RHS 5 & 6.758 comprehensive update uploaded/frozen/final?

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el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - there will be a 4.47

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Sid,

In EOS 4.46 (and prior versions) there is a problem with the Soviet L class subs (slot 1585) - the ones with the mine racks. Whenever you reload them, they get messed up. Here's what I mean. There are 2 mine racks, with 14 ammo (which means 7 ammo each rack). Upon reloading (after laying the initial mine loadout), the ship display changes to now say there are 7 mine racks, with a total ammo of 2, and the '2' is displayed in red.

I looked at the database and tried to correct the problem so I could pass that on to you. First, I noted that Turrets (Mounts on the in-game ship display) is set to 0. Other mine-laying subs have 1, so I changed that to 1 and updated the ships. No change.

Second, I noted that the weapon is set to facing R, while other mine-laying subs have their mines as facing C. So, I changed the facing to C (leaving Mounts as 1). Still no good (same results as initially described).

At this point, I don't know what else to try changing, because everything else looks fine. I also looked at the device record and compared it to other mines - it looks okay as far as I can see.

Will look at it in 9 hours.
el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - there will be a 4.47

Post by el cid again »

I have found a way to further reduce manpower counts and possibly difficulty in taking static points.
This will delay 4.47 release by about 12 hours (I have to go to work).

Have figured out some more things - and asked some questions. Maybe we can make static units without static devices - even static big guns? And reduce reported manpower in the position - wether or not it matters. Maybe. Working on it.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »

I have asked if manpower matters in combat? And the answer is clear: no.

However, it looks wrong to have too much manpower. And ALL units with
static devices of any kind - including CD guns and naval guns ashore - get 9999 men
per device! Further - it appears there is NO need to assign devices static values at all.
We can make a unit static by calling it a "fortification."

To this end I will remove all static facility squads EXCEPT those in the guerilla regiments -
where their flaky nature is just what we want anyway. And I will redefine static devices
with real weight (or manpower) - no 9999 guns any more. Any unit that must be
static all the time will be called a fortification. If reasonable, the unit will have a pair of
6 inch guns - or more - and a value in the "fort" field = number of fixed batteries (or quality of
the fort). If not reasonable, the unit will be called an "industrial fortification" and have zero
in the "fort" field.

All this will be comprehensively folded into 4.47 - which releases in a matter of hours - whenever it is
done.

The effects of this should be two fold: slightly reduce the strength of some points (every squad counts,
and a static device IS a squad in all cases) - and reduce the reported manpower of all units presently
having static devices.
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Nemo121
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Nemo121 »

Would it be possible to create a PBEM ONLY version of EOS which features supply sinks which CAN be moved to out of the way areas if the city is threatened? While the manpower doesn't matter the presence of 18,000 support squads in a city hex in India sure as hell will. I think that the supply sinks are a great idea but their current implementation could be changed in PBEMs with benefit IMO.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Nemo121 »

Hmm I've downloaded V4.46 of everything and checked it out... I still see tens of thousands of support squads in cities.
 
E.g. Vladivostok features 18,000 support squads ( vs a need of about 700 ). In any ground combat after the fire phase is resolved these support squads will add 1/10th of their number ( not firepower) to the defending forces. End result this support squads add 1,800 AV to the defender or to put it another way they add the equivalent of about 5 divisions to the defence.
 
I know I keep banging on at this but as I see it it just rules entire areas "off limits" to assault ( and some of these areas are in the DEI which is extremely problematic). Fine if you want to do that but I think that isn't the intention.
 
In one or two places on the map I've found allied bases where resources appear at a given rate... Could this not be made widespread instead of supply sinks?

E.g. If a place produced 500 resources per day but no supply would it not be possible to just create an RHS variant in which supply sinks were removed and so were on-map resources in that base. Instead the same sort of thing as happens at Kodiak and Noumea could be done with these resources and./or supply would just appear at the base.
 
The only drawback would be that one couldn't bomb those resources and supply but I think that's a small price to pay.
 

IF you didn't want to do that then would you consider hosting a mod if someone else made it?
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

support squads will add 1/10th of their number ( not firepower) to the defending forces.

Sid,

Is this (the large number of support squads) what you are changing in relation to manpower (that you mention above)?
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Nemo121 »

witpqs,
 
My understanding is that the change EL Cid is talking about is reducing manpower by removing Static Facilities, not support squads.
 
 
El Cid,
Possible database errors:
1. 094- Torpedo Transport. Is a 10 knot ship really meant to have a manoeuvre of 92?
 
2. 121 & 122. They have torpedo tubes in the rear... Surely it would make more sense to make these torpedo tubes be in the Front?
 
3. 169 should be a CL not an AP... Probably accounts for why they have done so poorly in surface combat in my game...
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el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Would it be possible to create a PBEM ONLY version of EOS which features supply sinks which CAN be moved to out of the way areas if the city is threatened? While the manpower doesn't matter the presence of 18,000 support squads in a city hex in India sure as hell will. I think that the supply sinks are a great idea but their current implementation could be changed in PBEMs with benefit IMO.


Boy am I confused. Who would move them? And also, they are static so they will not move - so supply is consumed at the point of creation - so it does not go somewhere else - which it will if it can. Under AI control I see no way at all to get AI to move such things intelligently - but I can testify from tests the AI WILL move them ALL the time - unintelligently. I am not grasping your concept.

Anyway - there are pros and cons to everything. I have divided big supply sinks by 10 squad count wise - de facto - by converting them to support squads. And Asonol got divided by 3 again on top of that. It SHOULD be hard to walk in and take over - and I think we need to test now to see if we like it. Also - I doubt Japan can GET to Asonol -
AI sure doesen't - and the logistics are going to be stretched to do it. Lets see what happens.

I have come up with what may be a better system - but it is going to take another day to enter all the location changes. No pure supply sinks will ever move now. And no static squads will add to manpower counts to make things seem worse than they are (manpower is pure chrome and has zero meaning in combat terms). But the static squads count at full value - so converting them to support will divide their real combat value by 10 as well.
el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

witpqs,

My understanding is that the change EL Cid is talking about is reducing manpower by removing Static Facilities, not support squads.


El Cid,
Possible database errors:
1. 094- Torpedo Transport. Is a 10 knot ship really meant to have a manoeuvre of 92?

Don't think we use them - this is probably its CHS value - where they get used.

2. 121 & 122. They have torpedo tubes in the rear... Surely it would make more sense to make these torpedo tubes be in the Front?

Correct

3. 169 should be a CL not an AP... Probably accounts for why they have done so poorly in surface combat in my game...


Correct in the RHS system - AMCs are CLs for code reasons.
el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: Nemo121

support squads will add 1/10th of their number ( not firepower) to the defending forces.

Sid,

Is this (the large number of support squads) what you are changing in relation to manpower (that you mention above)?

Manpower is a strange fictional beaste - code gets it from the weight of a device! So a static device with 9999 weight = 9999 men - apparently. We are changing ALL static devices to a real weight (or crew size) value. And not using the one static device that cannot change - the static facility squad - most of the time.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Nemo121 »

Well El Cid, in my game vs a human I was in excellent shape to make a strong landing in India ( with 10 divisions going to India and 5 to DEI... and from there to India as part of a 2nd wave) with all the requisite air ( several hundred Zeroes and bombers), naval ( 8+ CVLs and CVEs+ 5 or 6BBs and CAs and DDs in suitable numbers) as well as all the support forces ( base forces, construction Bns and assault engineers) with more than sufficient supplies to make it succesfull in about the 3rd week of January 42.

I think it is definitely doable to take India so long as you sacrifice in certain other areas ( Phillipines and the Pacific) and are willing to accept the necessary losses... You are right, however, that it is an operation which must be carried out by ruthlessly stripping other areas of supplies. China, for example, has been stripped bare in order to give me the supplies for this operation.


Well my suggestion was to simply make a PBEM-only version in which the support squads are removed....

Can I ask one favour... Can you put the unit at Asansol or Karachi in a urban, level 9 fort hex which as attacked by several Japanese divisions and post the results of said combat?

I'd be willing to bet that the 10,000+ support squads will, all by themselves, get more than 3,000 AV even taking account of the low experience and morale of these support squads.
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el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »


[quote]ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Well El Cid, in my game vs a human I was in excellent shape to make a strong landing in India ( with 10 divisions going to India and 5 to DEI... and from there to India as part of a 2nd wave) with all the requisite air ( several hundred Zeroes and bombers), naval ( 8+ CVLs and CVEs+ 5 or 6BBs and CAs and DDs in suitable numbers) as well as all the support forces ( base forces, construction Bns and assault engineers) with more than sufficient supplies to make it succesfull in about the 3rd week of January 42.

I think it is definitely doable to take India so long as you sacrifice in certain other areas ( Phillipines and the Pacific)



This seems like Twilight Zone science fiction nonsense to me: the Philippines are the vital center squares of the Chessboard - and also a major Allied base of operations right in the middle of the sea line of communications to the Oil from points south. Not to mention the vital raw materials on Luzon itself (including the largest copper mine in Asia). It was never a strategic option to ignore them. And Adm Yamamoto himself came to believe - in only two days of war - that the Pacific was much MORE important than the Japanese war plan had allowed it to be - that Japan SHOULD HAVE committed its forces to invade Hawaii right up front. Ignoring both seems to me to guarantee the early defeat of Japan.
el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »

Why a level 9 fort? Asonol is not a level 9 fort.

I do not expect any Japanese attacks on Asonol. If they occur, I am almost sure they will fail - because a smart Allied player is going to put a lot of troops there - to eat those supplies and fight! It isn't the supply sink that is the problem - it is the supply source! Defended - with or without the sink - Asonol should be a tough nut to crack. I would by pass it. Being a modern maneuver theorist. Let em rot.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Nemo121 »

El Cid,

War is about phasing.... If I choose to take now what cannot be taken later (India) and take later what can always be taken ( the Phillipines) then so be it.

To condemn a valid strategic choice ( which runs great risks for the promise of great rewards) as "twilight zone science fiction nonsense" is extremely narrow-minded and ill-judged.


As to your view that the 18,000 support squads won't be a problem... Hmm, they contain as much combat power as ALL Allied forces in India on December 7th 1941. So is it your official position that having up to 1800 AV defending a base will make NO difference to an attack on that base? Now THAT'S Twilight zone nonsense.


Hyperbole doesn't help here. The fact is that 1/10th of the support squads is added to the AV of the defence of the base the support squads are stationed at and THAT DOES UNBALANCE THE GAME. Simple.


As to letting them rot.... Not really gonna be feasible since "letting them rot" means not taking the base for many months ( since it takes a lot of time for 18,000 squads to disable because of lack of supplies) and losing ALL of the resources which one would be gaining in that time.



BTW how far away is 4.47? Since it looks like you aren't going to fix this problem I am thinking of removing the supply sinks in a mini-mod and playing that instead. Obviously though I can't do that until 4.47 is released.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: Nemo121

support squads will add 1/10th of their number ( not firepower) to the defending forces.

Sid,

Is this (the large number of support squads) what you are changing in relation to manpower (that you mention above)?

Manpower is a strange fictional beaste - code gets it from the weight of a device! So a static device with 9999 weight = 9999 men - apparently. We are changing ALL static devices to a real weight (or crew size) value. And not using the one static device that cannot change - the static facility squad - most of the time.
This is probably not a good thing for guns that were truely CD. For instance, a pedestal mounted 6" CD Gun will be spiked and the breech removed if a retreat is called for. Ditto for any other true CD weapon. Exception do of course exist, such as the 155mm Gun/Panama Mount system or maybe rail mounted guns. If a device is not 9999 then it can potentially retreat. i do not see this happening to 16" CD Guns.
el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

El Cid,

War is about phasing.... If I choose to take now what cannot be taken later (India) and take later what can always be taken ( the Phillipines) then so be it.

REPLY: I do agree. I believe in power to the players, and the right to step on your own tail (or not, be brilliant when I think it is doomed to failure). And please, when you play me, don't invade the Philippines!

To condemn a valid strategic choice ( which runs great risks for the promise of great rewards) as "twilight zone science fiction nonsense" is extremely narrow-minded and ill-judged.

REPLY: Well - if you can think by passing the Philippines makes strategic sense - I can think it is strategic nonsense.
And I would love to test it in a game. I predict a short game!

As to your view that the 18,000 support squads won't be a problem... Hmm, they contain as much combat power as ALL Allied forces in India on December 7th 1941. So is it your official position that having up to 1800 AV defending a base will make NO difference to an attack on that base? Now THAT'S Twilight zone nonsense.

REPLY: Actually my view is that putting any significant number of squads in a major supply source hex is a problem.
I think you are missing the larger point: real combat units are going to be a lot tougher in this hex than the supply sink is. AI is not going to feed the supply sink first - it will split even between combat units and supply sink - and so you will feed units supplies that - in my intent - there would be no supplies for. The problem really IS the supply source - combined with any significant number of squads. A supply sink dividing by 10 and having no firepower is small potatoes compared to any real units - more so now in RHS that all support squads are divided by 5 in firepower.
All other mods, support squads have more firepower than many crew served weapons do! If this fix does not work, we have to consider breaking up the supply sources - not my first choice. On the other hand, I don't want to go all the way back to stock: you can take a gigantic region of thousands of sq miles with vast assets and industrial workers - with anything - even a submarine raiding party.


Hyperbole doesn't help here. The fact is that 1/10th of the support squads is added to the AV of the defence of the base the support squads are stationed at and THAT DOES UNBALANCE THE GAME. Simple.

REPLY: OK - maybe. I don't think we know that. But maybe. Does not the problem of putting combat units in a major supply source WITHOUT a sink unbalance it even more? Then you get ALL those free supplies feeding the units. Even if no units are present- you get free supplies every day - so there are a million points in India in - what- three months? That does not unbalance the game. I am addressing the excess supply. Maybe not perfectly. I do what can be done. You got a better idea - I will adopt it.


As to letting them rot.... Not really gonna be feasible since "letting them rot" means not taking the base for many months ( since it takes a lot of time for 18,000 squads to disable because of lack of supplies) and losing ALL of the resources which one would be gaining in that time.

REPLY: WOrse - they won't lack supplies sitting on a major supply source.


BTW how far away is 4.47? Since it looks like you aren't going to fix this problem I am thinking of removing the supply sinks in a mini-mod and playing that instead. Obviously though I can't do that until 4.47 is released.


REPLY: Regretfully - not until tomorrow. There are a LOT of lines to change - times six. But I have found a number of things that could be better - or be corrected - and a lot of things that will look better (I call them "cosmetics" and usually they are called "chrome"). I have no intent of removing the supply sinks - RHS (and IMHO WITP) makes no sense with all those free supplies. We will continue to work on 'eating' them. I have, however, dreamed up a way to do it exploiting existing code - if it works. Seems impossible it might be so simple - but I need to test to know.
el cid again
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: witpqs



Sid,

Is this (the large number of support squads) what you are changing in relation to manpower (that you mention above)?

Manpower is a strange fictional beaste - code gets it from the weight of a device! So a static device with 9999 weight = 9999 men - apparently. We are changing ALL static devices to a real weight (or crew size) value. And not using the one static device that cannot change - the static facility squad - most of the time.
This is probably not a good thing for guns that were truely CD. For instance, a pedestal mounted 6" CD Gun will be spiked and the breech removed if a retreat is called for. Ditto for any other true CD weapon. Exception do of course exist, such as the 155mm Gun/Panama Mount system or maybe rail mounted guns. If a device is not 9999 then it can potentially retreat. i do not see this happening to 16" CD Guns.


The point is, CD forts do NOT retreat - ever. The OLD system - CD guns in a unit NOT a fortress COULD retreat - if the weight was below 9999. I propose that if the battery is immobile - even a 4 inch one - call it a fortress. It won't retreat - and you won't have almost 10,000 men in the reports either.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Nemo121 »

I think you are missing the larger point: real combat units are going to be a lot tougher in this hex than the supply sink is.

Well, let's see what has actually happened. Combat unit in base with 40 to 100 AV. Combat AV generated in hex anywhere between 2000 and 3000+. Let's be generous and give double the AV for Level 2 or 3 forts and triple that again for woods. 100 AV would end up at around 600 AV. Where's the other 2400+ AV coming from? The supply sink.

So, as I've stated again and again and again and again ( but as seems to have been missed occasionally) these supply sinks end up having the combat power of several divisions. Overall I've played about a game year's worth of turns in this game and conducted a lot of attacks. The ONLY time I saw a unit being as badly shredded as I have had 2 divisions and a Bde shredded by separate supply sinks is when I launched an amphibious attack on an atoll which unloaded over 4 days ;). I had one division end up with 11 functional squads out of over 300 after just ONE day's attacks.


As to what I would do "better"... Well I don't know a perfect solution but I will try to create something better than the current system cause the supply sink solution is deeply flawed IMO. Basically my current thinking revolves around disabling a lot of the resource points so that only a little "free supply" gets created at these places while sufficient resources are made ( JUST) to feed the factories in nearby areas. Later, if the Japanese capture them they can expand resource production at a cost of 1000 tons of supply per resource point improved.

It has the effect of not flooding India in massive amounts of over-supply from turn 1 but gives the Japanese the ability to ramp up resource and supply production significantly.

Theoretically it is an imperfect solution but in terms of gameplay I expect it to work relatively well since it is focussed on the EFFECT in-game as opposed to what the books say should be there.

I also intend the following:
1. The ship fixes I mentioned to yourself in the other RHS thread.

2. Putting a DISABLED factory in a lot of bases in DEI, Malaysia etc so that the Japanese can follow the strategy of building up small HI centres closer to the sources of oil and resource. I think this is logical.

3. Removal of R&D factories throughout Japan and their replacement by 1 x DISABLED A6M2 factories. Thus Jap players can do R&D but must pay the full cost for it ( as opposed to getting a lot for free as occurs in the current game). I found Mogami's arguments on this to be persuasive.

4. Where there are no supply sinks I'm happy to leave the free supply or whatever the same in most cases except that I see no reason for mainland bases to receive this free supply. If they are to receive supply let them have resource centres to produce it. This would mean removin free supply from Indian and Chinese bases... The farthest Soviet base would still receive the supply in order to simulate stuff arriving from western Soviet Union.


So, essentially the goal will be to make as much supply and resource production on-map as possible whilst avoiding supply sinks but to prevent the "loads of free supply" problem by making much of those resources being damaged. A simple equation will give me the correct mix between disabled and enabled resource centres on Turn 1 by comparing output over 3 years.

E.g. 365 resources would produce about 500 tons of supply per day or 180,000 per year. Over 3 years that is 540,000 tons of supply. If we assume this is a supply sink area which is set up so that no supplies are produced in RHS ( 0 supply over 3 years) then we can see that so long as we ensure that over the 3 years the cost in repair PLUS shortfall in production is 540,000 tons then we have the exact same situation as in RHS except we no longer need these hugely unbalancing supply sinks. Do I think it is perfect? No but it is greatly superior to supply sinks without a single combat troop present massing 3000 AV.

E.g. with 0 resources (365 disabled) on Turn 1 the shortfall in production in Year 1, assuming repair of 1 resource point per day, would be about 90,0000 tons of supply with another 365,000 tons having been spent on repair. So we start off with a debt of 455,0000 tons of supply. Years 2 and 3 would each see a surplus of 180,000 tons and no need for supply to be spent on further repairs ( we are ignoring the effects of allied bombing as we're just running a really simple statistical model here to compare supply output over the course of the war using two different methods of representing/limiting its production). End result over the course of 3 years disabling 0 resources and assuming 1 point of resources are repaired per day we would end up with a debt of 95,000 relative to RHS supply production.

In the end even if the supply sink were captured on 7th December 1941 it would take until, roughly, the end of mid-45 for the total number of supplies PRODUCED by the supply sink to equal the number of supplies sunk into it to repair it.

So, over the course of the war we have ended up with equivalent supply levels. Resource numbers would be lower but as we all know the limiters of Japanese industrial and military expansion are HI and Oil and not really so much resources.



So, mathematically speaking over the course of the way ( or at least until end of May 1945) it is equivalent, in supply terms, to put a huge supply sink there which grossly unbalances ground combat OR to put 0 able resources and 365 disabled resources in a base. Sure the second option messes up resource production somewhat but IMO low resource levels are not nearly as unbalancing to the game as these huge supply sinks.



What, pray tell, is this other method you've come across. It might be interesting to consider as all I'm interested in is a fix which gets rids of these ridiculously over-powered supply sinks which shred elite combat formations left, right and centre.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Accipiter »

That sounds like a fantastic idea Nemo as it would get around the AV from the support squads but still have a similar effect that the supply sinks perform for the economy.
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RE: RHS 4.4x update - Reducing manpower counts

Post by Nemo121 »

Aye, well that's the plan... I don't pretend it is a perfect work-around but if there's interest in it as a work-around I could make it available once it is done.
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