portugal but depended on where I felt this defenses were the weakest.

If there are other things you are interested in knowing just let me know. I'm still waiting for a top level AAR where Allies actually win

[Taifun]

After a short pause I restarted playing WAW last August 2021. I played 5 games: the first 3 as Allies (2 losses) and the last 2 as Axis (2 victories). So the Axis won 4 out of 5 games. This last game against redrum68 has been a very challenging game. He is a first class opponent and will soon climb to the top of the ELO ranking without a doubt. He has a very detailed knowledge of the scripts, plays very meticulously, studying every little detail and makes excellent use of the terrain in defensive positions… I am exhausted and this will be my last game for many months as my wife has threatened to destroy my computer… [:(]

I am thinking of making a short AAR of our last game. I have great pics...

A very difficult French campaign. After the French surrendered September 1940 the British refused to leave the continent and General Montgomery stubbornly defended Brest and St Malo until May 1941. The Germans suffered a significant number of losses and it was soon clear that no troops could be spared for Libya and an African adventure. I could not buy a single artillery unit or bomber, just managing to buy and replenish 7 panzerkorps (1 in Yugoslavia until game end).

Yugoslavia was attacked April 1941 but no less than 12 Allied units landed via Split and Dubovnik with 2 HQs, tanks and AT units.

Barbarossa had to be delayed until August 1st 1941. Initially the Japanese were supposed to attack simultaneously the West coast of the USA but progress in China was very slow due to a superb defense by redrum68. The USA attack plan was soon discarded as no troops could be spared for the expedition in time.

With only 2 turns of good weather the progress in the North and Central parts of the Russian front was limited. Only Siauliai near Riga and Minsk were captured.

In the south I noticed that there were no fortifications, only 1 Soviet engineer seems to be available, and had fortified the Smolensk and Moscow regions. Thanks to the Japanese bombers attacking from Siberia, no main USSR reinforcements were available, and we crossed the Dnepr in force across Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk reaching Kharkov as the year ended.

I really thought that I could not win this game. When the USA entered the war in January 1942 the USSR was receiving +800 MMPs per turn and Germany only 600 MPPs. In Yugoslavia the Allies still had around 10 units.

Germany called Japan for help in 1942. The new 12.0 changes had a great effect in the German supply as our troops advanced in the USSR. All cities and towns took many turns to arrive to level 5-6 supply. Japan captured all mayor Asiatic/Pacific objectives in 2 turns and by spring 1942 controlled the Bay of Bengal, the Arabian Sea and the Gulf of Aden.

Making no progress in the North and Central part of the Russian front, all panzerkorps (6) were sent to the south in May. Rostov fell in June, Krasnodar in July. Japan blocked the Persian Gulf and the US MMPs stopped arriving via Persia.

I fell confident that Stalingrad and Baku could be captured before the years end… but the issue was still very much in doubt. The Allies had more units than the Axis (51% vs 49%, only 70 German units vs 50+ Russians) in July 1942 and the German economy was weak with around 680 MPPs only per turn. The Japanese were stretched to the limit from Gulf of Aden, Burma, China and the Pacific with only 60 land units. The Capital Chunking remained to be captured… A great game and a great opponent !

[Taifun]

As I said before, in this new versions 12.0-13.0, I think that only a skilled Axis player will defeat the Allied forces. WAW is the best WWII game!

[EarlyDoors]

ORIGINAL: Taifun

After a short pause I restarted playing WAW last August 2021. I played 5 games: the first 3 as Allies (2 losses) and the last 2 as Axis (2 victories). So the Axis won 4 out of 5 games. This last game against redrum68 has been a very challenging game. He is a first class opponent and will soon climb to the top of the ELO ranking without a doubt. He has a very detailed knowledge of the scripts, plays very meticulously, studying every little detail and makes excellent use of the terrain in defensive positions… I am exhausted and this will be my last game for many months as my wife has threatened to destroy my computer… [:(]

turn-based war is hell, my friend

[petedalby]

I'm sure Taifun can add his thoughts and highlight more of my mistakes

Having read Taifun's brief AAR it seems you played an excellent game - well done. The only mistake I think you may have made was in conceding. All the time Russia is in the game I think the Allies have a chance. It's a long game and the Allies just get stronger. Allied invasions of France & Italy will boost USSR morale and help them stay in the game longer.

[redrum68]

ORIGINAL: petedalby
Having read Taifun's brief AAR it seems you played an excellent game - well done. The only mistake I think you may have made was in conceding. All the time Russia is in the game I think the Allies have a chance. It's a long game and the Allies just get stronger. Allied invasions of France & Italy will boost USSR morale and help them stay in the game longer.

I think the bigger issue for the USSR is income/capitals less so morale. Losing Caucasus would be something like 250-300 MPP loss given the oil wells, cities, and Persia aid. This would put USSR income down to something like 400-500 while Germany would gain quite a bit from the oil wells and be up around 800-900. While I think I could have a decent Allied invasion in 1943 it would probably grind to a stalemate and only distract a few panzers or distract more and get pushed back into the ocean. As long as Germany kept the majority of its panzers in the USSR then they can capture all 3 USSR capitals in 1943. The timing in the USSR is actually very close to Taifun's most recent AAR against Dimitry. Ultimately I think the game is decided in the Caucasus in 1942 right now, whoever holds that ultimately wins barring some pretty crazy results elsewhere.