OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

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RFalvo69
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RFalvo69 »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Without freedom, life is not worth living.

I was taught in high-school, in Philosophy class, that "Freedom is the ability to exercise rational self-determination" followed by "then taking responsibility for your actions." Wasting a life for "freedom" is not rational. Wasting another's life for "freedom" (because you transmitted the Covid 19 to him) means to live forever with this responsibility on your shoulders.

Freedom = "I do what I want and I don't care" is childish, dangerous and harbinger of chaos in any society. Sure, one can moon a rabid tiger if that's freedom for him. It's one of the many ways that evolution uses.
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by DD696 »

Just have another drink. After all, that is what you say to me. Wanna argue about that?
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Without freedom, life is not worth living.

I was taught in high-school, in Philosophy class, that "Freedom is the ability to exercise rational self-determination" followed by "then taking responsibility for your actions." Wasting a life for "freedom" is not rational. Wasting another's life for "freedom" (because you transmitted the Covid 19 to him) means to live forever with this responsibility on your shoulders.

Freedom = "I do what I want and I don't care" is childish, dangerous and harbinger of chaos in any society. Sure, one can moon a rabid tiger if that's freedom for him. It's one of the many ways that evolution uses.

I never said anything about getting other people ill. On this thread and others I have stated that when you are sick, be selfish and do not share.

If you want safety from Covid-19, North Korea maintains that they have it controlled. Go ahead and move there, anybody who wants to be completely safe from Covid-18 can do so.

With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RFalvo69 »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?
"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

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Sammy5IsAlive
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With your rights come responsibilities. Freedom is not doing what you want at the expense of others, not in modern society. People who give up freedom for safety have neither.

I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: RFalvo69



I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).

When the government limits people from gathering, doing business, going to church, et cetera, then your rights to do so are taken away. Those things can be done and with reasonable precautions, can be done fairly safely. I have even heard of people getting into trouble with the local government because they gathered together but did not even leave their automobiles. Some large gatherings are allowed but others are not.

https://ussanews.com/News1/2020/07/16/p ... strations/

When this is over and/or calmed down, maybe a Korean style gathering of information can be done with assurances that the information will not be kept.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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Sammy5IsAlive
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe



Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).

When the government limits people from gathering, doing business, going to church, et cetera, then your rights to do so are taken away. Those things can be done and with reasonable precautions, can be done fairly safely. I have even heard of people getting into trouble with the local government because they gathered together but did not even leave their automobiles. Some large gatherings are allowed but others are not.

https://ussanews.com/News1/2020/07/16/p ... strations/

When this is over and/or calmed down, maybe a Korean style gathering of information can be done with assurances that the information will not be kept.

But your initial point was not about rights being taken away in the context of a pandemic but a fear that they would not be returned. Do you really see some kind of 'boogieman' government round the corner in the US that in the long term would be looking to impinge upon freedoms of political association/protest, freedom of religion etc?

FWIW I agree about your final point about S. Korea (and by extension China who seem to have taken a similarly extreme approach to their management and monitoring of the public). From one perspective S. Korea and China have put the US and many European nations to shame in their management of the pandemic. But from the other perspective many of the approaches they have used would not be acceptable to the public - especially in the US/UK.
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive



Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).

When the government limits people from gathering, doing business, going to church, et cetera, then your rights to do so are taken away. Those things can be done and with reasonable precautions, can be done fairly safely. I have even heard of people getting into trouble with the local government because they gathered together but did not even leave their automobiles. Some large gatherings are allowed but others are not.

https://ussanews.com/News1/2020/07/16/p ... strations/

When this is over and/or calmed down, maybe a Korean style gathering of information can be done with assurances that the information will not be kept.

But your initial point was not about rights being taken away in the context of a pandemic but a fear that they would not be returned. Do you really see some kind of 'boogieman' government round the corner in the US that in the long term would be looking to impinge upon freedoms of political association/protest, freedom of religion etc?

I already have seen rights infringed upon in the name of safety.

FWIW I agree about your final point about S. Korea (and by extension China who seem to have taken a similarly extreme approach to their management and monitoring of the public). From one perspective S. Korea and China have put the US and many European nations to shame in their management of the pandemic. But from the other perspective many of the approaches they have used would not be acceptable to the public - especially in the US/UK.

The local Chines messed up. The national government finally stepped in.

But there are other things than can be done to help stop/slow down this pandemic and possibly future ones.

For more discussion, pm me.
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by Dante Fierro »

I really don't get why mandatory mask wearing is giving up your 'freedom'.

For me, freedom is to be able to go into a public space, or store, and not be at risk of catching
a deadly known virus that has already killed half a million humans worldwide. That (for me) is far
more 'freedom' than the mere imposition of having to wear a cloth over my face.

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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RangerJoe »

I really don't get why mandatory mask wearing is giving up your 'freedom'.

Neither do I.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by Shellshock »

ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro

I really don't get why mandatory mask wearing is giving up your 'freedom'.


I think for some they don’t want to admit that this is the new normal. They want the old America that they’re used to. Well, the only constant in life is change.

Seventy-five years ago citizens put on uniforms instead of masks and gave up a far more freedoms to fight totalitarianism. Far more inconvenient not to mention sometimes fatal. Have we really gotten this whiny and insular? Maybe that's the new normal too.
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by Dante Fierro »

I'm having to catch myself and take a step back and try to understand why the resistance to masks has been so strong. The only thing I can come up with is there does seem to have been a great deal of misinformation at the beginning of this pandemic, especially here in the states. Even the CDC has walked back some of its original pronouncements on masks. Dr. Fauci, just recently admitted he hadn't told the truth about masks.

This misinformation I suppose, is what was latched on to by Americans who didn't want to take this pandemic seriously, or believed in other theories about COVID-19, and so they marginalized the risks of the virus.

And this volume of change in the information being given, the different 'narratives' people have been exposed to, has made the atmosphere over wearing face masks vituperative and sometimes outright hostile, between those who believe COVID-19 is some kind of hoax, or that masks really have no impact on the virus - and those who are convinced masks do make a difference.

I personally am convinced that masks do make a difference - as are many people across the globe. 120 countries worldwide have mandated mask use by their citizens while in public spaces. However, I suppose, despite a good deal of evidence (IMO) that masks can and do make a difference, there are a number of counter arguments that the anti-maskers will make, some more reasonable than others, but of which they themselves are quite convinced are valid arguments.

So we're left with this unfortunate social environment (due to the misinformation, or the amount of conflicting information) with strong views on the subject of masks, where each side feels fairly certain that their position is correct over the other. And to add to this unfortunate environment, which in my opinion, is not helping us focus on handling this pandemic, is added the political dissension - which also often gets involved regarding the entire mask debate and/or how the pandemic should be managed.




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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro

I'm having to catch myself and take a step back and try to understand why the resistance to masks has been so strong. The only thing I can come up with is there does seem to have been a great deal of misinformation at the beginning of this pandemic, especially here in the states. Even the CDC has walked back some of its original pronouncements on masks. Dr. Fauci, just recently admitted he hadn't told the truth about masks.

This misinformation I suppose, is what was latched on to by Americans who didn't want to take this pandemic seriously, or believed in other theories about COVID-19, and so they marginalized the risks of the virus.

And this volume of change in the information being given, the different 'narratives' people have been exposed to, has made the atmosphere over wearing face masks vituperative and sometimes outright hostile, between those who believe COVID-19 is some kind of hoax, or that masks really have no impact on the virus - and those who are convinced masks do make a difference.

I personally am convinced that masks do make a difference - as are many people across the globe. 120 countries worldwide have mandated mask use by their citizens while in public spaces. However, I suppose, despite a good deal of evidence (IMO) that masks can and do make a difference, there are a number of counter arguments that the anti-maskers will make, some more reasonable than others, but of which they themselves are quite convinced are valid arguments.

So we're left with this unfortunate social environment (due to the misinformation, or the amount of conflicting information) with strong views on the subject of masks, where each side feels fairly certain that their position is correct over the other. And to add to this unfortunate environment, which in my opinion, is not helping us focus on handling this pandemic, is added the political dissension - which also often gets involved regarding the entire mask debate and/or how the pandemic should be managed.
It isn't that Dr. Fauci "didn't tell the truth", it is more accurate to say they initially did not know the truth. I heard his early press conferences and when someone asked about masks he said something very close to "we don't have any evidence that they do anything to help". Back in March, that was true - they were still struggling to find all the ways the virus can be transmitted.

New York was the big learning experience for the U.S. and those costly lessons should be taken to heart throughout the country. One if these lessons was that masks do help limit the distance that droplets are expelled, and the droplets are the primary means of transmission. The attacks on Fauci are in the same category as the attacks on WHO, which was also struggling to figure out what was true and what was not in the early part of the year, bearing in mind that WHO got a lot of its info from the CDC.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe



It has been done that way all over, including New York. They are not counting the people who test negative, just the number of tests. So that number fudging includes New York in the chicanery.


It's a shame there is no national standard on this. This each state choosing their own adventure is really working out well. Record cases, record infections, record hospitalizations, record death. 4% of the worlds population and 25% of the death. If only we had a Federal body or Center for disease control or a world renowned and respected expert on infectious disease that graduated first in his class from Columbia to lead us through this. If only we had a couple of States that have successfully flattened the curve to copy from. Too bad we don't have any of these things. At least Disney is open. Lets just keep on doing what we are doing and see how that works out for us? How is that going so far? But hey, Freedom!

Without freedom, life is not worth living.

So many deaths from states like New York forcing nursing homes to take Covid-19 positive patients and put them into nursing homes with the most vulnerable people.

How come you never respond to my questions? Can't answer them or are you to embarrassed to answer them?
We acquiesce to safety rules all the time - wearing hard hats in construction zones, wearing seat belts in cars, obeying red lights. Freedom is never absolute, so if the restriction is reasonable for the situation, just roll with it.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by Dante Fierro »

It isn't that Dr. Fauci "didn't tell the truth", it is more accurate to say they initially did not know the truth.

I don't believe that is quite correct BBfanboy. A few weeks ago, Dr. Fauci was interviewed on MediaIte's TheStreet and when replying to a question regarding the importance of masks, and why he was telling Americans not to wear a mask (at the start of the spread of the pandemic) Fauci's answer was:

"... we were concerned, the public health community, that it was a time when personal protective equipment, including N95 masks and surgical masks ... were in very short supply. And we wanted to make sure, mainly, the health care workers ... we did not want them to be without the equipment that they needed."

So that pretty much makes him a liar at the time.

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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth




It's a shame there is no national standard on this. This each state choosing their own adventure is really working out well. Record cases, record infections, record hospitalizations, record death. 4% of the worlds population and 25% of the death. If only we had a Federal body or Center for disease control or a world renowned and respected expert on infectious disease that graduated first in his class from Columbia to lead us through this. If only we had a couple of States that have successfully flattened the curve to copy from. Too bad we don't have any of these things. At least Disney is open. Lets just keep on doing what we are doing and see how that works out for us? How is that going so far? But hey, Freedom!

Without freedom, life is not worth living.

So many deaths from states like New York forcing nursing homes to take Covid-19 positive patients and put them into nursing homes with the most vulnerable people.

How come you never respond to my questions? Can't answer them or are you to embarrassed to answer them?
We acquiesce to safety rules all the time - wearing hard hats in construction zones, wearing seat belts in cars, obeying red lights. Freedom is never absolute, so if the restriction is reasonable for the situation, just roll with it.

I never sad anything against those rules. We give up things for societal rules. Some have different rules than others. I never said that freedom was absolute. Please don't twist what I state.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by fcooke »

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: RFalvo69



I agree with the first part, not with the second (and don't even see how the first one leads to the second). Those are the classic words that sound all big and glorious until they find themselves put in a real-World context - like a pandemic. Here in Europe we gave up a big chunk of our freedoms for safety from the Covid-19.

Up to now it is working pretty well (even if I personally expect a second wave as early as this Fall). How are things going in the USA?

Where I am at, until recently the closest case was over 30 km away. There were two known cases in that town. Now the closest case is about 10 km away but I don't know where that person lives. Some stores are now requiring face masks. No problem, I will wear them indoors even though my glasses fog up. I want to get at least one good one with the metal over the nose to help keep my glasses from fogging up.

So if there were no cases nearby for so long, why should I have been locked down? I did not worry about it and I still won't. I will take precautions however.

As far as giving up freedom for safety, massacres usually happens after one side disarms. If you give up your rights, you may never get them back.

Apparently one way to avoid your glasses misting up is to dip them in soapy water and then let them dry out. Apparently the lenses dry clear but with a film on them that reduces the misting. Another thing to try is to make sure you are breathing out through your nose - I've found that my initial reaction on wearing a mask was to breathe through my mouth a lot more - if you think of where the 'breath mist' goes in cold weather you can see how it might make a small difference.

I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with the last sentence. In a Coronavirus context - which specific rights do you worry about not getting back in the long run? Or is it more of a general statement of principle (in which case fair enough - although the argument seems to be a philosophical one that is not necessarily relevant to the current situation).
Many scuba divers prepare their diving masks to avoid fogging up by spitting on them and rubbing around the saliva across the mask. It works as I have used this approach. Not sure how well spitting on your glasses would go over in public. Though I suspect it would work too. Maybe with the heat wave in certain parts of the US glasses won't fog up as the difference in temp from exhaling vs the outdoor temp won't be high, but the minute you walk into an air conditioned building all bets are off......[:)]
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by 22sec »

I think for some the issue is that they look at under what law, or a state's constitution, an executive such as a governor or mayor has the legal authority to issue an order that carries with it a penalty. We should ask as American's is our Bill of Rights, our rule of law, only applicable when the government says it is, and that it can be tossed aside for any emergency? I will leave you with this example. In April, our mayor on his own decided to ban people from open carry within the city of Jackson. Thankfully even Jackson's City Council slapped him down, and he was force to quickly withdraw the order. It is a slippery slope, and one that goes against the foundation of this republic.
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RE: OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

Post by Rising-Sun »

Glad i didnt get infected as well these two ladies i am living with. I kept telling one of them stop going out unless you wear your mask and keep your hand clean. Pretty crazy upstate New York here. Dunno what it will be like on the second wave. Need to stock up on supplies and stay home.

Some places, people dont have a choice. So i dont know if there going to be another check rolling out again. Seriously i dont need it, but i can understand for those need it badly.

For other countries, is much far worst compare to our. Esp in China. There no freedom or help for those need it badly, couldnt imagine how many Chinese people suffers and lost of life as well. Not all Chinese are part of that CCP, they dont really have a choice or being threaten. Most of them are fear for their lives.
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