Ideas for Land Unit writeups

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: hazpak

PS anyone know what LG stands for on one of the Japanese marine units? I've looked and have drawn a blank [&:] i'll probably kick myself later.

Lucky Goldstar? [:)]

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: hazpak

I sympathise capitan - I also can't find much on the Japanese militias other than they existed. Also the ficticious units (motor and mech inf) are a bit of a mystery as well. I've got a reasonable amount of information on most of the japanese armies but it doesn't come close to the information you have been able to collect for the Germans. Still waiting on books to come out of storage.

How do we intend to approach divisions? treat them as generics or find out about their numbered equivalent?

Haz.
PS anyone know what LG stands for on one of the Japanese marine units? I've looked and have drawn a blank [&:] i'll probably kick myself later.

I just spent 20 minutes trying to find out what LG means but I had no luck. There is a lot of good information on other things though.

My thinking of LG is that it is a marine corps that was not part of SNLF maybe? Maybe it is something similar to the Imperial Guard. Lucky Guard? [X(] Well anyway, I am sure someone has asked the question on the WIF-webring. Go have a look there.

[CBoehm]

I was even investigating weather it might be some sort of romannumeral like 50.guards or 50.something-else-marinesomething ....no luck so far.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

LG? A pure guess would be Landing Group.

[trees trees]

I wouldn't bother trying to do write-ups on the MIL units...they are part of the design of Final Edition. They are generic units that represent each country's replacement and recruitment systems...you can rush your new recruiting classes into the army or you can spend a little bit more time on their training, i.e. you can build MIL or INF, your choice. They also represent 'Reserve' units that would be activated upon mobilization, particularly for the minor countries. In real life these units would have actual numerical designations, but the research to discover all of these would be rather daunting.

I also think you may have problems trying to do a counter-by-counter writeup of the Russian units. The MECH and ARM units are just numbered sequentially; the first one to appear in the force pool as a white-print becomes the first one designated a 'Guards' unit. I think in real life those designations were earned in combat for a unit that performed well ... it would keep it's original number with the Guards label appended to it. In WiF there are also no "Shock" armies that became the biggest and best Soviet units by the end of the war. The GBA designations are also simply sequential. The initial black-print INF units (and GARR units, requiring another explanation of the WiF design for this type of unit) do use historical designations, so the 62nd Army that initially held the core of Stalingrad is a WiF counter. Another example is the 23rd Army, which held the front northwest of Leningrad. In WiF that is a 3-1 GARR.

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: capitan

Status report on the German units:

* All INF done
* All HQs done

Just to reiterate a point made earlier for anyone who missed it.

All HQ units have already been done for all countries. Revisions and suggestions are welcome (as Toed has already done for Gustav V). Please send them direct to me via PM

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

ORIGINAL: capitan

Status report on the German units:

* All INF done
* All HQs done

Just to reiterate a point made earlier for anyone who missed it.

All HQ units have already been done for all countries. Revisions and suggestions are welcome (as Toed has already done for Gustav V). Please send them direct to me via PM

[X(] Oops, I hope it did not look like I did them [:-] It was not my intention anyway

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: trees trees

I wouldn't bother trying to do write-ups on the MIL units...they are part of the design of Final Edition. They are generic units that represent each country's replacement and recruitment systems...you can rush your new recruiting classes into the army or you can spend a little bit more time on their training, i.e. you can build MIL or INF, your choice. They also represent 'Reserve' units that would be activated upon mobilization, particularly for the minor countries. In real life these units would have actual numerical designations, but the research to discover all of these would be rather daunting.

I also think you may have problems trying to do a counter-by-counter writeup of the Russian units. The MECH and ARM units are just numbered sequentially; the first one to appear in the force pool as a white-print becomes the first one designated a 'Guards' unit. I think in real life those designations were earned in combat for a unit that performed well ... it would keep it's original number with the Guards label appended to it. In WiF there are also no "Shock" armies that became the biggest and best Soviet units by the end of the war. The GBA designations are also simply sequential. The initial black-print INF units (and GARR units, requiring another explanation of the WiF design for this type of unit) do use historical designations, so the 62nd Army that initially held the core of Stalingrad is a WiF counter. Another example is the 23rd Army, which held the front northwest of Leningrad. In WiF that is a 3-1 GARR.

Very interesting! I did not know that about the Russian army and that was good information to have before going to search for it. Where did you get this information?

However, I do feel that each unit need to, if at all possible, have it´s own feel. In my opinion we should try and avoid too much generic stuff, it is not so much fun and interesting to read and hence counterproductive.

When we get to the Russians we will have to see what we can do with them

As for the militia I will maybe see if I can find something about local Landwehr divisions. That could serve well for this rabble of a unit [:)]

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

LG? A pure guess would be Landing Group.

A suggestion on the WIF discussion list was Life Guards [:D]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: capitan

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
LG? A pure guess would be Landing Group.

A suggestion on the WIF discussion list was Life Guards [:D]

I looked in a couple of books, and I only found something about the Luzon 'Shobu' Group (LG), led by Yamashita in 1944-45 (152,000 men). I don't think that the LG MAR is that unit.
I found no reference in japanese naval landing units to some "LG" kind of troops.

[Mziln]

[font="times new roman"]Japanese Naval Landing Forces
Unit                              Size                  Comments
1st Kure SNLF            1401 men         Landing at Legaspi, (Philippines)
2nd Kure SNLF           1401 men         Landing at Jolo Island (Philippines)
1st Maizuru SNLF        746 men           At Hainan Naval District, 3rd China Fleet
2nd Maizuru SNLF      1069 men         Landing on Wake Island
1st Sasebo SNLF        1622 men         Landing on Menado, Celebes
2nd Sasebo SNLF       1473 men         Under 32 Special Base Force, 3rd Fleet
8th Sasebo SNLF        746 men           At Hainan Naval District, 3rd China Fleet
Shanghai SNLF            746 men           Operated from port of Shanghai, China
1st Yokosuka SNLF    849 men           Parachutes onto Menado airfield, Celebes (naval parachute unit)
2nd Yokosuka SNLF   746 men           Landings at Miri, Seria, and Lutong, Sarawak
3rd Yokosuka SNLF   849 men           Landing on Koepang, Timor Island (naval parachute unit)
4th Yokosuka SNLF    746 men           At Hainan Naval District, 3rd China Fleet[/font]

[hazpak]

Ok LG seems to be a ficticious unit. Much like the Imperial Guard marine unit. In reality the imperial guard were brigade groups of infantry that fought in China and acted as guards of the Imperial Family [8|] shock that... as Mziln the SNLF were the 'marines' for the japanese.

Do we want to make a general statement about militias eg raised in times of need when there was a direct threat to the nation?

haz.

[trees trees]

ORIGINAL: capitan

Very interesting! I did not know that about the Russian army and that was good information to have before going to search for it. Where did you get this information?

However, I do feel that each unit need to, if at all possible, have it´s own feel. In my opinion we should try and avoid too much generic stuff, it is not so much fun and interesting to read and hence counterproductive.

When we get to the Russians we will have to see what we can do with them

As for the militia I will maybe see if I can find something about local Landwehr divisions. That could serve well for this rabble of a unit [:)]

That's just information I've absorbed over the years reading histories of the Eastern Front. I can't point to a specific volume.

A lot of units in WiF don't have a realistic historical designation. Perhaps a majority of them do have one, but plenty don't. In addition to explaining that there was no such unit as the "2nd Guards Garrison Army" (there were a scattering of "Fortress" units in WWII, but not very many officially designated static units), a land unit write-up will have to explain that the "MECH" units are another design innovation of WiF. Aside from German 'Panzergrenadier' regiments I don't think many of the WWII armies used 'armored infantry' units on a large scale, particularly at the corps level. The American army did somewhat with their flexible Combat Commands (Brigades) that could feature two tank+one infantry CC or two infantry+one tank CC in a division. Probably someone else out there would know more about the American OOB than I. But I am fairly sure that some of the German MECH units in WiF have numerical designations that correspond to Panzer corps, in actuality an ARMored corp, so I hope that is mentioned.

People have also pointed out that with the possible exception of the American portion of Operation Market-Garden, there were never any corps-level paradrops in WWII, nor corps level parachute units.

For Japan it won't be too easy to explain the "Kwantung" MOT army, which was neither of MOT type, appeared in the early 30s not the 40s, and as the Soviets proved in 1945, was not elite.

China has several historic unit designations, notably for the Communists, but I suspect many of their designations aren't accurate. Researching these is also exceptionally difficult, I've tried.

Not all of the MILitia are 'rabble'. Good WiF play is to build out the MIL, ship the worst of them off to garrison backwater areas, and then use the White-print ones as cheap losses that are quick to replace. But they are a generic unit, there is no way around that. Original WiF didn't have any unit designations at all, so it is chock full of hard to designate units.

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: capitan
[X(] Oops, I hope it did not look like I did them [:-] It was not my intention anyway

I didn't see your statement as implying that you did do the HQ units. I think we're just working on better co-ordination to avoid duplication of work.

[Neilster]

For Japan it won't be too easy to explain the "Kwantung" MOT army, which was neither of MOT type, appeared in the early 30s not the 40s, and as the Soviets proved in 1945, was not elite.

From memory it did contain a fairly high motorized component and was considered high quality before most of its transport and best units were bled off to other fronts, leaving it a shell in Aug 1945.

Cheers, Neilster

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: trees trees

ORIGINAL: capitan

Very interesting! I did not know that about the Russian army and that was good information to have before going to search for it. Where did you get this information?

However, I do feel that each unit need to, if at all possible, have it´s own feel. In my opinion we should try and avoid too much generic stuff, it is not so much fun and interesting to read and hence counterproductive.

When we get to the Russians we will have to see what we can do with them

As for the militia I will maybe see if I can find something about local Landwehr divisions. That could serve well for this rabble of a unit [:)]

That's just information I've absorbed over the years reading histories of the Eastern Front. I can't point to a specific volume.

A lot of units in WiF don't have a realistic historical designation. Perhaps a majority of them do have one, but plenty don't. In addition to explaining that there was no such unit as the "2nd Guards Garrison Army" (there were a scattering of "Fortress" units in WWII, but not very many officially designated static units), a land unit write-up will have to explain that the "MECH" units are another design innovation of WiF. Aside from German 'Panzergrenadier' regiments I don't think many of the WWII armies used 'armored infantry' units on a large scale, particularly at the corps level. The American army did somewhat with their flexible Combat Commands (Brigades) that could feature two tank+one infantry CC or two infantry+one tank CC in a division. Probably someone else out there would know more about the American OOB than I. But I am fairly sure that some of the German MECH units in WiF have numerical designations that correspond to Panzer corps, in actuality an ARMored corp, so I hope that is mentioned.

People have also pointed out that with the possible exception of the American portion of Operation Market-Garden, there were never any corps-level paradrops in WWII, nor corps level parachute units.

For Japan it won't be too easy to explain the "Kwantung" MOT army, which was neither of MOT type, appeared in the early 30s not the 40s, and as the Soviets proved in 1945, was not elite.

China has several historic unit designations, notably for the Communists, but I suspect many of their designations aren't accurate. Researching these is also exceptionally difficult, I've tried.

Not all of the MILitia are 'rabble'. Good WiF play is to build out the MIL, ship the worst of them off to garrison backwater areas, and then use the White-print ones as cheap losses that are quick to replace. But they are a generic unit, there is no way around that. Original WiF didn't have any unit designations at all, so it is chock full of hard to designate units.

Please stay tuned, we will need to tap into your pool of historic knowledge from time to time I am sure.

MECH corps will probably end in a terrible mess but we will try and find a good solution. First we have to get there.

The militia might be a generic construct but I think I will see if there is any interesting counterpart that we can find and use, like Landwehr.

[trees trees]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

For Japan it won't be too easy to explain the "Kwantung" MOT army, which was neither of MOT type, appeared in the early 30s not the 40s, and as the Soviets proved in 1945, was not elite.

From memory it did contain a fairly high motorized component and was considered high quality before most of its transport and best units were bled off to other fronts, leaving it a shell in Aug 1945.

cool. in the 1930's it probably was a 7-4 White Print. I was really surprised when the Final Edition units came out that the Kwantung name was used on a 1943 unit, that muddies the waters a bit.

it won't be hard to explain the GARR and MECH and other somewhat 'theoretical' units, I would just write something saying that WiF is a game, not a completely detailed simulation of the actual military units of WWII.

[hazpak]

Well the kwantung army (probably better referred to as kwantung area army) was also made up of other units represented in the game already namely the 3rd, 4th and 6th armies. they did have a large motorised component. Interestly 2 armoured divisions were also present in this area army.

haz

[CBoehm]

ORIGINAL: capitan
MECH corps will probably end in a terrible mess but we will try and find a good solution. First we have to get there.

without having researched it ...I always assumed that the german mechs represented something along the lines of their light-divisions ...eg. the division commanded by Rommel during the French campaign.

Basically in WIF its my impression that many of the non-wif corps (atleast in the early period) in reality represents div-sized-units NOT corps ...ei. marines, paratroopers, armor divs etc.

[wosung]

-mechanized units: In WW2 the USSR did field 9 Guards Mechanized Corps (No. 1-9) and 30 Line Mechanized Corps (No. 1-28, 30, 39). 4 of the latter were redesigned as Guards Mechanized Corps. Like the USSR Tank Corps they just were bigger Divisions built up around brigades not regiments: A 1944 Mech Unit had around 15k men and 176 tanks.
John Ellis, World War 2: A Statistical Survey, New York 1995, p. 118-119, , 223.

-LG: Good question. A 1942 (5-3) Marine Corps?? It's no Japanese name (because of the "L"). And "Luzon group" was a 1944-45 Army dominated unit. Perhaps it was thought to be an amalgation of Landing Groups (SNLF), as someone said before.

-Perhaps I can help with the Chinese Units?