8MP Team Game - The Axis team

[Crackaces]

The Soviets on turn 49 conduct a counteroffensive in the mud. The picture below shows the push back on the Oka. My intent at this point is to do the "Macarena." Get the armor in reserve and infantry in contact with Soviet forces. Seems an easy task except it is mud, we are stacked three deep in many places, and not all units have full MP's for moving in and out of ZOC's. So a coordinated movement is needed to prevent chaos.

[Crackaces]

In the very south sector shared with AGS, the Soviets make a push. This action will be key as OKH begins to see that the AGC command will need to control the battlespace in the 103RHG area.

[Telemecus]

Turn 48 20-May-1942 Air

Our opponents described the air war as bloody this turn - but there was a lot to do.

The Air War has heated up as the Red Air Force has returned to the map in strength.

During their turn Soviet recon north of the marshes continued to show heavy losses. But south of the marshes where flak is less dense we see a new innovation - fighter escorts for their recon and their losses are still significant but noticeably lower. They continue to bomb our recon bases and suffer heavy losses in ground bombing. But one first time success they actually managed to bomb some of our fighters on the ground as they damage some aircraft at an Italian airbase. Maybe swapping all the 1941 Italian airgroups to biplanes before they left and keeping the Saettas in the pool was a good idea after all.

We continue to inflict some very heavy and unintercepted interdiction on Soviet ground units



By our turn we see the Soviets still deployed in clusters far from the front. Our recon finds their fighter bases and establish they have their fighter air group maximum ranges set on only 1 or 2 hexes away. Again these areas of interception are indicated on the map by red hexagons. They are protecting themselves and Gorky but not much else. So at least during our turn the Red Air Force will have little say in the ground war.

However it seems our opponents have not accounted for our advancing ground forces to bring their airbases into escort range for our air forces. This turn in particular entailed a very detailed and planned co-operation with our Centre command as one of their objectives this turn was to get a suitable staging base location at their front to bring Gorky into our fighter range. If the Soviets had thought they had left their airbases out of range of our escorts they are in for a rude awakening.

Our first attacks go in to the airbases nearest to us and near to Saransk. Our first wave attack finds heavy losses of bombers - 40 in all. But in subsequent raids Soviet fighter resistance collapses - and we soon find their fighters no longer wanting to fly and fight again. So our bombers finish the area off without fighter escorts.

Next come the airbases around Gorky. Again the first raid encounters heavy losses, 43 bombers are lost on our first raid. But subsequent attacks again find the fighters becoming largely ineffective. Although in this case we do not have the mass of bombers still to get them to where they will no longer fly. However it does see us comfortably increment the damage on the Gorky T-70 factory again. It has still not expanded from its capacity of 17 for several turns now, and with damage at 47% and Gorky now in fighter range the writing must surely be on the wall for that factory.

The cluster of airbases west of Saratov are also in range - but for this time we do not have a sufficient weight of bombers left and so they have to be left for fighter sweeps.



Although our bomber losses are very heavy this turn, relative to our substantial pool of bombers now as well as their large production numbers this is easily sustainable perhaps even until the end of the game now. From our tracking of Soviet interceptor numbers we know they do not have the pools to sustain this for long at all. In addition their replacements now in v1.11.03 will generally be lower morale types. So in relative terms this turn was a win for us. The Soviets are still losing very large numbers of their reconnaisance aircraft.

However there was some frustration this turn in not being able to press home the attack. The reappearance of the Red Air Force had caught the Luftwaffe bomber fleet in a period of transtion. Almost all level bomber groups are now pre-1942 Heinkels. Not only are these our best pre-1942 bombers, but by leaving none in the pool we have guaranteed they will be used as bombers and not converted to Hungarian recon. But having none in the pool also means no replacements left in the pool at the end of our turn. We are leaving very few or even one bomber group to autoswap each turn so that we know when they do, all the bombers returned to the pool will be absorbed by our other bomber airgroups and not left in the pool. So the conversion of the fleet to 1942 model bombers is proceedingly slowly - and almost all our bomber groups are understrength awaiting replacements at any one time. This has meant that after we had exhausted Soviet fighters to the point where they were ineffective or simply not flying, we did not have such a great mass for the final mass bombing raids at the end. With that the soviet losses would have been very much higher. However ironically the large losses this turn means we can accelerate the conversion process. Hence more of our bomber force will be in 1942 model level bombers which are in current production and with substantial numbers left in the pool for them as replacements to keep them close to full size. In future the Red Air Force will not be so lucky!

One concern does arrive from our Centre commander who notes that the results this turn have had adverse affects on our leaders stats. The bombing attacks are accumulating defeats for our air leaders. For example, von Richthofen had on turn 47 64 wins 22 losses on turn 48 69 wins 35 losses. This is determined by the table 16.5 in the manual which gives a leaders victory as a 250 or more in a battle. Bombers are worth 20 points fighters 10. So trading bombers for fighters even though very sensible given the relative sizes of our pools could have the side effect of getting von Richthofen sacked or executed. Perhaps von Richtofen has a high enough political to survive. But the losses this turn are a strategic investment for future turns and all our air leaders will be more comfortable in future with higher win margins.

[Crackaces]

As Telemecus pointed out .. my drive toward the Para rather than the Oka was driven by the request to but a staging base in the picture above right on the Para river. I believe decisions like this are what makes the game great.

[Telemecus]

Germany level bombers production screen end of turn 48

[Telemecus]

M60A3TTS
I am sure they have pools. So do I

[ledo]

Cool graph, Is there meant to be a secondary access on that graph for air groups? The modern fighters do seem to be increasing, it'd be nice to see some numbers on what they could be with more average losses (based on maybe some of the economic data EwaldvonKleist collected) and without strategic bombers, >2k modern fighters still feels like a lot.

Also, is there meant to be a secondary axis for airgroups?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: ledo
Also, is there meant to be a secondary axis for airgroups?

You caught me out as I was not expecting any sharp eyed readers to take an interest. So normally I would have made sure all of that was explained - so you caught me out below my usual standards!

This is actually the same graph as in this post tm.asp?m=4250683&mpage=4&key= (see post 118) - but extended for all the turns since. The explanation from there still applies and is

"The line in the chart called airgroups represents the number of fighter trained airgroups in the scenario, both at start and a few arrivals. It has been calibrated to the number of aircraft vertical axis at 20 per airgroup - the number the vast majority will have as their full complement. If our Soviet opponents have not created any new fighter trained airgroups, not allocated fighter bombers to bomber trained airgroups, and replacements are perfectly allocated then ... "

So there is no secondary axis - and strictly speaking it is not airgroups but the maximum number of aircraft they could have in airgroups if they do not create or disband any. Two thousand may sound a lot, but it should mean all the airgroups that come with the scenario would be on average about two thirds full. Normally Soviet players will be creating new airgroups by now. And if, as is usually the case, many remain in the pools and not in airgroups because of inefficiencies in replacements, then many airgroups may actually be well short of their maximum number of aricraft. This has had important implications for how many air groups will fly given their air doctrine for percentage required to fly. Alternatively they may have restricted replacements to many of their air groups to leave them nearly empty but ensure many (perhaps the best ones) have close to full complements of aircraft.

I have attached the spreadsheet this graph was made from to this post. This spreadsheet still needs to be updated for future game data and audited against loss totals. So my plan was to upload a later accurate version for a future turn for this game. But in terms of having the spreadsheet to play around with for other scenarios and possibilities, feel free to download and adapt!

[Crackaces]

I think the above posts demonstrate the power of a team game when the players can collaborate. Personally, I did not understand (and I still do not understand) the impact of the air war until I started combing through Telemecus' spreadsheets. It is my opinion that too many players think "I lost X number of devices this turn so I am doing good (or bad)". Sometimes players are relishing in their opponents losses. The effort of a spreadsheet enables the player to visualize multiple indices that all relate and extend those indices far into the future.

In this case, sacrificing some bombers (to the Soviets immediate glee) has a tremendous future value as the game develops. Some related indices are less devices produced because of more successful bombing efficiencies.

[Telemecus]

Turn 48 20-May-1942 Economic

With so much going into the air war this turn there is little left for strategic bombing. Our post on the air war also depicts our bombing in the north. We have the Yaroslavl vehicle factory now on 50% damage - quite a contrast with 1941 when we could never raise it far. With the Murom vehicle factory already on 50% it is not bombed this turn. But damage at the Kuybyshev factory is mid way to a permanent shut down of production now. We are also building up our way to shutting down the Kulebaki armoured car factory.

But the big gain this turn has been getting Gorky into fighter escort range. And with that our eyes wonder further. We are only a few hexes away from bombing the Kirov tank factory now.

[Telemecus]

Turn 48 20-May-1942 Economic continued

With the heavy industry now evacuated from Novorossiysk the short range strategic bombing the Rumanians are waging from Crimea expands its target list to include other manpower centres and railyards.

[Crackaces]

That “five hexes” Telemecus discussed a post earlier shaped my strategy forward. The ramifications are mind boggling to extend that deep into the Soviet Strategic airspace. But how? EvK built a strong line along the Pars that I feel at this point will be very tough to break. So the next avenue of attack is to threaten some other target and make the Soviets react. That leads to different Air Force strategies.

As you see above Telemecus started bombing (1) manpower centers at my behest. The game has funny algorithms. The smaller the target the more likely you will do damage. The game sets thresholds for how damage affects output. Makes sense to me. But there is a difference between a town of 50,000 and 500,000 when it comes to killing people. The game promotes hitting small targets where you can effect 50 recruitments per turn vs a huge city where damage results will not be noticeable. So 10 small towns smashed equal a small battle lost per turn. Seems logical ..

But Telemecus sees a much bigger opportunity. Especially since we are fighting operationally in a series of feints — Bomb railyards. Prevent the Soviets from shifting forces North to South.

[Telemecus]

Turn 48 Allocations
For information only - team allocations for turn 48.

[thedoctorking]

Given that neither side did much strategic bombing in the actual war, should the devs be thinking about nerfing this?

[M60A3TTS]

No reason at all. It already has been nerfed indirectly. This game started under an older patch that was later updated with increased Soviet AA units. Although there is talk about rolling some of that back, given the now very slow pace of patching WiTE, who knows when that will happen. Also, the Soviets suffered huge aircraft loss in the early part of this game due to very questionable decisions that few Soviet players now would make.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

No reason at all. It already has been nerfed indirectly. This game started under an older patch that was later updated with increased Soviet AA units. Although there is talk about rolling some of that back, given the now very slow pace of patching WiTE, who knows when that will happen. Also, the Soviets suffered huge aircraft loss in the early part of this game due to very questionable decisions that few Soviet players now would make.

Precision bombing at night was simply not possible at that time. Even daylight bombing of small targets was hard, as the USAAF found. This question has probably been answered already, but did the Germans (i.e., Foreign Armies East under Gehlen) know where the strategic factories were?

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

No reason at all. It already has been nerfed indirectly. This game started under an older patch that was later updated with increased Soviet AA units. Although there is talk about rolling some of that back, given the now very slow pace of patching WiTE, who knows when that will happen. Also, the Soviets suffered huge aircraft loss in the early part of this game due to very questionable decisions that few Soviet players now would make.

Precision bombing at night was simply not possible at that time. Even daylight bombing of small targets was hard, as the USAAF found. This question has probably been answered already, but did the Germans (i.e., Foreign Armies East under Gehlen) know where the strategic factories were?

I think this discussion brings out two dichotomous points. One, is WITE a game? If so, (given the definition of a game) the developers gives players choices and decisions to make with benefits and risks of that decision. Just because strategic bombing was not a focus of the Luftwaffe, it certainly could have been. The risks is a diversion of assets from the tactical and operational battlespace to the strategic battlespace. Then there are those that want the game to follow a set pattern that follows historical bounds.

This question might be better solved with a careful choice of opponents rather than restrictions in the game. Players who desire the former are not constrained and players wishing to stay in a historical context can constrain by "home rules".

Just a thought.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Precision bombing at night was simply not possible at that time. Even daylight bombing of small targets was hard, as the USAAF found. This question has probably been answered already, but did the Germans (i.e., Foreign Armies East under Gehlen) know where the strategic factories were?

Actually yes was asked by you earlier in the AARs for this game! [:D]

The answer at the start of the war was certainly yes they did. I once saw a book that was available from a public lending library in East London in the 1930s that actually had a map showing where they were at the time. If anyone could pick them up at a public library in East London then certainly the Germans knew. In addition a lot of American companies were contracted for special technical work in the Soviet factory construction in the 1920s and 1930s. I actually spoke to the son of one American who had to go and help set up the big factory at Magnitogorsk in the 1930s. Big American companies had to list the locations of those big projects as part of their listing requirements for the New York Stock exchange - so you could also get a lot of very specific details publicly available in New York for instance.

The more difficult question I have wanted the answer to is did they follow where the factories went to after they were evacuated. You can see German intelligence records of the time during the war sketching out where they thought the big factories were - although I do not know how accurate it was. There is an interesting moment in the documentary "Los Ninos de Rusia" which you can see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLlde6xDTbI. These were the kids in the Basque country who were evacuated at the start of the Spanish civil war to Leningrad but who were then not allowed to return by Stalin. When the Axis approached Leningrad they were evacuated to what they thought was a safer place - Stalingrad. Their teachers got to work in the factories. Some of the kids only returned as adults in the 1950s by UN action. But some did return to Nationalist Spain in 1942 and gave a full listing of the factories their teachers were working at in Stalingrad. I asked an elderly family friend who worked in army intelligence how credible would it be that the Germans knew where these factories were. His answer was he would be amazed if they did not. These factories employed tens of thousands of people which added to their families meant hundreds of thousands would know where they were. Many would be PoWs or HiWis willing to talk to the Axis, and there would be so many independently confirmed reports of where a big factory was that it would be beyond doubt. So the Spanish refugee kids were only a very small proportion of the possible sources.

It should be rememberd nowadays when we talk about a factory we think of a large shed that gets a lorry to deliver supplies, puts things together and then sends the product away by lorry to the next factory. Soviet factories at the time were themselves the size of cities. Indeed cities like Magnitogorsk could even be more properly called factories themselves. They were built to be fully integrated. So a tank factory not only built the guns, they also built the paper clips that the tank navigator used. They also provided schools and hospitals for the workers and families on site. Factories the size of cities can be picked up and identified by aerial intelligence and were.

Did the Germans bomb factories during the war? Yes they did. A link given earlier by another user on this site pointed to the German bombing of Gorky Automobile Plant, Sokol, Krasnoe Sormovo and the Dvigatel Revolyutsii factories see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_o ... rld_War_II . You will see for example it describes one precision bombing raid in 1942 where German agents on the ground near Gorky shot signal flares to guide one bomber in to the precise building to target. You can find similar records for all the big Soviet industrial cities.

Finally the Führer Directive 21 which launched Barbarossa explicitly said the 1941 operaion would conclude with industrial bombing - "In order that maximum forces may be available for operations against the enemy air force and for direct support of the army, the munitions industry will not be attacked while the major operation is in progress. Only after the conclusion of the mobile operations will such attacks, and in particular attacks against the industrial area of the Urals, be considered." see https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrer_Directive_21

This final bombing of the Urals did not happen as Barbarossa did not achieve its ground goals - if it had then it would be ahistorical to disallow the very thing the Germans were planning.

In my view the ahistorical thing in most games is to see the Soviet air force used exclusively near the front lines. The Red Air force historically did defend its rear area factories - you can see the references above talking about the LaGG-3 air groups sent to defend Gorky. The complaint used to be that the Soviet air force was overpowered. As a result it was nerfed in a recent patch. I think the correct answer was that the threat of industrial bombing should mean Soviet players do distribute their air force to defend rear area industry. That way the Soviet air force would be less over powering at the front and Axis industrial bombing would be less successful - as indeed is historical.

There is a good argument though about the mechanics of how bombing damage effects what industry. I can see it is fairly easy at the time to bomb a factory the size of a city - but you could not know if you were hitting the final assembly area or some more generic upstream production like ball bearings. So I found the idea of saying you could bomb a city but which factory in the city you actually hit would be random to be attractive. Other things to look at are repair rates and what impact damage actually has on production or expansion.

[Zorch]

Thank you both for a comprehensive answer.

[Telemecus]

Perhaps too comprehensive! [&:]