Fabertong vs Speedy: The view from the Pole

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, it's not like REALITY had anything to do with it...[8|]

Ahhh....but in REALITY....could the US Fleet have sailed up to the HIs in spring 1944.....and camped there for a week......without getting scatch......I wonder.......

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, it's not like REALITY had anything to do with it...[8|]

[:D] [:D]

The A-to-A model in the standard game favors the Japanese early in the game, and the Allies later with too much in the way of lopsided results. The game designers tried to get it right, but missed the mark, i think...[:D]

Anyway, i think it damages the game - for the first 1 year or so, it isn't really much fun (as a game) to play the Allies, and for the last year or so, not much fun for the Japanese player - in part historical fact, but in part bizarre combat results intensifying the pain. The game allows too much forces to be used cohesively, and the game combat engine just isn't geared to allow this.

Just my opinion... it has caused me to give up on standard WITP though.

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah, it's not like REALITY had anything to do with it...[8|]

[:D] [:D]

The A-to-A model in the standard game favors the Japanese early in the game, and the Allies later with too much in the way of lopsided results. The game designers tried to get it right, but missed the mark, i think...[:D]

Anyway, i think it damages the game - for the first 1 year or so, it isn't really much fun (as a game) to play the Allies, and for the last year or so, not much fun for the Japanese player - in part historical fact, but in part bizarre combat results intensifying the pain. The game allows too much forces to be used cohesively, and the game combat engine just isn't geared to allow this.

Just my opinion... it has caused me to give up on standard WITP though.

I agree....Robert.......this, I feel will be my last stock game of WITP........I can bear the poor A2A model and was happy to play on with the results.....I can enjoy playing early allies...or late japan....but.....I feel the problems really arise when your opponent launches operations that take advantage of the poor A2A model.......This I would like to point out is in no way an attack on Steven who is a fine and honourable opponent.......I don't think he realised how borked the system was when planning this op...........

[rtrapasso]

Well, i think once the model encounters "ahistorical" numbers of aircraft, it really starts to have problems.

Since a majority of the fights IRL were between relatively small numbers of aircraft (usually less than 2 dozen per side*), the model quickly breaks down.

*Even in large battles, planes tended to arrive and get engaged piecemeal through most of the war from what i've read.

[fabertong]

I suppose they (the designers) had trouble modelling the refueling and rearming of CAP aircraft......which would mean if I launch 7-8 missions against his carriers.....I shouldn't really expect 200 hellcats to intercept every mission.....and have enough ammo to shoot down 750 planes in one turn........at Midway(IIRC) one of the reasons the Jap. carriers got caught was their CAP was still at low altitude after destroying earlier attacks.....so they couldn't intercept the later ones......something I also understand would be difficult to model........but it does leave us with a bit of a gaming problem........................

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Miller

I think reality at that stage of the war would be 70-80% losses and at least a few a/c getting through to drop ordinance, as oppossed to 99% losses and nothing being dropped.

Remind me, when was the Turkey Shoot again?[8|]

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Miller

I think reality at that stage of the war would be 70-80% losses and at least a few a/c getting through to drop ordinance, as oppossed to 99% losses and nothing being dropped.

Remind me, when was the Turkey Shoot again?[8|]

It's a well made point T........The Turkey shoot was in June of '44 IIRC........but I think the Jap. Planes were all carrier based........and nowhere in the region of 2,000 aircraft were launched.......

[witpqs]

There was lots of LBA also. I forget the number, but there were at least, say, 800, maybe a good deal more.

[Miller]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Miller

I think reality at that stage of the war would be 70-80% losses and at least a few a/c getting through to drop ordinance, as oppossed to 99% losses and nothing being dropped.

Remind me, when was the Turkey Shoot again?[8|]

I don't have the figures to hand but going off memory of the 350 or so a/c launched by the IJN about 300 were destroyed. As to the number who got to launch their ordinance I have no idea but I would think at least a dozen or so bombs/torps had to be avoided and at least one CV was hit by a bomb (Wasp?) Disasterous losses yes, but hardly the 100% slaughter we see on the poor penguins air groups...

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Miller

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Miller

I think reality at that stage of the war would be 70-80% losses and at least a few a/c getting through to drop ordinance, as oppossed to 99% losses and nothing being dropped.

Remind me, when was the Turkey Shoot again?[8|]

I don't have the figures to hand but going off memory of the 350 or so a/c launched by the IJN about 300 were destroyed. As to the number who got to launch their ordinance I have no idea but I would think at least a dozen or so bombs/torps had to be avoided and at least one CV was hit by a bomb (Wasp?) Disasterous losses yes, but hardly the 100% slaughter we see on the poor penguins air groups...

The only damage inflicted on TF 58 during the Turkey Shoot was a single bomb hit on the South Dakota. That's it.

In statistical terms, that's called an outlier, and can be ignored. In effect, no attacks took place, because the Japanese aircraft formation were so severely disrupted. I maintain that what we're seeing here is merely a scaled-up Turkey Shoot...

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Miller

ORIGINAL: Terminus




Remind me, when was the Turkey Shoot again?[8|]

I don't have the figures to hand but going off memory of the 350 or so a/c launched by the IJN about 300 were destroyed. As to the number who got to launch their ordinance I have no idea but I would think at least a dozen or so bombs/torps had to be avoided and at least one CV was hit by a bomb (Wasp?) Disasterous losses yes, but hardly the 100% slaughter we see on the poor penguins air groups...

The only damage inflicted on TF 58 during the Turkey Shoot was a single bomb hit on the South Dakota. That's it.

In statistical terms, that's called an outlier, and can be ignored. In effect, no attacks took place, because the Japanese aircraft formation were so severely disrupted. I maintain that what we're seeing here is merely a scaled-up Turkey Shoot...

Not sure about your conclusions there... Marianas Turkey Shoot (MTS) had some 13 Allied carriers facing about 600 enemy aircraft. It looks like Speedy had around 20 carriers (50% increase) facing 2000 aircraft (300+% increase). Also, the Japanese aircraft in MTS were in outlying bases, and the ones here were in the home islands and thus would have had much more support.

i am not sure about the relative training of the forces - in MTS the LBA (about 1/3 of the force) wasn't particularly well trained, iirc.

Besides the 1 SoDaK hit, some US carriers were damaged by near misses. You can say the one hit was an outlier, but then, maybe it isn't.

Also, this also ignores the fact that Speedy's attack was decimated by faber's uber-CAP. The uber-CAP cuts both ways once air battles start getting very large.

[Raverdave]

I tend to agree with T

[rtrapasso]

Well, perhaps... but i doubt it.

i do think that the Japanese force would have been roughly handled, but not as roughly as shown here. Comparing relative forces in the MTS vs. this battle the number of attacking Japanese aircraft was about 46 per carrier, but in this battle it was about 100 per carrier.

Also, this continues to ignore the plight of the USN attack which was mangled without results.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i do think that the Japanese force would have been roughly handled, but not as roughly as shown here.

Also, this continues to ignore the plight of the USN attack which was mangled without results.

I agree on both counts. I did not experience UV with (or without) ammo limits for fighters but I think the absence of ammo limits in WITP must be making a huge difference (to the detriment of realism). maybe other things are too, but the code formulas are secret so we are left ot guess.

[1275psi]

Im playing a game- max 4Cv/CVL per hex, max 40% Cap, (no limit LRCAPing other TFs -you have to guess which one) - and its a LOT more enjoyable -for both sides for all of the war so far.

have to wait to see how it goes later on though.

[fabertong]

Well folks........Steven, being the gent he is has offered to start a new game....playing Nik mod to get over the A2A problem........this offer is enough to stop this penguin feeling sorry for himself.......and the fight has returned......I will see this game out.....it is the least Speedy deserves after the amount of time and effort...and it must be said fun....that the last 2 or so years have given us........

So I'll stop with the moaning .........and say.......come on Speedy.....Take Tokyo if you can......



Well of course he can......normal service to be resumed......

[VSWG]

Fabertong, you're a brave penguin... Kudos!

Good luck.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

Im playing a game- max 4Cv/CVL per hex, max 40% Cap, (no limit LRCAPing other TFs -you have to guess which one) - and its a LOT more enjoyable -for both sides for all of the war so far.

have to wait to see how it goes later on though.

i believe there is a 40% max CAP rule currently in place in this game, though not the 4 CV/CVLs per hex. At least for the Allies (and i think also for the IJN) it hasn't made a lot of difference.

i am not sure if the Ubercap could be more effective if it were 90% CAP, but perhaps... [X(] [:'(]

[fabertong]

April.......well...April 1944.....I've lost track of the exact date over the last few 'involving turns'.........

Now......how to hurt Speedy........

I've decided to pull out of Truk....and all of PNG....everything I can salvage moves back to the HIs .....because Steven could easily go for the throat.....and who could blame him........

No more HI forces will leave the HIs...as i build what defences I can........

The Combined fleet will move to Sasebo....the new home of most of my fleet units........

I would withdraw from Einwetok....if Speedy would let me....but my little sneaky 1-2 AKs ...are now being picked off as he has spotted the tactic.......

Burma is going to be a nightmare.....and if I could find a good line of defence beyond the Irrawadi...I would take it........

The 8th Tank Reg........moving to support Maccasar.....has been mostly lost at sea...........

So the noose tightens.........

[fabertong]

April 12-13th 1944........

The after shocks from Speedy's HI raid continue...as another 10 ships sink in port........all my carrier airgroups are down to 40 exp.....from the 70+ exp that flew against his Carriers.....


but the real trouble is Burma..........another 8 Chinese units have been spotted advancing on Mandalay from Mytk.......this along with the 6 units moving from Lashio....means he will be able to force the issue...

Pagan is being bombed day and night...and is also falling behind the allies...and may also be pushed soon......

The Imp.G Div.is on the way ...but may be too late........and when the cracks give way...I have no clear Idea where to draw the next line........

Einwetok heavily Bombed......will now be bypassed by Speedy...

Will he go for the Marianas ...or right for the HIs............if it's the Marianas....my carriers will not oppose.......